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 Quickjager wrote:

None of you have even bothered talking about HQs which ALL of them except the Libby are overcosted. Instead you all focus on the only threat in the codex to your guys armies. You want to nerf the DK.

You want to move away from the turn one alpha strike. GREAT how about you give the army some TOOLS do that?
All you all want to do at this point is have GK become Space Marine -1; koooaei we're forced into this alpha strike BECAUSE we don't have many models on the field.

You guys can increase the DK cost, you'll still see them on the field.

So your answer is "Hey lets get rid of the threat range instead, this way NO ONE will take them, I mean the Riptide can only Jump-and-shoot, the WK can only move 12 inch with ease". These double-standards are impressive even for a forum.

It's genius. It's on par with GW invalidating GKSS and making the people buy more terminators.

Sigh.

1) A DK without a jump pack still has a potential threat range of 30" on it's Heavy Psycannon and about 22" for its heavy Incinerator (measuring to the centre of the flamer template). Is this really so awful? Why is it that MCs need a bigger threat range than terminators, paladins etc.?

2) Double-standards are easy to find when you just lie about what people have said. I believe I made it very clear that no large, tough models should have durability and speed/manoeuvrability - this includes the Riptide and Wraithknight. Given the chance, I would remove the extra speed abilities from all such models (not just the NDK). The only reason I hadn't brought up the others was because you were shouting at us earlier to keep on topic - hence I adhered completely to the topic and only mentioned the relevant MC.

3) How about *you* start a discussion of GK HQs - instead of just bleating for others to do it for you? If you think they're overcosted, present us with your case for that and suggest how they should be improved. Do they just need a point drop, or would something else be better?

4) With regard to moving the army away from the alpha strike, what TOOLS would you suggest? I mean, if you're going to insult others and criticise their ideas, why not provide some ideas yourself? Seems like that would be the most logical way to get the discussion round to the areas you want.

1) I agree like I said, the jump pack is priceless, it is quite literally what makes the DK. If we are to move it into a foot-slogging unit we have to consider the ways it moves WITH the rest of the army.

2) It's the double standards everyone else has that is getting me. I've been too busy trying to get people to stop talking about the damn DK. I'm not sure what I lied about now.

3) I was unaware that there are people in this topic actually cared about the codex. It shouldn't fall to one person to direct a topic.

4) If we are to move away from alpha strike, it means that the army is going to be forced to foot-slog with whatever initial units are on the board at the time, it has to be enough units that you don't run the risk of getting tabled and preferably wouldn't be your expensive units. GKSS having scout, or infitrate would be good for this, as it would make sense from a fluff perspective and would potentially (depending on the board) make it so psycannon could be useful. However as they are not scouts like from C:SM they will not have access to cover saves that they would normally, I would argue perhaps being allowed to move through dangerous terrain. Changing the NSF formation would be necessary for this as well, making it instead a formation that...

a) makes it so reserves come in based on their FoC slot, Elite come in on turn 2, Heavy Support come in on turn 3, Fast Attack can come in on any turn, Stormravens cannot be carrying units, Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts cannot deepstrike, must start on the board.
b) reduce scatter to 1d6, however if DS 6 inches next to a GKSS, no scatter at all.
c) same formation benefits as before, but with objective secured. Formation benefits (run and shoot) only occur if DS within 6 inch of a GKSS.
d) FoC would be 1 HQ 1(4) Troop (3) Elite (2) Fast Attack (3) Heavy Support

This would increase the necessity of the GKSS immensely, give a reason for them to be deployed in a forward position and would be as said before pretty fluffy. This would involve giving the ability to Deepstrike to EVERYONE in the codex however. It would become a rolling barrage then with this setup.

Edit: fixing a glaring flaw in the revised formation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmmm that formation is going to need more tweaking... I'll edit that in that specific post.

As for HQ choices I turn to what should really be the cheapest HQ in the book...

