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Ok, I'm confused.

You say you can pivot as much as you want during the move (not before, not after - fine with this), but then you say no part of the hull can be further than 6" away from where it began.


That's the issue. If you take that literally, then if my rhino starts facing toward you, I cannot go forward 6" and have my rear facing you. That means the rear part of my hull moved quite far, and the front part of my hull moved not far at all.

I would be fine with this, but if you really truly mean no PART can go further than 6" then the vehicle really can't change orientation at all. Saying you can freely pivot as much as you like as you move and saying no part of the hull can move more than 6" from where it began are directly contradictory, if you take the latter literally.

where do you get that statement

pivoting is done as you move, not before or after.

from this sentence??

"Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than wheeling round. Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as Stationary"

and there is this..

As you move the models in a unit, they can be turned to face in any direction, but if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started the Movement phase.

yeah, there it is indeed: INFANTRY movement rules, magically becoming VEHICLE movement rules

which by the way... IF they would be used in that exact wording in conjunction with vehicle rules:
you couldnt turn EITHER intantry or walkers after they moved 6"

as shown in this repeatedly posted picture:
("no part of its base can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started the Movement phase.")

Gravmyr wrote:
You already know before the pivot where you plan to move. Start measuring before you pivot then pivot and place the facing you want toward the direction you want and move the distance you wish to move. This has been posted in here as a valid workaround at least twice now.

If i start measuring any vehicle movement from the center point of the vehicle, do whatever i want and place the center point exactly 6" away from the beginning, i will still "gain movement" as is so often despised.

I will follow those exact rules to the letter and still produce what is trying to be "avoided".

blaktoof wrote:
this does not mean the front of the vehicle has to be where the front is, you can move a rhino pivot 180 and be 6" from where you started. your front where your rear was and your rear where your front was and no part of the hull has moved past the 6" you are allowed to move, you are just facing the other way. As long as no part of the hull is more than 6" away from where it started you are still moving 6".

Basically, this one:

TimmyIsChaos wrote:


I think this is what a vehicles maximum movement looks like.

No part of the vehicle can end outside the line which is 6" away from each part of the hull if you want to remain at combat speed.

Which is indeed how i understand the position of pretty much most posters of the thread "Against" the "pivot to gain distance".
But that position lets you "gain distance" on Ghost Arks, so it's not ideal either.

@Spellbound: RAW yes. In the end you need to come up with an acceptable way of moving between gaining movement and restricted movement. Measure the distance and move up to there. BlackTalos kindly reposted the image that illustrates it well.

@RedNoak: Those Three sentences yes. To be more clear pivoting is part of the movement.

@BlackTalos: I've never put forth measuring from the center only people trying to retain additional movement have put that type of measurement forward. I advocate measuring from the closest edge and going from there just as the image you kindly reposted has movement being done. As an aside how does a GA gain distance from this interpretation?

It's nice to see that the "Pivoting is movement" scheme still produces results that only make sense if you don't actually have any terrain to move around.

Gravmyr wrote:

@RedNoak: Those Three sentences yes. To be more clear pivoting is part of the movement.

that wasnt the question. he said pivoting cannot be done before you actually move forward and once you stopped, you cant pivot anymore.

and you guys are still using infantry based rules to figure out how pivoting is measured.

As an aside how does a GA gain distance from this interpretation?

 solkan wrote:
It's nice to see that the "Pivoting is movement" scheme still produces results that only make sense if you don't actually have any terrain to move around.

Disagree. Does any other model movement not make sense if you need to move around terrain? Were advocating you move like any other model. Your allowed to pivot -as you move-. Some how people are really confused how to measure around a corner, and then how you move a vehicle from there from the first point to the end point. Some mix up with measuring distances, and moving.

