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What I said, only simpler in a good way. Also a lot more blunt.

The way I would play it is you measure the distance from the furthest point of the hull before pivoting or moving. Then pick up the vehicle, turn it whichever direction you want, and place it so that the furthest point is lined up with the end of the tape-measure.

Interpreting it to mean that you measure a single point on the hull instead of just the hull in general would be unplayable once you factor in pivoting with oddly shaped vehicles.

Hi guys,

This question is for Nem (and anyone who shares the belief can answer as well).

I've thought of how your way of playing it can still be abused. Tell me if this is possible.

Starting position: Ghost Ark facing forward, towards the enemy

It moves 6 inches forward, then pivots 90 degrees.

Then, because of the pivot, the biggest distance moved from the original position is <6 inches, so I get to shift it sideways, closer to the enemy unit.

This gives additional range to the gauss flayers at the side of the Ghost Ark, no? As compared to the other way of moving it (pivot and move model 6 inches.

The OP seems to be correct IMO. It was legal, if cheesy, before. Now the rules have been re-worded to stop this with the explanation of where you can end up and how moving works.

RAW also means that vehicles cannot do 180's to dump troops out or the like. The way I read it no point on the hull can move more than 6" from its point of origin.

 milkboy wrote:
Hi guys,

This question is for Nem (and anyone who shares the belief can answer as well).

I've thought of how your way of playing it can still be abused. Tell me if this is possible.

Starting position: Ghost Ark facing forward, towards the enemy

It moves 6 inches forward, then pivots 90 degrees.

Then, because of the pivot, the biggest distance moved from the original position is <6 inches, so I get to shift it sideways, closer to the enemy unit.

This gives additional range to the gauss flayers at the side of the Ghost Ark, no? As compared to the other way of moving it (pivot and move model 6 inches.

That would mean them moving sideways, which they cannot, as far as I remember. Also the front and back would probably end up more than 6" from it's start point.

RedNoak wrote:

 Leonus wrote:

Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in
the Movement phase counts as Stationary

Pivoting DOES count as movement.

nope. 'Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving' thats a direct quote from the rulebook.

that is pretty clear. its a simple statement of the book, but still its somehow open for debate.

if the rule would say:
Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, IF a vehicle only pivots in
the Movement phase.
then i would agree. but how its acually written.... there is no wiggle room. it explicitly says: Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving.

Had to go check what my rulebook says:
"Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as Stationary"

So yes, I agree that at no point does pivoting count as moving. But that hasn't been the issue.

"Pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed."

Intent is quite clear there. Combined with what was already written, no matter how much pivoting you do, if a part of your vehicle ends up more than 6" from the starting position your vehicle is moving at cruising speed.

Steve steveson, it's not necessary to move sideways. You can do a curve as well, like parking a car in a parallel lot?

Also, the front and back can be within the 6 inches as well. When putting a longitudinal object against a curved wall, it does not necessarily mean the front and backs will be within the wall.

It is a skimmer. Who says it can't move sideways? Also, who says it can't rotate while floating into said position. One of the reasons this argument has issues is due to the fact it wants you to place a model within a distance rather than actually travel said distance. Furthermore, using the OP's system I can shenanigan more range on my hammerhead, albeit giving my enemy side armor unless they are extremely far away.

PS: Because trolling marine players on hammer and anvil. Silly lascannons! Not that I honestly need the shenanigans to troll lascannons though...

 Steve steveson wrote:
The OP seems to be correct IMO. It was legal, if cheesy, before. Now the rules have been re-worded to stop this with the explanation of where you can end up and how moving works.

RAW also means that vehicles cannot do 180's to dump troops out or the like. The way I read it no point on the hull can move more than 6" from its point of origin.

[...]

That would mean them moving sideways, which they cannot, as far as I remember. Also the front and back would probably end up more than 6" from it's start point.

no rules as written say "Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as Stationary"
and since when its forbidden to move sideways?

 Steve steveson wrote:
That would mean them moving sideways, which they cannot, as far as I remember. Also the front and back would probably end up more than 6" from it's start point.

There are absolutely no rules on this, skimmers can "glide" sideways 6" or 12" if they so desire.

Raw it is legal. Fluff-wise it stands. Trying it with Rhinos is also correct RaW, but a little more unorthodox and i'm sure you'll get weird stares =P

Naw wrote:

"Pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed."

Intent is quite clear there. Combined with what was already written, no matter how much pivoting you do, if a part of your vehicle ends up more than 6" from the starting position your vehicle is moving at cruising speed.

thats better

can you give me the page?
so as intended and as written:
measure from the centre and move your distance, while you can pivot from the centre as many and as often as you want.

I forbid sideways moving most of the time, but I also allow pivots at any point to change direction. Fluffy sideways floating I am fine with, though I've never found this advantageous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the rules state to measure from the vehicles hull, which means I could choose to measure from the CENTER of the vehicle and therefore render the entire argument pointless since my vehicle will not have traveled from that point of reference any more than I desire no matter how many times I spin in a circle making tornado noises into the mic, irritating my Shas'O.

Naw wrote:
"Pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed."

I do believe that this rule was to stop this:


Whereas this is fully within RaW:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ventiscogreen wrote:
Also, the rules state to measure from the vehicles hull, which means I could choose to measure from the CENTER of the vehicle and therefore render the entire argument pointless since my vehicle will not have traveled from that point of reference any more than I desire no matter how many times I spin in a circle making tornado noises into the mic, irritating my Shas'O.

That is exactly what the RaW tell you to do, and if you play that way it is completely right and breaks no rules. Some disagree

 BlackTalos wrote:

Naw wrote:
"Pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed."

I do believe that this rule was to stop this:


Whereas this is fully within RaW:

That wasn't legal in 6th. I made that very clear to one of my opponents when he tried it. Center point.

Ventiscogreen wrote:
That wasn't legal in 6th. I made that very clear to one of my opponents when he tried it. Center point.

The first or the second one?
Because the 1st picture is an example of "Wrong" =P

 BlackTalos wrote:

Naw wrote:
"Pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed."

I do believe that this rule was to stop this:


Whereas this is fully within RaW:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ventiscogreen wrote:
Also, the rules state to measure from the vehicles hull, which means I could choose to measure from the CENTER of the vehicle and therefore render the entire argument pointless since my vehicle will not have traveled from that point of reference any more than I desire no matter how many times I spin in a circle making tornado noises into the mic, irritating my Shas'O.

That is exactly what the RaW tell you to do, and if you play that way it is completely right and breaks no rules. Some disagree

Pictures are worth a lot of words.

If you look at that picture and think.."Oh, I don't do that anyways," then this probably wont affect you.

If you look at that picture and think.."I do that all the time! I'm getting robbed of movement!" then you must regretfully throw away your bag of Cheetohs because cheesy got shut down by this rule change.

 insaniak wrote:

Ventiscogreen wrote:
Pivoting is not only used to abuse transports. I've set up some dense cities that required a lot of pivots to get around a corner.

The thing is, if the interpretation being presented here is correct, there is absolutely no need to pivot the tank as it moves. If all that matters is how far the front edge of the tank has travelled from where it started, you would just measure your movement distance from the tank's starting position, pick it up, and put it down facing the appropriate direction against the measured point.

You would need to make sure that there is a wide enough path for it to travel from start to finish, but there would be no need to push it along the table, pivot it around the corner, and then push it along some more. How it gets around the corner becomes completely irrelevant... specifically, the rule that says that you pivot on the centre point instead of wheeling around a side edge would be redundant, because it would never actually come into play.

I understand where your coming from there. Movement is not literally defined as a lateral movement in case or models or vehicles, Vehicles never actually have to move ''forwards'' in the rules, neither do models.

I believe vehicle movement around a corner would be measured exactly as if it were a model. You take a point on the Model / Vehicle (Usually the front because... cinematic - though this is never specified for any type of model), you measure 6'' maybe bending your tape measure to find the end point and then move the model.

This particular situation would be the same for vehicles and models, when turning a 90 degree corner and moving 6inches, a models base may be much <6 from the starting point as the crow flies.

Do note not all non vehicle model bases are round, this applies as much to mawlocs as a tank.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If the normal movement rules do not apply you could measure from the front of the vehicle, move 6 inches and place the vehicle at the far end of the tape measure, something that is specifically disallowed in the rules

If the normal movement rules don't apply, measuring more than 6" is still measuring more than 6".