-The Brotherhood Champion-

Originally 1 wound and 100 points, it has for the most part retained its original statline and wargear from the previous codex. However in this edition it has gained a extra wound! Which is awesome! No longer will he drop dead from one lucky shot! It takes two! What isn't awesome is that this change has seen him go from 100 points to 150 points, quite literally 50 points for 1 wound. He has also lost his three stances and only has 2 available to him now in challenges, in short he has become a Challenge champion. He is quite literally designed to be a HQ/sergeant killer... and he sucks at everything else.

He cannot deep strike, he cannot switch out his stormbolter for anything like a stormshield or extra ccw. Offensively he is a purifier with a higher weapon skill and no cleansing flame. He is arguably the worst HQ in codex for the lack of anything he brings to the army.

Comparing him to Castellan Crowe for an extra 25 points you gain with Crowe.

* Fearless
* 2 higher WS
* 1 higher I
* 1 extra attack
* cleansing flame
* ML 2
* Ability to use both stances at the same time in challenges
* However you ARE forced to use a ap- weapon

The simplest fix for The Brotherhood Champion would be to let him have more access to additional wargear, however he needs a point drop regardless.

To put it into perspective the Brother-captain costs 150 as well has 3 wounds, equivalent WS, 1 higher BS, 1 extra attack, ability to deepstrike (no sweeping advances however). AND a wide variety of choice on how to kit him out. However even the goddamn Brother-captain is over costed as is Crowe.

 Quickjager wrote:
SGTPozy either act politely or GTFO, I have done nothing to you except call you out for idiotic statements; in your thread I have even been polite even though your threads have a trademark of mocking other threads that are currently up.

Your statement about how the fething Riptide is a CLEARLY a Monstrous Creature stinks of bias of such extent. You have yet to contribute anything to this thread beyond negative statements.

At this point whatever any of you propose, it may as well be a new unit with a new model with the extent that all of you clearly want to "rebalance" the GK arsenal.

None of you have even bothered talking about HQs which ALL of them except the Libby are overcosted. Instead you all focus on the only threat in the codex to your guys armies. You want to nerf the DK.

You want to move away from the turn one alpha strike. GREAT how about you give the army some TOOLS do that?
All you all want to do at this point is have GK become Space Marine -1; koooaei we're forced into this alpha strike BECAUSE we don't have many models on the field.

You guys can increase the DK cost, you'll still see them on the field.

So your answer is "Hey lets get rid of the threat range instead, this way NO ONE will take them, I mean the Riptide can only Jump-and-shoot, the WK can only move 12 inch with ease". These double-standards are impressive even for a forum.

It's genius. It's on par with GW invalidating GKSS and making the people buy more terminators.

Which of my threads 'mock' existing threads? If you are talking about the 'Balancing Tau' thread, all I said was that it wasn't going to be about buffing the army, just balancing as the title suggested. This thread has no nerfs, the only nerfs are suggested by non-GK players which you take to heart and get offended by, e.g. nerfing the DK.

If the Riptide becomes a walker, then EVERY Tau suit also has to become a walker to keep it consistent.

My role here is to critique suggestions so that they are not OP just to make the army top tier, do that on my threads if you want and I will explain my reasonings, just calm down please.

 Quickjager wrote:

4) If we are to move away from alpha strike, it means that the army is going to be forced to foot-slog with whatever initial units are on the board at the time, it has to be enough units that you don't run the risk of getting tabled and preferably wouldn't be your expensive units. GKSS having scout, or infitrate would be good for this, as it would make sense from a fluff perspective and would potentially (depending on the board) make it so psycannon could be useful. However as they are not scouts like from C:SM they will not have access to cover saves that they would normally, I would argue perhaps being allowed to move through dangerous terrain. Changing the NSF formation would be necessary for this as well, making it instead a formation that... Scout seems appropriate. With regard to moving through dangerous terrain, would that not be where their shunt move comes in?

