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OCC: I thought the traitors get one kill each.

((OOC: Looking back to make sure, Thor ran it so there would only be one kill per night barring any extra power roles. Unless Drk_O has changed the rules . . . ?))

OCC: Alright then, I might have made a mistake. My theory is thrown out the window

Manchu wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:"Thor is fallen - his manner was crude but his tactics are infallible... he had been actively opposed to Joan, however.

Thor's manner was not crude and his tactics were far from infallible. The fact that you are adopting those same tactics is extremely interesting to me, however, and the way that you are labeling them as infallible is the most interesting point of all. Let me explain why before moving on to your other comments.

Before I allow my breakdown to continue, let me clarify that his strategy was a perfectly sound one, which you argued against with great zeal and very little good argument.

Here are the facts and my conclusions so far (let everyone see exactly how I am thinking about this):

- Thor suspected me more than anyone else. Even when he voted for another to die, he still made it clear to everyone that I was his primary suspect.

Thor abandoned his vote on you because he could see that it had no traction yesterday. I have been suspicious of you for some time, but had to see what transpired between you and Thor before I could make up my mind.

- His logic was extremely shaky and no one else was convinced. No other person voted for me for the reasons that Thor laid out.

Thor's logic was that your method was unhelpful at least, and treacherous at worst. Yet I do not even base my grounds for accusation on that fact. The extensive argument that ensued concerned you and he alone.

- Thor is now dead and it turns out that he was a loyal citizen.

Precisely. It was you that accused him of acting like an Inquisitor, and therefore I was not surprised that it was he who was killed.

- Since Thor and I disagreed more vocally than any other two people, I would be the most natural suspect to have murdered him.

Again, I do not even base my grounds for accusation on that fact.

- But I know that I didn't murder him.

That is not an argument for you to make. No one accused you of murdering him alone, besides.

- Therefore I am being framed by the person who really did murder him.

That is neither a fact nor argument, and hence a rash and inculpative conclusion.

- The person who really did murder him would look for other ways to make the frame look more plausible.

I think it much more likely that the person who murdered him would only be defensive of the fact, and none too quick to theorise on the matter before observing the behaviour of the rest of the party.

- A great way to do that would be to say that Thor knew all along who was going to kill him--namely me.

I didn't know that. I knew that one of you was likely going to die though. Your argument would not have been so heated if both of you had been innocent. It turns out that Thor was killed.

- The real murderer had no reason to try and lynch me on day one since I didn't have enough votes against me at any point to be an easy kill.

This singular 'murderer' you refer to did not attempt to kill you at night either. What an odd conclusion.

- The real murder would have been a bandwagon killer, voting not at the very last minute but close enough to prime the kill, waiting for a real innocent to take the fall.

Of course... you didn't vote for anyone. Of course you would try to forge this questionable 'merit' into an argument. Unfortunately, this statement holds no credibility from the unactuable position you have taken.

- I thought that Thor was trying to do that to me--which is why I wasn't going to vote LotG unless I had a public deal with Thor so he couldn't blame a bandwagon kill on me later or claim--as Arctik Firangi already has today--that I "did not even see fit to vote constructively."

Those who have no need to question their own loyalty have no need to strike 'deals' in order to ensure their survival. You were not even threatened with a lynch. I am interested to hear what 'deal' you would like to bargain with me.

- Turns out that someone betrayed Thor in the way that I thought he would betray me. That person was Arctik.

How did you think Thor would 'betray' you? There was no alliance between you two - that much was obvious.

- The real murderer would also want to make me look guilty by playing up Thor's accusations of me before his death, reminding everyone that we argued a lot so that it would look like I had the greatest motive to kill him.

You have already stated this point in different words, and it does not need to be addressed again.

- The real murder would therefore claim that Thor's methods were the most reliable.

In retrospect? Are you not about to state that I did not support his method?

- Arctik now calls Thor's method's infallible when he didn't find them convincing enough to support yesterday.

I have supported Thor's method in word and in deed. His personal decision to vote for you had nothing to do with me supporting that method, and calling me out for not also voting for you is therefore a void statement.

- As I've said: Only a traitor would work with the perfidious alien. Only a trader would want a weapon that would deprive us of the chance to think, discuss, and vote carefully--or at last as a safety to kill as many of us as possible before he is caught. Arctik both defends the xenos witch and wants to use the bolter.

So you have said, and still remains the fact that you have no evidence to base that on, other than your desperation to restrict the flow of information. You may, for that reason, be horrified to know that I have entered a bargain with the 'xenos witch' to disclose to me the identity of any who have approached it in private, wanting the weapon for themselves.

I do not care if this looks like vendetta voting. I held back from voting too much yesterday and made a bad decision to focus on Thor when I should have been looking more closely elsewhere. Unfortunate as it is, the loyal citizen Thor is dead. But he can no longer distract me from paying attention to the facts.

Moreso that anyone else, you have shown that you react with utmost hostility to being accused. There is only one precedent to this - yesterday - but it is noted nevertheless. You clearly did make a bad decision, and I'm sure that you regret it sorely. I am grateful that you did not kill me when you had the chance. Should I, then, expect to turn up dead tomorrow?

Let him try to run some distraction regarding Lord-Loss and I working together. I challenge him to post the evidence. I've made my decision, until Arctik can refute my conclusions above, but I think you should consider the points I've made very carefully before getting sucked into this sideshow cover-up Arctik is trying to pull.

As with in your pathetic arguments against Thor, your calling me to 'post the evidence' does nothing to hide the fact that I ALREADY HAVE. Are suggesting that the others should not even look into this and make their own decisions, regardless of if it is based on the evidence I have presented and referred to or not? Or are you suggesting that they blindly obey your directive to lynch me, based on no evidence but the petty personal judgements you have managed to scrape together?

Fellow passengers - loyal fellows - demand evidence of this woman or damn her and her blood-soaked lies.

But, them working together could mearly be coincidence and it looks like your vote is relying almost entirely on Lord-Loss and Manchu working together. Without proof that they are it's all just suspicion. What I think we should be looking at is if anyone seemed to be working with Orkeo rather than start throwing out votes we can leave for later if nothing turns up. Just like Manchu seems to have no proof that you actually killed Thor and seems to be relying on that as well.

Your tirade is nothing but smoke and noise. I am confident that all who consider our juxtaposed thought processes will find yours utterly unconvincing. Rather they will find a jumble of near schizophrenic ramblings unconnected by reason or logic. I therefore again stress (although you baselessly accuse me of being desperate to restrict information) that everyone should carefully consider this exchange. I know I have nothing to fear from your kind, at least during the day.

Furthermore, you will soon find from what is most likely your fellow xenos conspirator, the Eldar witch, that I have not attempted to bargain with it or in any other way consort with the damned thing. As is characteristic of your entire convoluted thought process, you attack me with the very thing of which you yourself are guilty.

((OOC: I consider this kind of argument a very strong tell of your guilt))

If you are a loyal human like myself then I pity us terribly. Thor was distraction enough from the real threat and he's gone now. Frankly, your shrill accusations are not arguments just because you claim they are. And they are not worth losing my life over. (Since you have basically suggested that with Thor gone, I'm next.)

But my strong hunch--for the reasons I have openly and clearly explained (again, is this my desperate attempt to restrict the flow of information?)--is that you're guilty. If we lynch you today, barring some third hidden enemy, I think we could be done with this and finally take that foul creature to Terra for its just execution.

n0t_u wrote: Just like Manchu seems to have no proof that you actually killed Thor and seems to be relying on that as well.

I have no proof, but I think I have a pretty strong argument.

Both of you do.

Manchu wrote:Your tirade is nothing but smoke and noise. I am confident that all who consider our juxtaposed thought processes will find yours utterly unconvincing. Rather they will find a jumble of near schizophrenic ramblings unconnected by reason or logic. I therefore again stress (although you baselessly accuse me of being desperate to restrict information) that everyone should carefully consider this exchange. I know I have nothing to fear from your kind, at least during the day.

"The first statement I made today contained and referred to my evidence, so listen up, scum:

Do not continue to insist that my argument is baseless.

Your insistence does not make it so, nor does it hide what I have already said, nor does it disguise the fact that your personal musings are not actual evidence. I once referred to Lord-Loss as schizophrenic - how appropriate that you should try that outfit on me.

Your claim that the others would find my arguments 'utterly unconvincing' can be nothing other than an attempt to manipulate people, because again you have no evidence to base it on. Those loyal among us will make up their own minds, and no one will tell them who to believe."