Spellbound - The structure of that sentence was brought up it could also mean no part of the base could be more than 6'' from where any part part of the base started, this makes a lot of sense in terms of vehicles and models (with or without circular bases). It was noted we don't measure bit of the bases - in which case a measurement of 6inches from the hull, and movement with pivots to the end point's will make this impossible to actually break under that interpretation.

Blacktalos - Measuring from the center of the hull has not been in since 3rd ed I think, or maybe 4th

Red - We have rules for measuring distances, and they are in no way related to vehicles having the ability to pivot as they move. You measure distances before you move , and you can pivot as you move, not as you measure. There is more than just the movement rules which touch on how to measure distances in 40k.

Distances between models and all other objects (which can be other models, terrain
features and so on) are always measured from the closest point on one base to the closest
point on the other base. Distances between units are always measured to and from the
bases of the closest models in each of the units (see the diagram below)

The distance between the Space Marine unit and the hull of the Ork Trukk is 5
inches. We normally say that the Trukk is within 5" of the Space Marine unit.
Note that we always measure to the hull of a vehicle.

Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed.

Quite simply we know what 6'' is in terms of measurement, it is 6'' from the hull, to the end of the 6'' tape measure. You measure distances before you start moving models, ergo the tape measure is down before you pivot. At that point you can move the vehicle, including pivoting it, to the end point of that tape measure in the direction you wish to go. There are no base or infantry related rules in there.

@RedNoak: We are using the basic movement rules and using the exceptions presented in the vehicle section just as the rule book puts fourth. Without those basic rules you just have distances to move without other rules. You need to provide a line from the vehicle section that tells you not to use any of those rules if you want to ignore them.

 Nem wrote:

Blacktalos - Measuring from the center of the hull has not been in since 3rd ed I think, or maybe 4th

Distances between models and all other objects (which can be other models, terrain
features and so on) are always measured from the closest point on one base to the closest
point on the other base. Distances between units are always measured to and from the
bases of the closest models in each of the units (see the diagram below)

The distance between the Space Marine unit and the hull of the Ork Trukk is 5
inches. We normally say that the Trukk is within 5" of the Space Marine unit.
Note that we always measure to the hull of a vehicle.

Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed.

Quite simply we know what 6'' is in terms of measurement, it is 6'' from the hull, to the end of the 6'' tape measure. You measure distances before you start moving models, ergo the tape measure is down before you pivot. At that point you can move the vehicle, including pivoting it, to the end point of that tape measure in the direction you wish to go. There are no base or infantry related rules in there.

I disagree with that interpretation of movement.

P10 and Distances is just that: Distances. It is not relevant to actual movement of the models. It is a distance between 2 objects, not 1 Object in movement.

The only Rule set we have for movement is on p18, and

Models move up to 6" in the Movement Phase. (...) if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started in the movement phase.

Quite clear for models on bases.

Page 73 then specifies how this works for vehicles. Notice also that P72 and "Vehicles and measuring distances" is a separate paragraph completely, irrelevant to movement, but contains the wording "measure to and from their hull".

Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed.

And the paragraph following mentioning Pivots, etc

So what part of the vehicle travels "up to 6" "? I do not see any issue with choosing the Center point of the vehicle in measuring that Travel?



Automatically Appended Next Post:


I would emphasise that point by saying this:

We are told to measure a vehicle's Travel distance. I assume here you know the definition of "travel" and how it is different to "move": one cares not how you get from A to B, but the other measures every millimeter of the journey as a quantifiable distance.

So how do you measure a travel distance with a point on the vehicle if:

Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point

If you may pivot as many times as you like, measuring the travel distance at any other location than the centre-point will exponentially increase.


And so I underline again my position that you measure exactly how far, in inches, the centre-point has moved, and that is your "travel" distance. However many times you decide to Spin-top...

WHFB players seem to do ok measuring how far they move when they pivot - just saying....

lol, completely different method and rules.... Utterly and completely irrelevant =P

I'm sorry but the point is not irrelevant. Some in this thread seem to think they're heads are going to explode if they have to play movement as the rules seem to suggest. I'm simply pointing out that WHFB players manage to get their units around the battlefield without requiring mental therapy afterwards. It's really not that hard to move and pay for your pivots.