a) makes it so reserves come in based on their FoC slot, Elite come in on turn 2, Heavy Support come in on turn 3, Fast Attack can come in on any turn, Stormravens cannot be carrying units, Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts cannot deepstrike, must start on the board. That's an interesting idea, though it seems like it should be FA coming on first (and hence living up to their name ).
b) reduce scatter to 1d6, however if DS 6 inches next to a GKSS, no scatter at all. That could work.
c) same formation benefits as before, but with objective secured. Formation benefits (run and shoot) only occur if DS within 6 inch of a GKSS. Sorry, but this is one I can't agree with. Objective Secured is something you have to sacrifice to get the formation benefit. This applies to all other races in 7th, and I don't think GKs should be different.
d) FoC would be 1 HQ 1(4) Troop (3) Elite (2) Fast Attack (3) Heavy Support

This would increase the necessity of the GKSS immensely, give a reason for them to be deployed in a forward position and would be as said before pretty fluffy. This would involve giving the ability to Deepstrike to EVERYONE in the codex however. It would become a rolling barrage then with this setup. I quite like your ideas for making Strike Squads more important. Although, I'm not sure how giving everything deep strike would play out - especially if you're also removing the chance element from reserves. Might be interesting to have a go at playtesting these rules.

As for HQ choices I turn to what should really be the cheapest HQ in the book...

-The Brotherhood Champion-

Originally 1 wound and 100 points, it has for the most part retained its original statline and wargear from the previous codex. However in this edition it has gained a extra wound! Which is awesome! No longer will he drop dead from one lucky shot! It takes two! What isn't awesome is that this change has seen him go from 100 points to 150 points, quite literally 50 points for 1 wound. He has also lost his three stances and only has 2 available to him now in challenges, in short he has become a Challenge champion. He is quite literally designed to be a HQ/sergeant killer... and he sucks at everything else.

He cannot deep strike, he cannot switch out his stormbolter for anything like a stormshield or extra ccw. Offensively he is a purifier with a higher weapon skill and no cleansing flame. He is arguably the worst HQ in codex for the lack of anything he brings to the army.

Comparing him to Castellan Crowe for an extra 25 points you gain with Crowe.

* Fearless
* 2 higher WS
* 1 higher I
* 1 extra attack
* cleansing flame
* ML 2
* Ability to use both stances at the same time in challenges
* However you ARE forced to use a ap- weapon

The simplest fix for The Brotherhood Champion would be to let him have more access to additional wargear, however he needs a point drop regardless.

To put it into perspective the Brother-captain costs 150 as well has 3 wounds, equivalent WS, 1 higher BS, 1 extra attack, ability to deepstrike (no sweeping advances however). AND a wide variety of choice on how to kit him out. However even the goddamn Brother-captain is over costed as is Crowe.

This seems to be a recurring theme with GW where they overcost pure melee characters, and undercost support units like Librarians (which tend to be much more useful). Anyway, considering what he lost, it seems like his cost shouldn't have risen above 100pts. Although, even then, it seems like the concept is flawed anyway - with challenges being far less useful or relevant than GW seems to think.

My thoughts in Red.

I'll be honest though, I'm struggling to imagine how your suggested changes would play out. Not that I think they'd necessarily be bad or OP, just that I'm struggling to find anything to mentally compare them to. I mean, I'm sure we can find a lot of HQs that are pretty comparable to a brother captain, but in terms of being able to deep-strike virtually everything in the army (along with all the reserve/DS modifications) I just have no idea how they'd play out. If you see what I mean.

If anyone actually playtests these (or similar) rules, I'd like to hear how it goes.

SGTPozy wrote:
If the Riptide becomes a walker, then EVERY Tau suit also has to become a walker to keep it consistent.

Without wishing to derail this thread, I really don't see why that would be the case.

The riptide is different because of its size, compared to its pilot. There's just not enough organic material within that great mass of armour to classify it as 'organic'. Otherwise, are we saying that all vehicles should be Monstrous Creatures just because they have pilots?

MC don't necessarily have to be 'organic' they just have to move like an organic creature. Which of the following has the most fluid movements; a Dreadnought or a Riptide? One is clunky which waddles around like a penguin, whilst the other moves like a human, being hooked up to the suit so that they feel like they are the suit.

