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We are completely agreed on how to measure then. If you pick the very centre point of the vehicle, measure 3" in a direction, pivot around centre point, measure centre point 2", pivot on centre point, measure 1", you have totaled 6", even if the 3" was forward and the 1" backwards, and you are actually where you started. If you decide to "complete" that movement, you have moved 6", even if you are in the exact same place.

ED: If you always pivot on the centre point, there should be "no movement"

ED2: I don't think the green area is the movement bubble. Solkan should comment but i think the grey area or green area are not to be taken in account?

My problem with saying you always measure to the center in movement means you you have set precedent to measure there for all measurements to the hull. Do you require charges to reach that same point?

The way I interpreted it was say I was moving in direction A. I measure the distance I am moving from the point on my hull closest to direction A and when I have finished my move, no part of the vehicles hull may be past that point. Ergo I could move the vehicle spinning around as if it were a spinning top but it wouldn't matter as long as my farthest point was not beyond the invisible "line" it is not allowed to cross.

 Bolg da Goff wrote:

EDIT: to clarify what I am saying: pivots are free, but any distance gained counts as movement unless you are only pivoting. You may pivot as you want for free but movement gained from such pivots are movement, and movement is movement, so it counts towards your total distance for sure.

So you're saying that this rhino can go further

than this rhino

because it ends up facing the same direction?

And if the red line is drawn further than the rhino can move, please indicate either where the rhino is supposed to stop, or how to calculate where it runs out of movement. Because that red path marked in that diagram is where I want to move the model, and I'm trying to figure out according to your interpretation how many turns it's going to take to get there.

Gravmyr wrote:
My problem with saying you always measure to the center in movement means you you have set precedent to measure there for all measurements to the hull. Do you require charges to reach that same point?

No, i made quite a big point earlier that "Distances" is not the same as "movement".

Distances: Measuring from Unit A to Unit B (charge distances, etc)

Movement: Measuring from a model "in a direction", "up to a distance"


The BRB explains very well how we measure distances. It also describes movement for Based models pretty well. Vehicle, as per this thread, is slightly less clear, but I think there is enough wording to make sense of it.
There is nothing saying exactly where you measure movement from, only that the Travel of what you measure does not exceed a distance. I would suggest taking it from the centre-point, only because the centre-point "does not move" when you Pivot (around the centre point).

You measure from the hull just the same as the wording for distances. Using two separate locations when measuring to or from the hull sounds like you are intentionally changing it to gain something.

Movement for vehicles per the brb is exactly the same for vehicles as it is for based models with certain exceptions. Stating that they are somehow less exact also sounds like someone trying to gain something.

What is the first heading under The Movement Phase in the BRB? Movement Distance. How can you have movement separate from distance if that is not only the basics for movement but the descriptive illustration for proper movement?

No i am separating the "Measuring distances" at the beginning of the book with "Movement Distance"

Also not how the Vehicle section separates "Vehicle Movement" and "Measuring distances"

One tell you how to move a vehicle, the other says you measure to the Hull when "measuring distances", ie imo: not when you are moving.

Then you have no permission to measure at all when moving if you are separating the two..... Virtually every rule in this book has to interact with other applicable rules or there is no way to viably do anything. Since there is no section in the assault or shooting sections for it I assume you have your own rules about rerolls and modifying dice rolls.

You are extending the argument... Of course you always use the Rules for measurement of distances for pretty much the entire book.

But can you say that movement is measuring a distance?
A distance to what? A point on the grass?

I disagree. When measuring movement, the rules are clear:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Models move up to 6" in the Movement Phase. (...) if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started in the movement phase.

Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed.

You do not need the page on "measuring distances" for this.


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If you argue to me that you need the page on measuring distances, then i have a few questions for you:

Is a standard infantry unit within 6" for it's movement destination? does it need to be "wholly within"? can you count the entire unit "within" 6" of that point?

Etc... Questions that make absolutely no sense, because "Measuring Distances" is NOT involved in measuring movement.

Models move individually not as a unit otherwise vehicle squadrons are basically fudged same as a unit made up of a large number of infantry models. If you do not use the two together you have no way to measure vehicles without a base as you do not have permission to measure their travel from the hull, the only section that speaks about measurement is the basic movement which does not mention measuring hulls only bases. As you are the one separating them please cite a rule that allows you to measure movement from anything but a base.

Indeed, the movement rules talk about bases, which vehicles do not have.