Furthermore, you will soon find from what is most likely your fellow xenos conspirator, the Eldar witch, that I have not attempted to bargain with it or in any other way consort with the damned thing. As is characteristic of your entire convoluted thought process, you attack me with the very thing of which you yourself are guilty.

((OOC: I consider this kind of argument a very strong tell of your guilt))

Yes, I'm sure you wouldn't have spoken to the xenos - you would not even encourage it to assist us if you knew that it would assist us truthfully. You have nothing to gain, and everything to fear of any revelation it may grant us."

[OOC: This line of argument is also silly, and I thought that much would be obvious. In case no one had noticed, Drk_Oblitr8r is actually running this game. If he was on side with the traitors it would be an irrevocably broken situation. Manchu has been spouting this throughout the entire game, and I have been suspicious of it from the beginning.]

"I am as suspicious of Lord-Loss as ever, but I am going after you because frankly I thought that Lord-Loss had too been sloppy. Ironically, you are proving to be far less adept at hiding your guilt than I had thought."

((OOC: It would be pretty broken to have a pro-Imperium special character, too. My hypo has always been that the Eldar is meant to mislead us. Ignoring it seemed the best way to keep it from being a factor. If it did us pro-Imps a favor, it'd have to do the bad guys one, too, I think.))

I'm done honoring your ravings with a response--which led me to be distracted when dealing with Thor. My argument stands and nothing I do can prevent people from making up their own minds so continue making all the weak, totally baseless claims you like. You're your own worst enemy--right after me, that is, you xenos scum.

Manchu wrote:((OOC: Looking back to make sure, Thor ran it so there would only be one kill per night barring any extra power roles. Unless Drk_O has changed the rules . . . ?))

I don't think I changed the rules, I think it's more I used slightly different ones. I made this a closed game, so there maybe a number of roles that can kill at Night.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

Manchu wrote:- Turns out that someone betrayed Thor in the way that I thought he would betray me. That person was Arctik.

How did you think Thor would 'betray' you? There was no alliance between you two - that much was obvious.

"I wouldn't be so sure," Laughed the Eldar "Thor665 protected Manchu from a Nightkill, should he had been targeted for one. I would argue so much as to say Thor may have even considered you a friend"

I refuse to listen to you, xenos scum. The fact that Thor was a loyal citizen made him your enemy. There is no way I will ever trust your word about your enemies. As we pray in the Litany of Intolerance, the way of the alien is deception and all its paths are snares of ruin.

Manchu wrote:I refuse to listen to you, xenos scum. The fact that Thor was a loyal citizen made him your enemy. There is no way I will ever trust your word about your enemies. As we pray in the Litany of Intolerance, the way of the alien is deception and all its paths are snares of ruin.

"Beleive me, don't beleive me" said the Eldar "in the end, it doesn't matter for me. I die anyway, remember?"

That is exactly what I have been trying to remind everyone--with the qualification that it doesn't make this creature somehow "neutral." At best, it's on its own side and would like to see us slaughter each other endlessly.

Manchu wrote:That is exactly what I have been trying to remind everyone--with the qualification that it doesn't make this creature somehow "neutral." At best, it's on its own side and would like to see us slaughter each other endlessly.

"And to a certain extent, my want of everyone else to be dead can be useful." Said the Eldar "Any remain Genestealers will want all the Imperials dead, and the Imperials want the Genestealers dead. Everyone here wants at least one other here dead"

::Firangi ignores the Eldar::

"Most of what the creature says is nonsense, or irrelevant, but it did answer my specific question yesterday, confirming that there is only one faction of traitors we need to concern ourselves with."

[OOC: Since you're online atm Drky, can you please confirm or deny if we're supposed to know what Thor's role was?]

Arctik_Firangi wrote:[OOC: Since you're online atm Drky, can you please confirm or deny if we're supposed to know what Thor's role was?]

When anyone dies, their role is revealed. I thought there was a rule for it, but there isn't.

[I mean are we supposed to know what a Sanctioned Psyker role specifically does?]

[They get smashed by Ogryns.]

Arctik_Firangi wrote:[I mean are we supposed to know what a Sanctioned Psyker role specifically does?]

I'm not sure really, I don't think it matters either way tbh.

[wut? Are you or are youy not running this gamer?]

Arctik_Firangi wrote:[wut? Are you or are youy not running this gamer?]

I'm running this game, I don't really mind either way.

[Look, I'm sorry to harp on, but I'm asking you, the person who is running the game, a simple question.

What was Thor's role?