A suit 'pilot' is not the same as a vehicle pilot. One drives/flies the machine whilst the other IS the machine. Read some fluff about Riptides (such as the Damocles anthology) and then you will understand.

At which size would you suggest switching from MC to a walker?

You just argued for the Dreadknight to remain an MC, just saying.

I think what he means is that the Riptide is built is built like a crisis suit being wired in and shiz, while a dk is a large machine with a terminator strapped to the front fist bumping his way across the field, another way this could be changed is in shooting at the unit, as the terminator was no coverage and is completely exposed there is the potential of him getting hit by the shot and not the machine he oparates. This could be a separate role after each role to hit has been made (1-3 dk is hit 4-6 terminator is hit) this would fit better than the current assumption that the driver is amune to the shots and his battle suit (which doesnt look as fluid and looks rather bulky in comparison to other mc) will take the hits instead of him

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You just argued for the Dreadknight to remain an MC, just saying.

How so? Care to explain? My point was that a Riptide is an upscaled Crisis suit, and they are both suits of armour, unlike a vehicle. A Dreadknight would never be able to move as fluidly as he could outside of it as he is just hanging there. Where are all of the technical gizmos allowing him to 'be' the Dreadknight? Could he swing his arm backwards? No. Could a Riptide? Yes.

Like I've said earlier, if Mankind had this technology to make human-like walkers, then why do only the GKs use them? How is this beneficial to Mankind if the Inquisition is hiding away that tech?

A dreadknight is an up-scaled power armor as much as a riptide is an up-scaled crisis suit to be honest.

As for why they dont share the knoledge of how to make dreadknights-because the IoM are a mess of berucracy and opposing factions who have zero trust towards each other and everyone is hoarding whatever he can and sharing as little as possible.
Its not unique to the GK to act this way, DA do the same thing, every branch of the inquisition does too, lets not start with the AdMech.
The IoM is NOT efficient and NOT sharing knowledge properly. that's part of the reason its falling.

A dk chassis is nothing like an upscaled marine, the only resemblence is it has hands and feet, while a riptide has identical features to that of a crisis suit.
Im curious what makes you think its an upscale marine? Ican see a marine attached to the front but the resemblance ends their to me?

SGTPozy wrote:
MC don't necessarily have to be 'organic' they just have to move like an organic creature.

No, sorry, they do have to be organic. If they're not organic then they're not a creature (and, hence, not a Monstrous Creature either).

Also, the main difference between vehicles and MCs has nothing to do with fluidity of movement (or any such) - it has to do with whether you're damaging mostly organic material or armour and electronics.

The best way to think of it is to split the thing in question into sections. Now, lets say that each section is penetrated completely by a Lascannon - is it hitting anything organic? If the answer is mostly 'no', then how can it possibly be classified as a creature?


That being said, I think we could do with getting rid of the current distinctions between vehicles and MCs (in terms of AV values), and just have everything use Toughness and Saves. We could then add 'organic' or 'Construct' (or something along those lines), such that the former would be immune to rules like 'Haywire' and the latter would be immune to stuff like Poison.

It's time to add another unit type. Monstrous vehicle. The first of them will be riptide, dread knight, wraithknight and penitent engine.

 vipoid wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
MC don't necessarily have to be 'organic' they just have to move like an organic creature.

No, sorry, they do have to be organic. If they're not organic then they're not a creature (and, hence, not a Monstrous Creature either).

Also, the main difference between vehicles and MCs has nothing to do with fluidity of movement (or any such) - it has to do with whether you're damaging mostly organic material or armour and electronics.

The best way to think of it is to split the thing in question into sections. Now, lets say that each section is penetrated completely by a Lascannon - is it hitting anything organic? If the answer is mostly 'no', then how can it possibly be classified as a creature?


