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Hey dakka,

I have been running 18 Wraith Imotekh lists for awhile, and they seem to be working pretty well, but it seems the rest of each list leaves something to be desired. Having played the original necrons, I like to put my trust in big unit immortals, especially now that they can be taken as troop choices. However, they seem to need a lot of support to get anywhere useful (veilteks) and Imo messes up their long shots as well. Similarly, annibarges seem like a steal at 90 points for AV13 and two excellent guns, but Imo diminishes them as well, while the first pen drops them to AV11.

So, I have come up with this new list to take the best of the old and combine it with even more killy goodness:

Imotekh 225
Obyron 160
Imo Court chronotek 40, veiltek 60
5 warriors 65
5 warriors 65
5 warriors 65
6 Wraiths 4x coil, 2x base, 250
6 Wraiths 4x coil, 2x base, 250
10 Scarabs 150
3 Spyders 2x basic, 1x gloom, 165
3 Spyders 2x basic, 1x gloom, 165
3 Spyders 2x basic, 1x gloom, 165

Total 1825

Strengths:
- 9 monstrous creatures S6 T6
- max scarab farm outputting 9 bases per turn
- Imotekh list with max CC and min shooting
- 12 wraiths with 8 coils
- mobility through two veils to grab objectives late in the game
- one extra troop squad to walk onto home objective
- can reserve all troop choices to keep them safe with no loss of effectiveness of the overall army
- Obyron is a scythe lord with veil, so can DS a warrior squad, then detach and hunt tanks. He can also veil out of combat.

Weaknesses:
- spyders are slow, but a farm list bides its time anyway and Imo messes up enemy shooting
- a huge squad of scarabs can be unwieldly on some maps and presents a big target
- essentially no shooting capability

Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I forgot to say I call this list the Reapers in reference to Mass Effect.

Also, shooting capability is present through Imotekh's lightning, which can be devastating against mech lists.

oberon needs his other hq counterpart to be super effective and what squad will imoteck go in because i would have them in a bigger squad so they survive longer also this seems to be a very melee oriented list

jbsnv wrote:oberon needs his other hq counterpart to be super effective

Why? Zahndrekh cannot give him anything that can make him significantly more effective than he already is.

and what squad will imoteck go in because i would have them in a bigger squad so they survive longer

Actually bigger squads are easier to sweep because they lose combat by bigger difference. He is better off in a small squad off the map, because his powers work even from reserve. So, he and his chronotek go with one of the warrior squads.

also this seems to be a very melee oriented list

that is the point of the list

I haven't used spyders much so please enlighten me if I have this wrong. The concern I have is if the swarm gets targeted early in game and for some reason gets destroyed or fails morale you won't be able to add more scarabs. You'll be left with 9 admittedly scary MC. But they aren't very fast.

If you swap one unit of wraiths for lychguard you would still get some cc especially if you put Obyron in there. That would free up a FA slot to split your scarabs into two squads at the start.

Thought?

Necrontyr40k wrote:

jbsnv wrote:oberon needs his other hq counterpart to be super effective

Why? Zahndrekh cannot give him anything that can make him significantly more effective than he already is.

and what squad will imoteck go in because i would have them in a bigger squad so they survive longer

Actually bigger squads are easier to sweep because they lose combat by bigger difference. He is better off in a small squad off the map, because his powers work even from reserve. So, he and his chronotek go with one of the warrior squads.

[quote[
also this seems to be a very melee oriented list

that is the point of the list

I think it's an effective take on the type of list your'e aiming for. Obyron is the only thing I would look at. He is an effective character only when you have a plan for him. If its for the veil then a simple veil tek is more effective as I am fairly concerned for your troops. MSU warriors are a design choice but I think you need more than 3 units.

As for Zahndrek he really is lack luster for his points, I've done a lot of play testing with him trying to make him work but unless 6th changes something than I don't see him being worth his points in anything other than a list designed bottom up for him.

MarkCron wrote:I haven't used spyders much so please enlighten me if I have this wrong. The concern I have is if the swarm gets targeted early in game and for some reason gets destroyed or fails morale you won't be able to add more scarabs. You'll be left with 9 admittedly scary MC. But they aren't very fast.

Spyders are S6 T6 3W 2A MCs with 3+ saves. They are also fearless, so no morale failure. Scarabs are also fearless, so they cannot be swept. They just take extra wounds. If there is a danger, it is getting multiassaulted by something hard-hitting with lots of attacks like BA or large units of hammernators, where the scarabs get targeted exclusively but spyders take fearless wounds. But, this can be prevented by proper positioning.