But it's completely different.

WHFB unit wheel and move accordingly. They are allowed 1 pivot at times (or more) but it is nothing like 40k movement.

40k movement has its own set of rules that let you run around in little circles until you are 6" away from where you started.

The measurement rules are vaguely to do with movement considering we need to know how to measure 6inches, but directly concerned with how anything moves no. I'm pretty much outside the 'can be arsed' phase to explain why to measure from the hull of the vehicle rather than the center of the vehicle - If you want to measure from the center of the hull and your FLGS is OK with that, then that is fine - but I wouldn't take it outside there.


The problem with removing so many basic rules, you suddenly have no rules and start making up methods to fill the gaps. Not seeing a problem with measuring from the center of the hull is a by product of removing basic rules, because they state 'base'.

The basic rules do state "Base" but as others have pointed out, that is for anything that has a base.

I understand you want to replace the wording of those rules with "Hull" rather than "Base", and i can understand that assumption, but ultimately do not agree that it is how the rules are written.

you have to measure travel (as per the Vehicle RaW) and not movement:
you have to take note / measure exactly how the Vehicle got from A to B, as opposed to the Basic movement rules that say you can pretty much "travel" 50" until you are 6" away from your starting location.

I can adjoin pictures to show it more clearly if the point isn't completely clear, but i do believe the interpretation "Hull within 6" " is flawed, even though not "wrong" within RaW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So i spent some time to get this explained in a picture.

To Nem, but all can try this:
"No part of the vehicle can be further than 6" or you have moved more than you allotted distance"

Now please set up a "long" vehicle, such as a Dark Eldar Raider or Necron Ghost Ark on your Table.
Now assume you move at maximum 6" for 3 turns of the game
All the Red lines on the diagram MUST be 6" (or less)

After these 3 quite simple turns of play, measure the distance (Green lines) from the centre point of the vehicle (or any other part of the Hull you wish to pick)

I can guarantee that your vehicle is now MUCH further than 18" away from its starting position.

Feel free to add a 4th Turn just to make sure the vehicle is facing the same way again, and measure.

You move up to a maximum movement distance, not a travel distance. there is no such thing as "travel distance" in the RAW and there is nothing to even loosely imply you measure how far you have moved based on the movement path.

If that were the case we would have things like vector strike/blade vane/scream attacks/ chariot drive bys not use the terminology that you mark the start and end point and its a line between those two.

There is no raw that you measure travel.

the hull of the vehicle is used instead of the base for measuring stance.

As vehicle models do not usually have bases, the normal rule of measuring distances to or from a base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and from their hull

the vehicle has a maximum movement distance, not travel range travel move or travel distance.

In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

There is nothing anywhere in the rules to even suggest you can pivot for free, move some, measure that move, pivot for free, move some and measure that move and when it hits 6" your golden. that is a fallacy.

@Blaktoof:
I quoted the exact rule that says you measure travel:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed.

There is travel distance in RaW for vehicles.

If not, you'd be able to drive around impassable buildings as far as you like if you are still 6" from you start point.

unfortunately what you stated is not the full text.

before it it states:

The distance a vehicle moves influences how accurately it can fire its weapons

which obviously shows us the distance a vehicle moves.

then it goes on to state that if during the distance the vehicle moved it travels up to x" its going combat speed, and if it travels between x and y its going cruising speed.

However none of this overrides or tells us to measure vehicle movement in any way different than normal movement. Does it? If it does please show the quote from the relevant page.

there is nothing about measuring how far you travel as you are traveling, that is fabricated.

and the reason you cant measure through impassable terrain is the same reason no model can generally, unless they have a specific rule that says they may travel over it. That is a reason based on the terrain and hos nothing to do with general vehicle movement.