That being said, I think we could do with getting rid of the current distinctions between vehicles and MCs (in terms of AV values), and just have everything use Toughness and Saves. We could then add 'organic' or 'Construct' (or something along those lines), such that the former would be immune to rules like 'Haywire' and the latter would be immune to stuff like Poison.

So a space marine is a vehicle then since you are wounding against ARMOUR, not flesh Like I said before, so long as Crisis suits are the same as Riptides then I don't care what it is. Anyway, I'd way prefer a 4HP AV13 13 13 Walker any day

That would work but I highly doubt that GW would be willing to radically change their rules, so we'll have to make do with what we have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
It's time to add another unit type. Monstrous vehicle. The first of them will be riptide, dread knight, wraithknight and penitent engine.

What would be the rules for them?

"A Nemesis Dreadknight is a marvel of technology. At its indomitable heart is an adamantium-alloy skeleton, whose great limbs are given life by a compact but powerful plasma reactor. Over this are layered a series of bonded ceramite plates and armoured control linkages. Once a Grey Knight is strapped into the command harness on the Dreadknight’s front, synaptic implants give him complete control of the machine’s limbs and weapon systems – essentially transforming him into a metal giant."

Thats straight from the Dreadknight entry of the GK codex. The DK is clearly a suit like a riptide given that it has "synaptic implants" so that it moves according to the will of the pilot so its actually exactly just "like an upscaled marine". Both are large machines designed to move as fluidly as a living being. If the DK should be a walker, so should a riptide and wraithknight. I actually have no problems w/ this as for the sake of the external balance of the game, it makes sense.

As for the organic vs mechanized argument, in a real-life situation then yes, I completely agree with you. However as far as a game is concerned, there are a lot of things you have to overlook for the sake of the game. I hardly think that trying to give armies like eldar, tau, or IoM monstrous creatures is breaking the game. Now the power levels of those MCs might be another story.

SGTPozy wrote:

So a space marine is a vehicle then since you are wounding against ARMOUR, not flesh

No, you've misunderstood - you'd go through armour, but still hit flesh underneath.

The point with Ripdides, Dreadknights etc. is that most of the time you're not hitting any flesh at all. If you penetrate a SM's arm, then you'll still be hitting the guy inside. If you shoot a Dreadknight's arm then the bullet/laser can go in one side and out the other, yet will hit nothing but armour and electronics.

 vipoid wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

So a space marine is a vehicle then since you are wounding against ARMOUR, not flesh

No, you've misunderstood - you'd go through armour, but still hit flesh underneath.

The point with Ripdides, Dreadknights etc. is that most of the time you're not hitting any flesh at all. If you penetrate a SM's arm, then you'll still be hitting the guy inside. If you shoot a Dreadknight's arm then the bullet/laser can go in one side and out the other, yet will hit nothing but armour and electronics.

What about Daemons? They have no flesh so does that make them a walker? They are neither 'organic' or mechanical, so what are they? <mind blown>


Automatically Appended Next Post:

z_tanic wrote:
"A Nemesis Dreadknight is a marvel of technology. At its indomitable heart is an adamantium-alloy skeleton, whose great limbs are given life by a compact but powerful plasma reactor. Over this are layered a series of bonded ceramite plates and armoured control linkages. Once a Grey Knight is strapped into the command harness on the Dreadknight’s front, synaptic implants give him complete control of the machine’s limbs and weapon systems – essentially transforming him into a metal giant."

Thats straight from the Dreadknight entry of the GK codex. The DK is clearly a suit like a riptide given that it has "synaptic implants" so that it moves according to the will of the pilot so its actually exactly just "like an upscaled marine". Both are large machines designed to move as fluidly as a living being. If the DK should be a walker, so should a riptide and wraithknight. I actually have no problems w/ this as for the sake of the external balance of the game, it makes sense.

As for the organic vs mechanized argument, in a real-life situation then yes, I completely agree with you. However as far as a game is concerned, there are a lot of things you have to overlook for the sake of the game. I hardly think that trying to give armies like eldar, tau, or IoM monstrous creatures is breaking the game. Now the power levels of those MCs might be another story.