To move a vehicle, you have to use these rules:

VEHICLES IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE
The distance a vehicle moves influences how accurately it can fire its weapons, as described later.
• Stationary. A vehicle that remains Stationary will be able to bring its full firepower to bear on the enemy.
• Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed. This represents the vehicle advancing slowly to keep firing, albeit with reduced firepower.
• Cruising Speed. A vehicle that travels more than 6" and up to 12" is said to be moving at Cruising Speed. This represents the vehicle concentrating on moving as fast as possible – all of its firepower will be wildly inaccurate.
Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than wheeling round. Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as Stationary (however, Immobilised vehicles cannot even pivot on the spot). Pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed. Just like other units, vehicles cannot move over friendly models.

You simply measure the travel of the vehicle. Where you measure is not mentioned, and all parts of the vehicle will travel the exact same distance, so it does not make a difference.

You are never told to measure vehicle movement from the Hull only. That is an assumption.

So no permission then.

Gravmyr wrote:
So no permission then.

It's right there:

A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed.

Do i need to remind you of this? :

Such vehicles do not fight in the same manner as other models – that’s why their rules have been compiled in this section.

Why are you even talking about bases when we are discussing vehicle movement?

That is not permission to measure from the hull to calculate distance. Please cite a rule in that section allowing you to measure the hull to do so. Why are you measuring from the hull to determine distance when you do not have permission to do so?

I am pointing out the flaw behind the idea that you can somehow separate movement from distance.

There is no flaw. You are told to measure the travel of the vehicle.

You are told that you can move "in vectors" (if that makes grasping the concept easier?) and that you can also pivot. If you never pivot, by RaW your vehicle is pointing in the exact same direction as you were before moving.

The BRB has 2 sets of rules, completely separate from each other:
Movement
Vehicle movement

Both are completely self-contained rulesexplaining how you perform movement.
There should be no need for any other section if you are alone in the middle of a 2ft by 2ft table of just static grass...

Then you can drive vehicles through other models and within 1" of enemy units if those two sections are separate. We know that's not right.

Both are not completely self contained....and there is nothing to support that.

They have modifications to the standard movement rules, which are specifically (or in some peoples opinions not so specifically) amended in the vehicle section but they like all units obey the general movement rules. This is even shown in the first diagram for movement distance when they reference vehicles.

for all distances you measure to and from the hull for vehicles, so movement distance is to and from the hull.

you are never told to measure the travel of the vehicle, that is fabricated.

you are told that a vehicle that travel a certain distance only fires with x rules and a vehicle that travels another certain distance fires with y rules.

there is no such thing as measuring travel distance, the only time travel is used in the vehicle section is in relation to how many weapons a vehicle can fire. But by the time you figure out how far a vehicle travelled you have already moved the vehicle using the normal movement rules, not some imaginary movement where you measure every inch one at a time and get to pivot and not measure the change in distance from the pivot. then 1 by 1 measure some more inches...

If you check the beginning of the book there are 2 sections:

MEASURING DISTANCES
In games of Warhammer 40,000, distances are measured in inches (") with a tape measure or measuring stick. You can always check any distance at any time. This allows you to check whether your units are in range of their target before they attack. After all, the soldiers are led by seasoned veterans who can accurately judge the range of their weapons, even if we, their generals, cannot.

Section 1, let you know how the entire game works in Inches.

Section 2, distance:

Distances between models and all other objects (which can be other models, terrain features and so on) are always measured from the closest point on one base to the closest point on the other base. Distances between units are always measured to and from the bases of the closest models in each of the units (see the diagram below).

I hope i've made it clear?

Not at all you said movement is separate from distance, and have not cleared up the fact that by your logic I can drive through enemy models and within 1" of enemy models.

Gravmyr wrote:
Then you can drive vehicles through other models and within 1" of enemy units if those two sections are separate. We know that's not right.

Did you seriously not read my post?

It's the last line:

VEHICLES IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE
The distance a vehicle moves influences how accurately it can fire its weapons, as described later.
• Stationary. A vehicle that remains Stationary will be able to bring its full firepower to bear on the enemy.
• Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed. This represents the vehicle advancing slowly to keep firing, albeit with reduced firepower.
• Cruising Speed. A vehicle that travels more than 6" and up to 12" is said to be moving at Cruising Speed. This represents the vehicle concentrating on moving as fast as possible – all of its firepower will be wildly inaccurate.
Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than wheeling round. Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as Stationary (however, Immobilised vehicles cannot even pivot on the spot). Pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed. Just like other units, vehicles cannot move over friendly models.

Which does not cover enemy models now does it. How about moving within 1 "? Didn't in the drawing you posted earlier why did you go around that enemy model?

you are aware that the vehicle section says you use the hull instead of base for measuring distances.

vehicle movement is not contained outside of normal movement rules, there is nothing about measuring as you travel.

blaktoof wrote:
Both are not completely self contained....and there is nothing to support that.