You want to go 6", great take your tape measure, pick a point on the hull and measure 6" to where you want to go, place the model down there you have gone 6" with pivots between.

Theres an impassable thing in the way, measure 6" around the thing, put vehicle there.

its pretty easy.

By the by, i was cruising through my BRB and noticed that on page 92 in the Tank Shock and Ramming section that you do not count the pivot move before your tank shock or ram againgst your movement distance at all.


Hmm.....i guess pivots are free after all even if you move.

This was brought up earlier. Those are special instructions. I assume you move infantry 2d6 in the movement phase because that is what they move during a charge.....

Eihnlazer wrote:
By the by, i was cruising through my BRB and noticed that on page 92 in the Tank Shock and Ramming section that you do not count the pivot move before your tank shock or ram againgst your movement distance at all.


Hmm.....i guess pivots are free after all even if you move.

Was that ever questionable? Just that including pivots the vehicle cannot move further than 6" from where it started.

Someone pointed out earlier that measurement can be taken from the center point. That makes sense. I don't care if someone can broadside me by turning sideways, that was bad planning by me anyway..

And I am sure everyone can figure out how to get around (or over) obstacles.

blaktoof wrote:
unfortunately what you stated is not the full text.

before it it states:

The distance a vehicle moves influences how accurately it can fire its weapons

Right back at you:

The distance a vehicle moves influences how accurately it can fire its weapons, as described later

Ie: this text says pay attention this will be important later.
Not: this text is about accuracy in shooting

What is the Title of that paragraph?

VEHICLES IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE
do vehicles shoot in the movement phase?
that entire section is describing "how to move vehicles"

blaktoof wrote:
which obviously shows us the distance a vehicle moves.

then it goes on to state that if during the distance the vehicle moved it travels up to x" its going combat speed, and if it travels between x and y its going cruising speed.

However none of this overrides or tells us to measure vehicle movement in any way different than normal movement. Does it? If it does please show the quote from the relevant page.

Right there, quoted word for word:

Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed. This represents the vehicle advancing slowly to keep firing, albeit with reduced firepower.

Because at the moment, you seem to be saying i can do this with my vehicle:


By your interpretation, i am only 12" away from where i started my movement: this is legal.

When i say no: you have traveled 20", which is more than the 12" you are allowed to move....

@BlackTalos: I think you may want to check your figures. Following your directions and layout that you posted above The front of GA is about 16" away. The center of the base is about 17" away.

Your argument is that you measure travel, including the distance gained by pivots, was exactly how I put it fourth in the first place and how I do movement myself.

Nem and I are putting fourth both a RAW, basically unusable, vision as well as a RAI version with a quick box for clear movement and travel measurement for terrained fields.

The picture above was a horrible and very fast job in MS paint. I hoped that the point would still get across if you take the values as they are.

IE: the green line IS 12" and the blue lines ARE 10" and 10".

My argument is that you measure travel (from vehicle centre-point), but pivots don't make a difference? Also i do beleive that it is fully within RaW?

Nem is putting forward another interpretation, shown in this picture, where "travel is irrelevant", in a way, and the only rule that matters is:
"Models move up to 6" in the Movement Phase."
or to quote Nem:
"we know what 6'' is in terms of measurement, it is 6'' from the hull, to the end of the 6'' tape measure".

I am unsure what "side" you belong to if you play like i describe it but put forth Nem's argument?

If the drawing is causing problems, here's one that I happen to know is in scale.



Nice and simple situation: The blue rhino wants to move around the about 5" square obstacle. (The path it wants to take is marked out in 1" increments, and the yellow rulers are included to show the size of the vehicle.) Note that it's going to turn three times.

How much movement does the vehicle need to travel that path?

 solkan wrote:
How much movement does the vehicle need to travel that path?

More than 12 inches and as such it can not make that move.