Fair enough, good contribution sir!

SGTPozy wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
It's time to add another unit type. Monstrous vehicle. The first of them will be riptide, dread knight, wraithknight and penitent engine.

What would be the rules for them?

That's an interesting question.

It might get a dual profile like a chariot with some tweaks like 1/6 chance to hit an operator.

It might just get the benefits and drawbacks of both classes like can be affected by both poisoned weapons and haywire for drawbacks. And for benefits...i don't know, it's a wierd design with no benefits over a walker if you look at it fluffwise

SGTPozy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You just argued for the Dreadknight to remain an MC, just saying.

How so? Care to explain? My point was that a Riptide is an upscaled Crisis suit, and they are both suits of armour, unlike a vehicle. A Dreadknight would never be able to move as fluidly as he could outside of it as he is just hanging there.

With a Mind Impulse Unit. As in, the suit is an extention of the pilot.

SGTPozy wrote:
Where are all of the technical gizmos allowing him to 'be' the Dreadknight? Could he swing his arm backwards? No. Could a Riptide? Yes.

I don't know, where are they on a Riptide?

He totally could swing his arm, because I too know how to make unsubstantiable claims.

SGTPozy wrote:
Like I've said earlier, if Mankind had this technology to make human-like walkers, then why do only the GKs use them? How is this beneficial to Mankind if the Inquisition is hiding away that tech?

If the Tau know how to build Riptides, why do only the Kroot use them? Why aren't the Air Caste allowed to be Riptide pilots? How is this beneficial to the Greater Good?

 DogOfWar wrote:
Strike Squads should have had Infiltrate, teleport homers for +20 points, and the option for Psybolt ammunition (for a +3 ppm value, not a flat fee of +20).

Dreadnoughts should have had the option for Psybolt, but for at least +15 points (160 points for Heavy 4, S8 AP4, twin-linked on 3HP AV12).

When rules are cumbersome, hard to understand, cause confusing interactions, or slow down the game, I'm 100% in favour of removing them. When the only problem is that they're simply too good for the cost (I'm looking at you, +5 point Psybolt on vehicles), the logical answer is to increase that cost to a reasonable level, not just remove them altogether. To me, taking away the wargear option completely screams, "we couldn't be bothered to re-balance the points costs."

DoW

It's always really bothered me that I could have two assault cannon razorbacks right next to each other, one with psybolt ammo and one without, and there would be nothing about the psybolt razorback that absolutely demands, screams to have special +1 strength about it because it clearly could never shoot "blunt" shells. Like, if one of them had a heavy flamer turret it would obviously need different rules than the assault cannon one, but ammo? I do not like very much going on rules wise that I can't see on the tabletop. Psykers are enough.

I think that you have to give all vehicles psybolt ammo as default, and build the price in to the price of the gun.

vipoid wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
MC don't necessarily have to be 'organic' they just have to move like an organic creature.

No, sorry, they do have to be organic. If they're not organic then they're not a creature (and, hence, not a Monstrous Creature either).

Also, the main difference between vehicles and MCs has nothing to do with fluidity of movement (or any such) - it has to do with whether you're damaging mostly organic material or armour and electronics.

I have a best possible rationalization for why things are the way they are now. I like to see if the explanations for a situation are completely discreditable before I reject the situation completely.

Your basic armor-value vehicle is built on a chassis. There's a box, and all the weapons and drive systems are built and completed separately and attached to this box, which is what I always thought was called a chassis. You can often take the engine, drives, and tracks/legs off the chassis and get them to bop around by themselves, The chassis is just a box.

The mechanical Monstrous Creatures that bother you are constructed like any other creature. There is no chassis, there is no thing you could destroy without destroying the individual systems. There is no way to remove the engine and drives from the structural part of a human and have them walk around themselves, because the drives

are

the structure. If you shoot a riptide or dreadknight or wraith-thing, you will always hit some kind of system. The system might have armor, the way a person wears power armor, but armor is not the same thing as a structure that serves no other purpose than to connect the other parts together.


