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Then why did you not move through the enemy model in the image you posted earlier?

Edit: Is it your view then that you can move vehicles through other models? Is this a standard practice for you in games?

The image by Solkan? Then it would be a Ram, here are the rules:

Units other than vehicles in the path of a Ramming Tank are Tank Shocked as normal, but if the Ramming Tank comes into contact with an enemy vehicle or building, resolve the collision as follows.
Each vehicle immediately suffers a hit against the armour facing where the other vehicle has impacted (so the Ramming vehicle always uses its front armour).

Oh look, there is even a very clear part about what you can/cannot do with a Vehicle:

the Rammer continues its move until it reaches the declared distance, moves to within 1" of impassable terrain or friendly troops (at which point it stops immediately) or contacts another enemy unit (which it will Tank Shock or Ram again).

So it does seem that the only thing that actually stops a Vehicle from moving is "impassable terrain or friendly troops", anything else is "it will Tank Shock or Ram again".

That's a tank how about non-tank vehicles?

They all have their own specifications, as we can see with skimmers:

Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either.

Walkers and Chariots can charge, etc

None of that is what I asked about can you move through enemy models with any vehicle other than a tank? Is that a common practice for you?

I have never encountered / played with Vehicles that were not tank or skimmer, so there was no issue with the rules as i listed them.

Having thought about it, i remembered the Taurox, fast vehicle but not a tank, and how that vehicle (there might be more i did not know of) would, as you say be able to move through things because of lack of Rules.

I therefore take this one back:

 BlackTalos wrote:

What you keep pointing at is the fact that i am implying, by saying that Vehicle Movement is independent, this rule is ignored:

Models in the Way
A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase, and can never move or pivot (see below) through another model (friend or foe) at any time. To move past, they must go around.

And indeed Vehicle movement is Advanced Rules superseding the Basic Rules of the movement phase. we do indeed need that paragraph for the Taurox.

This does not change the ability to measure vehicle travel from anywhere on the vehicle (even measuring from the driver) as per the Vehicle rules.
If this needs to be clearer:

Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace but stopping several times to scan the surrounding landscape for enemies, communicate with their commanders, identify the best lines of advance and so on.
It is perfectly fine to measure a unit’s move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all. As you move the models in a unit, they can be turned to face in any direction, but if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started the Movement phase.

Is replaced by:

• Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed. This represents the vehicle advancing slowly to keep firing, albeit with reduced firepower.
• Cruising Speed. A vehicle that travels more than 6" and up to 12" is said to be moving at Cruising Speed. This represents the vehicle concentrating on moving as fast as possible – all of its firepower will be wildly inaccurate.
Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than wheeling round. Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as Stationary (however, Immobilised vehicles cannot even pivot on the spot). Pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed. Just like other units, vehicles cannot move over friendly models.

And Rules like

Models cannot voluntarily move off the board.

still apply. (Also noticed that if Vehicle movement rules were fully self-contained, you could indeed drive off the board)

Good start but look at page 13 under Basic vs advanced. All rules under movement, shooting and assault apply to all models unless there is a contradiction. You then measure the same way you would an infantry model and a virtual movement of the bubble. They have never cleared up that you need to move forward in any movement for vehicles, except tank shock. Since you have no restriction on this, which I don't use but has been advocated by some, you can slide the model sideways to the edge of the bubble or measure, pivot and slide forward to the edge of the bubble. You then end up being able to move the bubble as put forth but measured exactly the same as infantry. Even if I don't use all the power sliding I can still nudge any part of my vehicle up against the 6" bubble by measuring from the closest edge moving it out and pivoting so the facing I want is in the direction I want so long as I stay within the 6" measurement of my initial position.

If I can choose a random part to measure to and from I could choose the right front corner start my measurement pivot and move and gain the entire length of the vehicle on top of my move. The restriction that exists concerning the entirety of a base, becoming the hull, works just fine to prevent additional movement gain. It is far simpler and easy to measure to an exact point, like a clear edge, then it does to measure to theoretical point in the middle which your model may or may not have a good reference for.