We know what his role was called, but we don't know if it's the equivalent of a Mafia doctor or something else.
Alternatively, if we're not supposed to know, tell us that we're not supposed to know. That is all I want clarification on -

I don't really mind either way.

((Its the equivalent of a Doctor))

Arctik_Firangi argueing has made me very suspicous of him.

Vote: Arctik_Firangi

So we've got a serial killer here?

The fun never ends...

whoever killed Thor was doing it probably to remove his clear and sensible thinking from the game....therefore, im thinking that manchu is to blame. you had arguments that lead to me believing something was up....therefore i believe you are behind it, sister.


[b]VOTE MANCHU

Lord-Loss wrote:
Arctik_Firangi argueing has made me very suspicous of him.

Vote: Arctik_Firangi

As expected.

No argument or evidence then? As scum, you obviously have no cause other than to attempt to summon a general air of 'suspicion' around me. Of course you have no solid reasoning behind what you're saying... no reasoning at all, in fact.
The fact that I can present an argument does not automatically present me as guilty. The fact that you did not, does.

Well your argument is based on me and Manchu being partners, because we we're voting for the same person who is now dead, this could all be part of your plan. Kill Thor and frame me and Manchu as the culprits.

You said you suspected Orkeo and you "didn't like him", then he turns up the next day, he's scum but someone must have killed him. ::Spits on the floor::

ghosty wrote:you had arguments that lead to me believing something was up....therefore i believe you are behind it, sister.

Why would I want to remove clear and sensible thinking from the game? I believe that Thor and I have actually been the only two players to engage in protracted explanations of why we have voted the way we have. To be quite honest, Thor (and now Arctik) both use multiple quotes from my arguments to make theirs look longer/more structured, a pretty simple visual trick that many of you seem to have fallen for. Ghosty, people like you have been freeriding lurkers. It still puzzles me that Thor would go after me for being a lurker after pages and pages of responding to his accusations when people like you have barely spoken at all.

If the Eldar spoke truly, which I have no reason to believe, Thor going after me and then shielding me probably meant that he actually suspected that I was innocent but was setting me up as bait for the traitors.

Moreover, what arguments have lead you to the conclusion that I murdered Thor?

Manchu wrote:Moreover, what arguments have lead you to the conclusion that I murdered Thor?

Let him try to run some distraction regarding Lord-Loss and I working together. I challenge him to post the evidence. I've made my decision, until Arctik can refute my conclusions above, but I think you should consider the points I've made very carefully before getting sucked into this sideshow cover-up Arctik is trying to pull.

To be quite honest, Thor (and now Arctik) both use multiple quotes from my arguments to make theirs look longer/more structured, a pretty simple visual trick that many of you seem to have fallen for.

Why would I want to remove clear and sensible thinking from the game? I believe that Thor and I have actually been the only two players to engage in protracted explanations of why we have voted the way we have.

"Which of these contradictory methods and examples would you like your fellows to adhere to, dear Sister?"

[OOC: I've always hated the whole quote-to-pieces thing, but you sort of asked for it]

Lord-Loss wrote:Well your argument is based on me and Manchu being partners, because we we're voting for the same person who is now dead, this could all be part of your plan. Kill Thor and frame me and Manchu as the culprits.

You said you suspected Orkeo and you "didn't like him", then he turns up the next day, he's scum but someone must have killed him. ::Spits on the floor::

"The latter was a brilliant statement, fool. Was there a point? I said that an Ogryn would be dangerous indeed if he were the host of a malevolent alien insurgent. I, for one, am glad he is dead. You seem almost spiteful of the fact.

Neither of you can be linked directly to the death of Thor, but it makes sense that you would want rid of him. Thor was very clever in attempting to protect Joan, as the witch has kindly informed us... supposing he was wrong about Joan's guilt, should the xenos kill her off, he would be very suspect himself. Given his important role, and given that he had no better target, covering himself in that fashion was extremely prudent.

It was fortunate for you two that the target of your wrath was very important to we loyalists. Joan probably thought him an Inquisitor, or at least feared another day of argument against her. Fortunately, he is almost no longer needed. Had I announced my suspicion of Joan yesterday, I would have been a much smarter choice for her to kill, rather than sloppily knocking off the one giving her the most grief. For a very relevant reason that should be frighteningly evident to you by now, I am absolutely assured of Joan's guilt. Any further questions?"