That is just how I deal with the situation. It is nice that it tidies things up for me. Your idea seems to work for you. Actually, I'm going to think about your criterion for vehicle vs. MC.


Organic like... what if I, as a human, had all my parts completely replaced with non-organic substances, like my blood were made of tiny machines suspended in fluid (oil?), and I got shot? You don't mean chemically organic, you mean structurally? So like a person whose parts are replaced with machines, like a techpriest? How about a necron? I do not see necrons being vehicles instead of creatures.

I'm not super attached to any of this, but I am pretty confident that the chassis vs organs distinction is relevant and the organic vs inorganic is not.

And in any case, its not like its a special case.


The sororitas have their fair share of tech they do not share around, the DA have it too, the AdMech live on that concept and every other inqusitorial branch does it too.

Forget resource management, the IoM do not even GET ALONG with each other. would you share weapons tech with people you don't trust?

If you cannot post without insulting other users then it'd best you don't post at all.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:


Where they are in a Riptide is the same as in any other suit; INSIDE the suit. Just because the Tau are not stupid enough to leave their MC suit open faced where the occupant could easily get destroyed like with Imperial tech, it doesn't mean its not there.

So why then assume that they're not there on a Dreadknight? Further, the Dreadknight isn't open faced. There's a force field blocking the pilot from fire while giving him a clear view of the battlefield. It's just that casting force fields in plastic is a tad difficult.

Did I say that there wasn't a force field? No. All that I said was that its idiotic to leave it open faced as what if an EMP went off and the field went down? Then the pilot could be targeted. All that it is is that GW thought that it looked cool to leave it open, that is it so please calm down.

SGTPozy wrote:


Kroot do not use Riptides... Idiot .

C'mon, I meant to say "why don't Kroot use Riptides", but screwed up and posted something else. Does that really make it OK in your head to go for personal insults? You're the only one in this thread being a douche about it, and this isn't the first personal attack you've used.Kindly get out until you can have a civil conversation, or at least one without going for ad hominems.

Woah dude! Didn't you see the Orky happy face? It was a light hearted joke as I CLEARLY could tell that you messed up the sentence, hence my joke. If you couldn't understand the light heartedness of the post, which is clear due to the use of Orky faces, then that's somehow my fault? You just called me a douche, but I'm not offended so maybe you should learn to not take everything so seriously?

SGTPozy wrote:
Each caste has their role, would you expect a news reporter to fly your aeroplane on your holiday? The Fire caste defends the other castes, so yeah, that's how its beneficial.

Why would anyone who's not a specialized anti-Daemon Space Marine use a piece of equipment designed to let anti-Daemon Space Marines fight Daemons? That'd be a waste of resources.

It doesn't have any specific anti-Daemon things does it? As far as I'm aware of, Its just a MC who has power fists, and can upgrade one to a hammer or sword and can take up to two big guns. I would understand your point if it came base with the hammer, but it doesn't.

EDIT: Sorry about the poor layout, I was trying to separate the sections like the guy I am quoting but I messed it up Silly me!

Alright quick write up of a playtest from my phone on the formation above.

I have never felt so vulnerable to being tabled on T1, droppod armies are the bane of the formation's existence. The formation is odd because in the 3 games I played, everytime it encourages the opponent to go balls deep on trying to table me, even of Maelstrom missions.

Droppod army with Imperial Fist tactics, almost tabled T1, won because his alpha strike didn't completely wreck me, since he spent all his heavy units by T2 dealing with my Elites, DK on T3 wrecked him, T4 was cleanup.

Mechdar, almost tabled T1, DID get tabled T3, everything came in too piecemeal to deal with the Eldar range. It sucked ignore cover was painful because that's how I was supposed to keep them alive.

BA... no I was fine. He did go straight into assault though T2 tunred into a bloodbath for melee. Probably most fun game in a while, his Death Company was fun to fight. Won the game in the end because DK T3.