Normally, people place the scarabs in front and have the spyders follow behind with adding more bases every turn. So long as there are no multi-assaults, this is not a bad way to weaken the enemy and eventually charge with the spyders once the scarabs are gone.

Alternatively, I can see the utility of placing the spyders in front to give the scarabs cover saves and also to tarpit assault units, which then leaves the scarabs to move past and eat up the enemy vehicles with entropic strikes.

If you swap one unit of wraiths for lychguard you would still get some cc especially if you put Obyron in there. That would free up a FA slot to split your scarabs into two squads at the start.

That is not a bad idea. I just do not know if the lychguard would do so well in that combination, because Obyron does not have an orb and because lychguard look expensive for 1W models with 3+ save. Undoubtedly though, it is a good way to get lots of PW attacks. Also, I really like wraiths and if I am already making 9 new scarab bases per turn, it does not seem to make much of a difference if I start with 10 or 20.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

alspal8me wrote:I think it's an effective take on the type of list your'e aiming for. Obyron is the only thing I would look at. He is an effective character only when you have a plan for him. If its for the veil then a simple veil tek is more effective

The plan for him is to DS someplace, kill something, then DS out of CC if things get too rough. He can also shuttle warriors between objectives as he is IC. We cannot do the same with a second veiltek as this list has only one court.

as I am fairly concerned for your troops. MSU warriors are a design choice but I think you need more than 3 units.

This is one of the bigger steps forward for me in terms of list-building. Thinking along the same lines made me try to build lists with big immortal units and even consider 20-strong warrior units, hoping that that will help with keeping alive and allow for more RP rolls. The reality is opponents rarely care to shoot troops, especially when wraiths and scarabs are around. Instead, they send strong CC units to sweep the troops due to the abysmal init 2.

My conclusion from my experience is that there are only two very different and extreme approaches that have a chance to work :
- a foot list with massive blobs of warriors and/immortals to saturate fire and hope the enemy is significantly weakened before they reach the line and get hit by hidden sergeants with scythes and res orbs
- any other list, e.g. CC, where troops are a token presence only to grab objectives at the end of the game

For my CC list, the second approach is the one that fits. The idea is to keep the warriors in reserve for as long as possible, and if forced to appear, stick them someplace safe and wait to veil onto objectives when the coast is clear. Anything else, and they get wiped out.

As for Zahndrek he really is lack luster for his points, I've done a lot of play testing with him trying to make him work but unless 6th changes something than I don't see him being worth his points in anything other than a list designed bottom up for him.

I had hopes for him and tried him out in a few games. What he gives is nice (tank hunter, furious charge) but is simply not worth his points in a take-all list.

IMO he is not necessary to make Obyron effective. If you do not need a second court, Obyron is a decent choice. if points permit, Imotekh can buy a CCB and give it to Obyron, which if it gets destroyed does not strand him because of his mantle. I think though that the CCB is going to eat a lot of firepower that would otherwise be mostly wasted through cover and nightfight.

This is the sort of list i'd put out if someone didnt keep reminding me of objectives missions. He would take great pride in taking out my small groups of scoring units and then all the pressure is on to table him which is very hard indeed.

Thats my only criticism if you can call it that.

crayz_d wrote:This is the sort of list i'd put out if someone didnt keep reminding me of objectives missions. He would take great pride in taking out my small groups of scoring units and then all the pressure is on to table him which is very hard indeed.

Thats my only criticism if you can call it that.

He cannot take them out if they are not on the board. Keep them in the reserve and hope they will not show up until turn 4-5. if they do show up, there must be some place where they can hide from shooting, and if they get approached, they can veil away.

Also, even if they are all destroyed, it does not mean you lose the objective game. If you contest all objectives he would otherwise score, then it is a draw. I do not mind draws where my horror list has wiped out most of the enemy.

Finally, you can be sneaky and exchange Obyron with Trazyn, then take a second court veiltek. If the opponent does not know the codex, he may not realize Trazyn is scoring until it is too late.

Ooooo i had a thought, how about trying to get a small squad of flawed ones in the list. I know there hated but with imotekhs bloodswarm they could be a good suicide unit that could take eyes of your assault or tie up a shooty unit as they come in. Was a tactic i was toying with for awhile and not to bad for 65 points.

crayz_d wrote:Ooooo i had a thought, how about trying to get a small squad of flawed ones in the list. I know there hated but with imotekhs bloodswarm they could be a good suicide unit that could take eyes of your assault or tie up a shooty unit as they come in. Was a tactic i was toying with for awhile and not to bad for 65 points.