The movement rules don't define some special way of measuring that only applies to Warhammer 40K.

Except that if the normal movement rules do not apply then this does not apply either: "It’s a common mistake to measure the distance and then place the model on the far side of the tape measure. This is incorrect, as it adds the entire length of the model’s base to the distance moved."

However the rules for Moving vehicles does not override "How to measure movement"

Under the heading 'Movement distance' we have a diagram and the text I quoted earlier in this post.

Also worth noting ''normal'' movement rules include other things like your not allowed to move off the board etc. Movement rules cover many things, if you don't apply them you might as well fly the vehicle across the board and plonk it down where ever you want.

 milkboy wrote:
Hi guys,

This question is for Nem (and anyone who shares the belief can answer as well).

I've thought of how your way of playing it can still be abused. Tell me if this is possible.

Starting position: Ghost Ark facing forward, towards the enemy

It moves 6 inches forward, then pivots 90 degrees.

Then, because of the pivot, the biggest distance moved from the original position is <6 inches, so I get to shift it sideways, closer to the enemy unit.

This gives additional range to the gauss flayers at the side of the Ghost Ark, no? As compared to the other way of moving it (pivot and move model 6 inches.

I'm not sure if all parts of the hull would be in 6inches of the original starting position for that part of the hull, without the model to hand, our 'Cron players don't often take GA's.

but see my note to insaniak above, same concept at any sort of angle and any model.

Nem, here is Milkboy's example:


For our position: It has moved forward 12", then Pivoted on the Green dot "central axis".

If we were to follow your argument, the Red line shows that no part of the Hull is 12" away from the original position of the Hull.

Would you not say that the Positioning of the second Ark (following the Rules as you've interpreted them) is closer in Range to the enemy?

 BlackTalos wrote:
Nem, here is Milkboy's example:


For our position: It has moved forward 12", then Pivoted on the Green dot "central axis".

If we were to follow your argument, the Red line shows that no part of the Hull is 12" away from the original position of the Hull.

Would you not say that the Positioning of the second Ark (following the Rules as you've interpreted them) is closer in Range to the enemy?

Sorry I just edited my post removing the last line before I saw this, my reply would be same as to insaniak - same concept, same rules

 BlackTalos wrote:
Nem, here is Milkboy's example:


For our position: It has moved forward 12", then Pivoted on the Green dot "central axis".

If we were to follow your argument, the Red line shows that no part of the Hull is 12" away from the original position of the Hull.

Would you not say that the Positioning of the second Ark (following the Rules as you've interpreted them) is closer in Range to the enemy?

Except the rear hull of the Ghost Arc is more than 12 inches from where it started in that pic, and as such it is an illegal move.

so here's the thing - if no part of the hull can move more than 6", does that mean that if a monolith (6" square and can only move 6") that turns 180 degrees cannot move any further?

 DeathReaper wrote:

Except the rear hull of the Ghost Arc is more than 12 inches from where it started in that pic, and as such it is an illegal move.

What, exactly, is the rule preventing this?

The way I play and understand the rules, you may rotate your vehicle in any manner desired, so long as no part of the vehicle ends up more than 6"/12" away from where you first measured. My Rhino is facing forward. I measure 6" forward from the tip of its hull and place my finger on that spot. Now I can rotate my Rhino in any direction I desire and place it on the field, being careful to allow no part of the Rhino past my finger. I don't need to measure individual points on the hull and carefully keep track of them before I set down the Rhino.
1) Who cares how far away the rear is currently from where it used to be?
2) What rule am I missing that disallows this?

This is the rule preventing this:

''As you move the models in a unit, they can be turned to face in any direction, but if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started the Movement phase. Models cannot voluntarily move off the board.''

With vehicle we use the Hull instead of the base, so no part of its hull can finish the move more than 6" (Or 12 in the case of a vehicle moving cruising speed) away from where it started the Movement phase.

'That rear of the hull looks to be about 18 inches from where it started the movement phase according to the scale in the pictures.

"from where it started" : is the word "it" here referring to "part of its base" or the point you measured from?