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In the end what I advocate, and I believe Nem does too, is that don't be tfg and keep it within the measurement you said you were moving. Measure from the closest edge of the hull and move then pivot at the end and you should end up with your access point right at the line if you are looking to disembark. Stop letting people try to justify gaining additional travel distance based off pivoting being free when it no longer is if you move as well.

As an aside I can gain additional distance with nearly all turret based weapons simply by putting my side forward. When I pivot the turret sideways and measure from the end of the barrel which now rests further forward but I have now given the enemy a much easier time to shoot my rear armor. The access point being on the rear is the only time you get that from disembarking and then you have a unit giving a cover save to those shots.

I still disagree with the "bubble method". As Insaniak posted a long time ago, you would move just like Infantry: Place your "bubble" and line yourself up to it, regardless of pivots or anything that happens along the way.

Vehicle rules are clear that you measure "Travel", a word i hope i do not need to define. ALL other rules will say "move". Vehicles movement is the only rule that uses the word "Travel", and i personally believe that this is not accidental.

"If I can choose a random part to measure to and from I could choose the right front corner start my measurement pivot"

I'll stop you right there. you can measure from anywhere, indeed, but for straight movement only. They explain Pivots as a separate matter. After the pivot, you can return to picking any point and continue the measurement...

Why after the pivot and not after the stop but before the pivot so distance gained via a pivot is included?

Because there is no distance gained from the pivot, it's in the rules:

Pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed.

That line is irrelevant if you count the pivots as movement (each one of them).

If we follow the method by Nem, we get this:


I believe the green line is your travel, which is maxed at 12".
If you ignore this, you can place your Rhino "in the bubble" at 12" away (Blue line), with significant movement gain...

For a start I would ask that you go back and read just Nem's posts. The 6" as has been put forth was just for an illustration.

"pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed" Is not the same as "Pivoting from the center does not count as gaining distance" What is does prevent is this:


As you can see if you didn't have to pivot from the center and pivoting doesn't count for movement and you can pivot all you want you could walk across the board legally.

Let's make a few additions to your image:


Looking at the additions I made the blue square is a vehicle that has a 12" weapon on it. If you move the 3" it can't hit the black square but once it pivots it can... How is that not a gain in distance?

Gravmyr wrote:
For a start I would ask that you go back and read just Nem's posts. The 6" as has been put forth was just for an illustration.

"pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed" Is not the same as "Pivoting from the center does not count as gaining distance" What is does prevent is this:


As you can see if you didn't have to pivot from the center and pivoting doesn't count for movement and you can pivot all you want you could walk across the board legally.

I know, i put this on page 3, thanks for reading MY posts:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Naw wrote:
"Pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed."

I do believe that this rule was to stop this:


Whereas this is fully within RaW:

Gravmyr wrote:
Let's make a few additions to your image:


Looking at the additions I made the blue square is a vehicle that has a 12" weapon on it. If you move the 3" it can't hit the black square but once it pivots it can... How is that not a gain in distance?

If you are arguing that the pivots performed along the green line count, the vehicle would travel even less. But you are telling me the Blue line (your interpretation) if fine?
That really does not make any sense? Why would you tell ME to move less when YOU are already moving so far more?


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And i agree, it would indeed create some "gaining of distance", but the exact same amount as i would playing "your way".

If anything, on a turn per turn basis, i think your interpretation gains even more distance:

 BlackTalos wrote:
So i spent some time to get this explained in a picture.
"No part of the vehicle can be further than 6" or you have moved more than you allotted distance"

Now please set up a "long" vehicle, such as a Dark Eldar Raider or Necron Ghost Ark on your Table.
Now assume you move at maximum 6" for 3 turns of the game
All the Red lines on the diagram MUST be 6" (or less)

After these 3 quite simple turns of play, measure the distance (Green lines) from the centre point of the vehicle (or any other part of the Hull you wish to pick)

I can guarantee that your vehicle is now MUCH further than 18" away from its starting position.