Yes, flayed ones is a possible way to expand this list for higher point values, as the fast attack and heavy support are maxed out already. They DS without error within 6 inches of Imo's bloodswarm and that is huge taking into account how risky DSing is. But, they have no PW nor rending, and you cannot give them a sergeant with scythe and res orb to beef them up, so they are a unit crippled by bad design.

I am wondering if it is possible to combine the bloodswarm rule with Obyron's mantle. Since he transports as DS and they DS without error, it seems they can benefit from both rules.

Another way to boost this list at higher values is to use a Ctan, e.g. with worldscape and gaze.

Think there was something in the latest faq that goes against that obyron idea :-\

The theme and idea of the list is pretty decent IMO.
However, scarab farms are having a hard time staying alive now as more people realise that S6 templates or basic S6 weapons drop a severe amount of bases at once.

Most DE lists will simply sit back and tear through your farm in the 1st turn or 2.
And with constant poisoned weapons or high strength ones, the spiders arent an issue either.

I think as you said, hammernators will be an issue though.
You have nothing that can really stop them dead.

The wraiths are allways a solid choice though.
However, you can cut a coil from each unit.
3/6 is more than enough to gain the full effect.

I think you're relying too much in the night fighting rules, you re hoping that none if your troops will be shot at and I. My experience then by the third turn the night fighting rules have gone and they're easy pickings. With a few good roles though this list would be very nice.

Jackal wrote:The theme and idea of the list is pretty decent IMO.
However, scarab farms are having a hard time staying alive now as more people realise that S6 templates or basic S6 weapons drop a severe amount of bases at once.

I agree this is a concern. But if they are massing their S6+ weapons on the scarabs, this means my 12 wraiths advance and my 9 spyders advance in full numbers. I WANT them to shoot the scarabs. Also, the scarabs will have cover and because they have stealth, they get 3++ as well. Very few blast weapons ignore cover - off the top of my head only my IG Colossi can do this and I am pretty much the only guy I know that takes them.

Most DE lists will simply sit back and tear through your farm in the 1st turn or 2.

If they sit back and kill up the farm, my wraiths will vandalize their parking lot. Wraiths do a number on AV10 vehicles. Also, it should be pointed out that my farm is more of an afterthought rather than the true focus. The true focus is 9 MCs and 12 Wraiths, all S6 and either 2d6 or rending for pen. I expect massed spyders to be absolutely brutal, especially if there are enough points to give them fab claws for the extra attack.

And with constant poisoned weapons or high strength ones, the spiders arent an issue either.

Yes, that is an issue, but you get 3+ armor and squad cover saves as well.

I think as you said, hammernators will be an issue though.
You have nothing that can really stop them dead.

Hammernators are a problem for everybody. Thankfully it is not a match that comes up that often. I faced a list like that recently, and the game was a draw, because the 12 wraiths last reasonably well with their 3++. But yes, they cannot win on their own and scarabs are a horrible idea against S8.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Taau wrote:I think you're relying too much in the night fighting rules, you re hoping that none if your troops will be shot at and I. My experience then by the third turn the night fighting rules have gone and they're easy pickings. With a few good roles though this list would be very nice.

Night fighting is only important for the first two turns anyway. By turn 3, most of the stuff should be in CC or so close that the opponent can make the detection rolls easily.

If your idea is to just sit back and farm, then nightfighting will be an issue. But then you can take an overlord instead of Obyron to access a second court, and then take a second veiltek and a second chronotek. With two chronoteks attached to Imotekh's squad:

1st turn - automatic
2nd turn - 2/3 becomes 2/3 + 1/3 * 2/3 + 1/3 * 1/3 * 2/3 = (18 + 6 + 2)/27 = 26/27 = 96% chance
3rd turn - 1/2 becomes 1/2 + 1/2 * 1/2 + 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 = (4+ 2 +1 )/8 = 7/8 chance = 88%
4th turn - 1/3 becomes 1/3 + 1/3 * 1/3 + 1/3 * 1/3 *1/3 = (9 + 3 + 1)/27= 13/27 chance = 48%
5th turn - 1/6 becomes 1/6 + 1/6 * 1/6 + 1/6 * 1/6 * 1/6= (36 + 6 + 1)/216= 43/216 chance = 20%

So, with two chronoteks, the nightfighting has:
96% chance to continue into turn 2
84% chance to continue into turn 3
41% chance to continue into turn 4
8% chance to continue into turn 5

So two chronoteks give you 3 turns comfortably and a good shot at 4 turns of night and lightning.