It seemed pretty clear cut to me. I've been lurking this thread side it's conception so that obviously makes me the most qualified person to speak on the matter.

If you don't move, the pivot on the center point is free (thus long vehicles could potentially gain range etc).

If you ARE moving the model, you measure from the farthest point on the hull in the direction you are moving, the distance you are moving, and you can do as many pivots as you want in the mean time, you could do a hundred donuts on the way, but the farthest point on your hull may not be farther than the distance you declared to move. Meaning at the end of your move you can be oriented in any which way, as long as your move didn't take you beyond your "movement bubble."

Ergo, big vehicles and long vehicles are a bit harder to manoeuvre effectively bawwww.

I can't actually believe this horse hasn't been declared dead by a medical professional yet.

 Bolg da Goff wrote:
It seemed pretty clear cut to me. I've been lurking this thread side it's conception so that obviously makes me the most qualified person to speak on the matter.

If you don't move, the pivot on the center point is free (thus long vehicles could potentially gain range etc).

If you ARE moving the model, you measure from the farthest point on the hull in the direction you are moving, the distance you are moving, and you can do as many pivots as you want in the mean time, you could do a hundred donuts on the way, but the farthest point on your hull may not be farther than the distance you declared to move. Meaning at the end of your move you can be oriented in any which way, as long as your move didn't take you beyond your "movement bubble."

Ergo, big vehicles and long vehicles are a bit harder to manoeuvre effectively bawwww.

I can't actually believe this horse hasn't been declared dead by a medical professional yet.

because its based on assumption and interpretations. using rules for infantry movements and swapping the term base for hull.

its neither balanced nor user friendly, as you have to track that bubble during the game

the method mentioned by you is a compromise to not totally wreck vehicle movement, (which would happen if you take the made assumptions and interpretations literary)

 Bolg da Goff wrote:
It seemed pretty clear cut to me. I've been lurking this thread side it's conception so that obviously makes me the most qualified person to speak on the matter.

If you don't move, the pivot on the center point is free (thus long vehicles could potentially gain range etc).

If you ARE moving the model, you measure from the farthest point on the hull in the direction you are moving, the distance you are moving, and you can do as many pivots as you want in the mean time, you could do a hundred donuts on the way, but the farthest point on your hull may not be farther than the distance you declared to move. Meaning at the end of your move you can be oriented in any which way, as long as your move didn't take you beyond your "movement bubble."

Ergo, big vehicles and long vehicles are a bit harder to manoeuvre effectively bawwww.

I can't actually believe this horse hasn't been declared dead by a medical professional yet.

So how far did this Rhino move?


By what you have said, you'd measure from where it is up top to it's new position right? Ignoring the Red line?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to specify, the answer would be 16". Because the new position is completely within 16" of where it started?

My interpretation: Pivots are free, but you count every single red section: 26" total would be needed

I am of the same conviction. A "meaningful pivot" (aka one you are doing to deliberately change orientation to circumvent obstacles) will be measured, but not in wheeling or degrees or other finicky stuff. Simply say "it's moving six inches this way" move as I described above, then rinse and repeat until you're around the obstacle. It's not difficult.

Its a clear cut case of RAI vs RAW, but you'd have to e a beligerent fool to actually try to apply it RAW down to the nitty gritty and busting out your compasses and whatever those half circle rulers are called. Like, be real here people.

EDIT: to clarify what I am saying: pivots are free, but any distance gained counts as movement unless you are only pivoting. You may pivot as you want for free but movement gained from such pivots are movement, and movement is movement, so it counts towards your total distance for sure.

EDIT 2: I don't have a computer on hand so I can't draw up a fancy graph, but the drawing above with the rhino and monolith is incorrect in its depiction of the vehicles movement bubble. It would only be equidistant on all sides if it was an open board with literally no obstructions. As a result, in order to maintain equal movement distance on all sides, the area above the monolith would be significantly smaller than the unblocked areas below and beside.