There are some practical problem if we have to measure all parts of the hull to make sure that no part moved more than permitted...

 Dracos wrote:
"from where it started" : is the word "it" here referring to "part of its base" or the point you measured from?

There are some practical problem if we have to measure all parts of the hull to make sure that no part moved more than permitted...

Not really, just measure from the point that will have to move the furthest in order to complete the manoeuvre.

So if you're going to drive forwards and do a 180 degree turn, measure from the back because no bit of the vehicle can possibly end further than that.

In regard to the ghost ark, it is again common sense that if the vehicle ends perpendicular to its initial position and the front of the vehicle has moved its maximum of 12" then the rear must have moved more than 12". Pretty basic Trigonometry to be honest

 DeathReaper wrote:
This is the rule preventing this:

''As you move the models in a unit, they can be turned to face in any direction, but if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6" away from where [that part of its base] started the Movement phase. Models cannot voluntarily move off the board.''

Yep, that does it. I diagrammed this sentence out, and while it's a very shoddy sentence, the pronoun "it" is referring to the part of the base (ie. hull), which makes DR's reading correct.

Dracos: you've hit on the actual issue.

With the rule, it's pretty much impossible to pivot (along the center axis) at the end of your movement if you've moved the maximum legal distance forward. Which means that if you intend to do a 180 degree pivot at the end then you have to reduce your movement by the length of the vehicle. Have a 4" long vehicle? Then your total forward movement is 2".

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Dracos wrote:
"from where it started" : is the word "it" here referring to "part of its base" or the point you measured from?

There are some practical problem if we have to measure all parts of the hull to make sure that no part moved more than permitted...

Not really, just measure from the point that will move the furthest.

So if you're going to drive forwards and do a 180 degree turn, measure from the back because no bit of the vehicle can possibly end further than that.

In regard to the ghost ark, it is again common sense that if the vehicle ends perpendicular to its initial position and the front of the vehicle has moved its maximum of 12" then the rear must have moved more than 12". Pretty basic Trigonometry to be honest

Assuming you know the end position you want when you start moving...

 Dracos wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Dracos wrote:
"from where it started" : is the word "it" here referring to "part of its base" or the point you measured from?

There are some practical problem if we have to measure all parts of the hull to make sure that no part moved more than permitted...

Not really, just measure from the point that will move the furthest.

So if you're going to drive forwards and do a 180 degree turn, measure from the back because no bit of the vehicle can possibly end further than that.

In regard to the ghost ark, it is again common sense that if the vehicle ends perpendicular to its initial position and the front of the vehicle has moved its maximum of 12" then the rear must have moved more than 12". Pretty basic Trigonometry to be honest

Assuming you know the end position you want when you start moving...

Why wouldn't you? If you aren't going to think your move through before you start moving then the rules shouldn't help you for making a bad decision. And you can always return the vehicle back to it's starting position and move to a different place as long as you haven't finished the move.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Why wouldn't you? If you aren't going to think your move through before you start moving then the rules shouldn't help you for making a bad decision. And you can always return the vehicle back to it's starting position and move to a different place as long as you haven't finished the move.

It's not that I don't think my moves through, but that there will be some times where the exact orientation of the model in its end position is not solidified when you start moving. There is, AFAIK, no rule supporting the position that you can "return the vehicle back to it's starting position and move to a different place as long as you haven't finished the move". Got a citation for that?

 Dracos wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Why wouldn't you? If you aren't going to think your move through before you start moving then the rules shouldn't help you for making a bad decision. And you can always return the vehicle back to it's starting position and move to a different place as long as you haven't finished the move.

It's not that I don't think my moves through, but that there will be some times where the exact orientation of the model in its end position is not solidified when you start moving. There is, AFAIK, no rule supporting the position that you can "return the vehicle back to it's starting position and move to a different place as long as you haven't finished the move". Got a citation for that?

second paragraph under Movement Distance section of the rulebook wrote:It is perfectly fine to measure a unit’s move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all. As you move the models in a unit, they can be turned to face in any direction, but if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started the Movement phase.

So you could measure the distance, start to move it, change your mind and move it somewhere else.

I believe it came up in another thread in the instance of starting to move a squad one way, then moving the moved models back in order to move a different way.