They have modifications to the standard movement rules, which are specifically (or in some peoples opinions not so specifically) amended in the vehicle section but they like all units obey the general movement rules. This is even shown in the first diagram for movement distance when they reference vehicles.

Distances, yes. movement, No, please double check.

blaktoof wrote:


for all distances you measure to and from the hull for vehicles, so movement distance is to and from the hull.

Distance between the Hull and what? imaginary thin air?

blaktoof wrote:


you are never told to measure the travel of the vehicle, that is fabricated.

Apart from the RaW where it says "travel"

blaktoof wrote:


you are told that a vehicle that travel a certain distance only fires with x rules and a vehicle that travels another certain distance fires with y rules.

In the shooting paragraph, yes i agree. We are discussing Movement Phase here...

blaktoof wrote:


there is no such thing as measuring travel distance, the only time travel is used in the vehicle section is in relation to how many weapons a vehicle can fire. But by the time you figure out how far a vehicle travelled you have already moved the vehicle using the normal movement rules, not some imaginary movement where you measure every inch one at a time and get to pivot and not measure the change in distance from the pivot. then 1 by 1 measure some more inches...

• Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed. This represents the vehicle advancing slowly to keep firing, albeit with reduced firepower.

If you continue to simply ignore Rules, we can stop right here....


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Gravmyr wrote:
Which does not cover enemy models now does it. How about moving within 1 "? Didn't in the drawing you posted earlier why did you go around that enemy model?

Ok, debunking your last "argument" against:

If you were forbidden to be within 1" of an enemy unit, explain to me how tank shock works?

having the word travel doesnt add the words "you measure travel inch by inch with free pivots in between"

the word travel is in a subsection under "the distance a vehicle moves" ironically it states it affects how many weapons the vehicle can fire then goes into the subsection where it mentions "a vehicle that travels up to 6 is said to be going combat speed and may fire" obviously travel is only used here in combination with the above "movement distance" to determine weapon firing and in this subsection where travel is used has nothing to do with actually moving the vehicle but rather what happens to the vehicles shooting when the vehicle had a certain movement distance.

how did the vehicle get that movement distance? by using the rules from the movement section for how far a unit moves, using their movement distance.

if we then look under vehicles and measuring distance we see that instead of the base we use the hull and measure to and from the hull.

as there is no rule anywhere that says we measure a vehicle traveling incriments its quite easy to figure out how to place a vehicle that moves a certain distance.

we measure from the hull, as it is used instead of the base per the RAW, extend our tape measure out to where we want it to go within 6" in any direction, and put the vehicle so the hull is in the same orientation at the end of the tape measure as the begining.

we have no moved 6" with pivots in between.

please find anywhere that it describes this made up we measure in increments to see how far a vehicle travels.

You follow the rules for it which gives exceptions to drive over enemy models and be within 1".

Enemy models that are in base contact with a vehicle (not including Walkers or Chariots) are not locked in combat and can therefore be shot during the Shooting phase. If the vehicle pivots on the spot (to shoot at its attackers for example), move these models out of the way as you shift the vehicle and then place them back into base contact with the vehicle – or as close as possible if there is no room. Units that still have models in base contact with a vehicle during its Assault phase may attack it again, just as in a normal ongoing combat (including all models that would count as engaged in a normal assault).

From the vehicles in close combat rules. If you could not be within 1" of an enemy, as a vehicle, none of this would make sense when it is your turn...

A Tank Shock is an exception to the rule that enemy models cannot be moved through.

Does this give an exception to the 1" rule? no, because Vehicles do not have it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
having the word travel doesnt add the words "you measure travel inch by inch with free pivots in between"

the word travel is in a subsection under "the distance a vehicle moves" ironically it states it affects how many weapons the vehicle can fire then goes into the subsection where it mentions "a vehicle that travels up to 6 is said to be going combat speed and may fire" obviously travel is only used here in combination with the above "movement distance" to determine weapon firing and in this subsection where travel is used has nothing to do with actually moving the vehicle but rather what happens to the vehicles shooting when the vehicle had a certain movement distance.

how did the vehicle get that movement distance? by using the rules from the movement section for how far a unit moves, using their movement distance.

if we then look under vehicles and measuring distance we see that instead of the base we use the hull and measure to and from the hull.

as there is no rule anywhere that says we measure a vehicle traveling incriments its quite easy to figure out how to place a vehicle that moves a certain distance.

we measure from the hull, as it is used instead of the base per the RAW, extend our tape measure out to where we want it to go within 6" in any direction, and put the vehicle so the hull is in the same orientation at the end of the tape measure as the begining.

we have no moved 6" with pivots in between.

please find anywhere that it describes this made up we measure in increments to see how far a vehicle travels.