Feel free to add a 4th Turn just to make sure the vehicle is facing the same way again, and measure.

I posted my measurements earlier based off your image. The front of GA is about 16" away. The center of the base is about 17" away. Sorry if I was not clear enough looks like you posted a second image between entry and posting of my response. By the way choosing the Ghost Arc is a poor choice as I ignore all terrain and models with it. I have no reason to make those course changes and would simply move in a straight line. Now using the exact same setup following your directions for 6" moves but measuring our way what you get is 12 3/4" center post to center post and 13 3/4" front to front.

You still have not addressed this: "Pivoting is always done from the center of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed" Is not the same as "Pivoting from the center does not count as gaining distance" Which is my point not that you gain a length by pivoting elsewhere.

Edit: Since you are using a majority of the rules from the basic section, as there are few changes, yes your movement should be almost exactly the same as infantry. Unless they are going to give us other rules as to how we handle it we need to follow the infantry rules.

The vehicle section uses move in the line above the rule about travel as well as the Oxford dictionary using move to define travel.... While verbage is sometimes a good indicator not all that helpful in this case. At this point I have to assume that most people have made up their minds as to how this works. I have skimmers nearly exclusively so it does not affect my move in the least. As Nem pointed out they removed the line in the middle of a paragraph about free pivots. You can either try to find/create a bunch of rules or simply follow the infantry ones.

Gravmyr wrote:
I posted my measurements earlier based off your image. The front of GA is about 16" away. The center of the base is about 17" away. Sorry if I was not clear enough looks like you posted a second image between entry and posting of my response. By the way choosing the Ghost Arc is a poor choice as I ignore all terrain and models with it. I have no reason to make those course changes and would simply move in a straight line. Now using the exact same setup following your directions for 6" moves but measuring our way what you get is 12 3/4" center post to center post and 13 3/4" front to front.

Well that kind of proves the point then? measuring using the interpretation you use gains distance. It is the same for the Green line and blue line in the picture with your additions:
I would definitely call out any player that puts his rhino in the Grey area up top, as he is supposed to be, and i always play it, where the first Rhino is: Grey area below.
Indeed the Ghost Ark would ignore all these constraints, but that's because the Skimmer rules say you ignore them.

Gravmyr wrote:
You still have not addressed this: "Pivoting is always done from the center of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed" Is not the same as "Pivoting from the center does not count as gaining distance" Which is my point not that you gain a length by pivoting elsewhere.

As i posted above, the pivoting reference is simply against the picture with the Rhino, and how pivoting on a corner would gain distance, even if you were "only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary".
Someone posted it before:
If you deploy your Ghost Ark sideways along the deployment line and "Simply Pivot" are you not considered Stationary? Do you simply "disregard" this version of "gaining movement"?

Gravmyr wrote:
Edit: Since you are using a majority of the rules from the basic section, as there are few changes, yes your movement should be almost exactly the same as infantry. Unless they are going to give us other rules as to how we handle it we need to follow the infantry rules.

The vehicle section uses move in the line above the rule about travel as well as the Oxford dictionary using move to define travel.... While verbage is sometimes a good indicator not all that helpful in this case. At this point I have to assume that most people have made up their minds as to how this works. I have skimmers nearly exclusively so it does not affect my move in the least. As Nem pointed out they removed the line in the middle of a paragraph about free pivots. You can either try to find/create a bunch of rules or simply follow the infantry ones.

Or simply follow the Vehicle rules because they are not Infantry. A Vehicle moves by measuring it's travel distance. Simple enough, as most players play it that way. This has not changed from 6th.
Measuring from A to B 12" and placing you vehicle on the end is indeed something you can do with skimmers, but not "ground" vehicles.