You are confusing 2 sections of the Rulebook.

VEHICLES IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE
The distance a vehicle moves influences how accurately it can fire its weapons, as described later.
• Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed. This represents the vehicle advancing slowly to keep firing, albeit with reduced firepower.

and

VEHICLES IN THE SHOOTING PHASE
Moving and Shooting with Vehicles
All vehicles have the Relentless special rule, but the number (and accuracy) of the weapons a vehicle can fire in the Shooting phase depends on how fast it moved in that turn’s Movement phase, as detailed below.
• A vehicle that moved at Combat Speed may fire a single weapon using its Ballistic Skill. The vehicle can also fire Snap Shots with other weapons if it wishes, though, of course, it cannot fire any weapons that cannot be fired as Snap Shots.

Two very separate sections.

And yes, if you have to Zig-Zag through a City board, you measure every movement, not just "Start to finish".

You mean the enemy having had permission to move to within 1" and not being forced to move? You can't move to within 1" is not the same as not being allowed to be within 1".

If you continue reading you have to stop outside of 1" if you come upon an enemy vehicle. Per the BRB they apparently include the 1" as part of the model or it would have it's own entry under deep strike.


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Still haven't covered why you went around the enemy model not through it if it doesn't exist for vehicles.

 insaniak wrote:

The thing is, if the interpretation being presented here is correct, there is absolutely no need to pivot the tank as it moves. If all that matters is how far the front edge of the tank has travelled from where it started, you would just measure your movement distance from the tank's starting position, pick it up, and put it down facing the appropriate direction against the measured point.

You would need to make sure that there is a wide enough path for it to travel from start to finish, but there would be no need to push it along the table, pivot it around the corner, and then push it along some more. How it gets around the corner becomes completely irrelevant... specifically, the rule that says that you pivot on the centre point instead of wheeling around a side edge would be redundant, because it would never actually come into play.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gravmyr wrote:
You mean the enemy having had permission to move to within 1" and not being forced to move? You can't move to within 1" is not the same as not being allowed to be within 1".

If you continue reading you have to stop outside of 1" if you come upon an enemy vehicle. Per the BRB they apparently include the 1" as part of the model or it would have it's own entry under deep strike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Still haven't covered why you went around the enemy model not through it if it doesn't exist for vehicles.

I'm sorry but this post does not make much sense?

the BRB includes the 1" as part of the model? have you got quotes for this, i've never heard of this? and in what way, charging in close combat? moving?

Utterly confused here...

I assume then you can't cite permission. I told you before I measure how far I move unless there is nothing in the way. What I am arguing is the stance that vehicle movement is completely separate from infantry movement. When I measure I include the distance gained via the pivot against how far I move. I don't pick a random place on the model to measure from, I measure from the closest direction I am going then pivot and move.

 insaniak wrote:

The thing is, if the interpretation being presented here is correct, there is absolutely no need to pivot the tank as it moves. If all that matters is how far the front edge of the tank has travelled from where it started, you would just measure your movement distance from the tank's starting position, pick it up, and put it down facing the appropriate direction against the measured point.

You would need to make sure that there is a wide enough path for it to travel from start to finish, but there would be no need to push it along the table, pivot it around the corner, and then push it along some more. How it gets around the corner becomes completely irrelevant... specifically, the rule that says that you pivot on the centre point instead of wheeling around a side edge would be redundant, because it would never actually come into play.

But as Insaniak clearly said on as early as page 2, that is not the correct way of seeing things.

What you keep pointing at is the fact that i am implying, by saying that Vehicle Movement is independent, this rule is ignored:

Models in the Way
A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase, and can never move or pivot (see below) through another model (friend or foe) at any time. To move past, they must go around.

I then ask you, why do the Vehicle RaW say this:

If the vehicle pivots on the spot (...), move these models out of the way as you shift the vehicle and then place them back into base contact with the vehicle – or as close as possible if there is no room.

If quoted Rule 1 applied to vehicles, doing quoted Rule 2 would be illegal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

move the Tank straight forwards until it comes into contact with an enemy unit

This would also be completely illegal.

And so would this:

If some enemy models in the enemy unit would end up underneath the vehicle when it reaches its final position (it makes no difference whether the unit is Falling Back or not), these models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance