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ForeverARookie wrote: ironhammer2194, Thank you for the effort, but the suggestions are biased from a non-GK perspective.
Your response also takes only the title into account and ignores the original post, making it off topic for this thread.
Much of the codex was nerfed, and you want to balance it by nerfing the rest. I would recommend actually playing the army before deciding it needs to lose more.
No, his points are perfectly reasonable, even though they're not what you want to hear, which seems to be the case.
Space Marine Terminator Captain vs a GKBC vs a CSM Termy Lord/
C:SM Term Cap:WS 6 BS 5 S4 T4 W3, I 5 LD 10
Wargear: power weapon, stormbolter, Terminator Armor.Iron Halo
Special Rules: ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Independant Character
Cost: 120 points
CSM Terminator Lord WS 6 BS 5 S4 T4 W3, I 5 LD 10
Wargear: Power Weapon, Twinlinked bolter, Terminator Armor
Special Rules: Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Independant Character
Cost: 105 points (note they do not have a iron halo thus unless you buy it seperatly only get a 5+ invul save)
GK Brother Captain: WS 6 BS 5 S4 T4 W3, I 5 LD 10
Wargear: Terminator Armor, Stormbolter, Nemisis Force Sword, Frag Grenades, Kark Grenades, Psyk Out Grenades, Iron Halo
Special Rules: Psyker (ML 1) ATSKNF, Perfered Enemy: Deamons, The Aegis, Purity of Spirit
Cost: 150 points.
Apples to Apples you really have to give the CSM Lord a SoC, making him 130 points
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
ForeverARookie wrote: ironhammer2194, Thank you for the effort, but the suggestions are biased from a non-GK perspective.
Your response also takes only the title into account and ignores the original post, making it off topic for this thread.
Much of the codex was nerfed, and you want to balance it by nerfing the rest. I would recommend actually playing the army before deciding it needs to lose more.
No, his points are perfectly reasonable, even though they're not what you want to hear, which seems to be the case.
And you're being incredibly rude to a polite post
He has not been the most accepting of alternate ideas or people telling him that they don't agree with his ideas. I'm also pretty sure he's putting people on ignore for not agreeing with his ideas.
Fixing Psycannons and Deep Strike would fix all of my problems with Strike Squads, Purifiers, and Interceptors this edition.
Unfortunately I'm going to have to disagree with this. This would (HELP) the problem. It would not (FIX) the problem. The problem is derived from the nature of the Meta and Codexes that have taken out any means of utilizing these units to real effectiveness. (Space Marines, Grav Guns, Bikers, Dev Centurions, no saves) (Eldar-Practically Everything- too much high strength TL shooting from ranged) (Dark Eldar, Venom Spam/allying with Eldar too much poison causing you to role too many dice, where saves become non-existent despite a 3 or 2+ armor) (D-Weapons) (FMC spam, stormravens are fine but they are a pretty costly flyer as opposed to simplistic fliers to get the job done like a stormtalon, or nightscythe) (Necrons - Destroyer Lord, WraithStars, Night Scythes carrying Immortals/warriors, Ahinlation Barges with tesla which negates the advantage of fliers needing 6s to hit because they are rewarded with extra shots for rolling 6s) (Drop Pod Armies, carrying melta/grav and being able to come in where they want to)(Daemons-FMC spam with summoning) (Tyarnds FMC spam with recycling) (Finally transports wise rhino and razorbacks fall hard in comparison to the actual high tier faction transports.
The simple truth is that, GK means of combat (Heavy Qualititave Infantry armored Units that are naturally slow moving who's expertise is close combat) is the ANTI of the Meta. You couldn't fix anything without introducing some new special wargear or rules.
I recall there used to be a special rule some editions ago that required you pass a leadership test to be able to shoot at them if you were some distance away. (That initself would FIX the problem of ranged units tearing them asunder from outside the 24" range
DeepStrike
Introducing Drop Pods into this codex would FIX the deepstrike problem Amazingly by keeping your units from dieing from mishap In addition to the rites of teleportation ability they got in this codex enabling them to get where they need to and into cover because of 5" deployment out of drop pod + 6" movement from deepstrike
Psycannons
(5th Edition Psycannon:
24” S7 AP4 Assault 2 or Heavy 4, Rending
Or barring that, I'd even be happy with
36" S7 AP4 Salvo 2/4, Rending)
I did like these 2 ideas. However that still fails to adress their problem of not having enough ap2/3 shooting. The psycannons I'd argue need to be made ap3. At ap3 Rending. Then you actually pose a serious threat to marine equivalent and immediately become a respectable mid-ranged force. Fixing the problem outright of not having enough AP3/2 weaponry. Because now your base is Anti MEQ, and your rending is Anti TEQ
Rhino/Razorback
Needs a passive 5+ Invuln save, not a cover save... an Invuln save. The FIX is as Simple as that. With that, they wouldnt continue to be practically worthless due to the Spammage of Ignore Cover all over the place. It's ok if it isn't the best transport in terms of shooting but it needs to be at least survivable to some respect
HQs
HQs other than the Librarian and Techmarine need a 25 point decrease in cost, because in practice, they don’t affect the battle enough to be worth the points when the Librarian does more and for fewer points
While I do think this would help, the simple truth of the matter is that you can only FIX this by actually introuducing mechanics along the lines of (special rules or wargear) to make them worth taking. Before they had Psychic Communion and Grandstrategy. Now they have nothing..Crow even with an rending weapon is still no where close to in comparison as important as a librarian so he needs something along the lines of ap2. If he had an ap2 was ML3 so he could cast hammer hand as well as cleansing flame in the same combat by himself... He'd be absolutely worth taking.
Final Statement
Finally, as much as I'd love long range anti-vehicle.. this army would become completely broken if it had it... AP2/3 spam in close combat with the ability to considerablly well when it comes to tank hunting... That's just obsurd. They need something to balance them, that is having low ranged wepaons. However, I absolutely agree they should not be being punished the way they are now without it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/09 21:31:39
WrentheFaceless wrote: No, his points are perfectly reasonable, even though they're not what you want to hear, which seems to be the case.
And you're being incredibly rude to a polite post
How was I rude? He didn't address the original post at all. He just read the heading and stated why he thought everything was fine, and that the Grey Knights needed to be nerfed more. I simply pointed that out.
And everyone else seems to be fine telling me that I'm wrong about everything, and that's perfectly acceptable, but if I respond in kind, I'm the one being rude? You're telling me that my only option is to remain silent.
I acnowledged that the dude had a polite tone, but he was suggesting nerfing a Codex that already lost half of its units, and had most of the other half nerfed.
It's like other people at an auto shop looking over at your car and saying, "Your car's fine. If anything, it's working too well." It doesn't matter how nicely they say it, if you're there because your car isn't working optimally (slushy breaks, burns oil, whatever), and some random person feels the need to tell you your car is actually working too well, it is infuriating. My response was essentially, "Dude don't say my car is too perfect without having driven it."
Dezstiny wrote: Rhino/Razorback
Needs a passive 5+ Invuln save, not a cover save... an Invuln save. The FIX is as Simple as that. With that, they wouldnt continue to be practically worthless due to the Spammage of Ignore Cover all over the place. It's ok if it isn't the best transport in terms of shooting but it needs to be at least survivable to some respect
That would actually be better than the Sisters 6++ Invul on their Rhinos (granted they get AW too, but still, that's still a better Invul that would be more useful) that costs them 40 points. Unless it costs 45 points for a Rhino like that it's actually a bit too much of a buff to the basic Rhino.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 21:37:04
ClockworkZion wrote: He has not been the most accepting of alternate ideas or people telling him that they don't agree with his ideas. I'm also pretty sure he's putting people on ignore for not agreeing with his ideas.
No, I haven't been putting people on ignore, but thanks for the idea.
What motivation do I have to accept someone else's ideas when they will not consider any of mine.
I feel a specific slight restructuring of the Grey Knights would make them a better army, as the current form can't beat anyone at my local gaming store in any combination, unless I'm playing against the new guy. Most of the responses I've gotten are telling me that the Grey Knights need to be nerfed more. Why should I consider that possibility when I'm already losing almost all of my games when I was winning almost half of my games with the previous codex?
Why is it fine for people to go to a thread they know they'll disagree with, just to tell the original poster how wrong he is, and it's not fine for him to respond back that he thinks they're wrong?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 05:13:20
WrentheFaceless wrote: No, his points are perfectly reasonable, even though they're not what you want to hear, which seems to be the case.
And you're being incredibly rude to a polite post
How was I rude? He didn't address the original post at all. He just read the heading and stated why he thought everything was fine, and that the Grey Knights needed to be nerfed more. I simply pointed that out.
And everyone else seems to be fine telling me that I'm wrong about everything, and that's perfectly acceptable, but if I respond in kind, I'm the one being rude? You're telling me that my only option is to remain silent.
I acnowledged that the dude had a polite tone, but he was suggesting nerfing a Codex that already lost half of its units, and had most of the other half nerfed.
It's like other people at an auto shop looking over at your car and saying, "Your car's fine. If anything, it's working too well." It doesn't matter how nicely they say it, if you're there because your car isn't working optimally (slushy breaks, burns oil, whatever), and some random person feels the need to tell you your car is actually working too well, it is infuriating. My response was essentially, "Dude don't say my car is too perfect without having driven it."
Your car analogy fails as the Grey Knight codex does not only belong to you, nor are you the ultimate authority on the codex as its not "Yours" and yours alone, like a car would be.
Perhaps, unlike your 3290384 past threads/comments since the new Codex came out, you actually try to start a conversation on it without your biases already in place and your "my way or gtfo" stance to people commenting.
Dezstiny wrote: Rhino/Razorback
Needs a passive 5+ Invuln save, not a cover save... an Invuln save. The FIX is as Simple as that. With that, they wouldnt continue to be practically worthless due to the Spammage of Ignore Cover all over the place. It's ok if it isn't the best transport in terms of shooting but it needs to be at least survivable to some respect
That would actually be better than the Sisters 6++ Invul on their Rhinos (granted they get AW too, but still, that's still a better Invul that would be more useful) that costs them 40 points. Unless it costs 45 points for a Rhino like that it's actually a bit too much of a buff to the basic Rhino.
I prefered the pre codex version myself, slightly more expensive, but Psychic Pilot and the option to roll itself an invuln save.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 21:42:20
ForeverARookie wrote: What motivation do I have to accept someone else's ideas when they will not accept any of mine.
If they aren't accepting your ideas (and so far I haven't seen anyone just accept any of them as you've presented them) then perhaps there are problems with your ideas. That's why alternate ideas have been proposed, but you have been pretty good at not even acknowledging many of them, even after they take the time to acknowledge yours.
ForeverARookie wrote: I feel a specific slight restructuring of the Grey Knights would make them a better army, as the current form can't beat anyone at my local gaming store in any combination, unless I'm playing against the new guy. Most of the responses I've gotten are telling me that the Grey Knights need to be nerfed more. Why should I consider that possibility when I'm already losing almost all of my games when I was winning almost half of my games with the previous codex?
Not everything proposed is a nerf.
ForeverARookie wrote: Why is it fine for people to go to a thread they know they'll disagree with, just to tell the original poster how wrong he is, and it's not fine for him to respond back that he thinks they're wrong?
Why do you expect people to accept your ideas whole sale? Not all ideas are good ideas and working to come up with good ideas takes time. If your ideas are being rejected you should consider what people are listing as the reasons why and if they offer alternatives consider those as well.
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WrentheFaceless wrote: I prefered the pre codex version myself, slightly more expensive, but Psychic Pilot and the option to roll itself an invuln save.
If it didn't turn GK into a major psychic die spam army I'd agree that the vehicles could use an Invul Psychic power. The problem is that it makes the Grey Knights into an unreasonable psychic die generating powerhouse that could dominate both psychic phases every turn.
I agree that it needs something, but I don't think bringing back Psychic Pilot is the way to go either.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 21:52:05
WrentheFaceless wrote: I prefered the pre codex version myself, slightly more expensive, but Psychic Pilot and the option to roll itself an invuln save.
If it didn't turn GK into a major psychic die spam army I'd agree that the vehicles could use an Invul Psychic power. The problem is that it makes the Grey Knights into an unreasonable psychic die generating powerhouse that could dominate both psychic phases every turn.
I agree that it needs something, but I don't think bringing back Psychic Pilot is the way to go either.
I would agree if the inquisition wasnt removed as the main part of that psychic dice generation spam with Psykers and the Psychic Pilot cheap transports, but thats not an option now. And without psy ammo, mass empty transports arent really going to be that hot of an idea either.
Removing inquisition and psyammo sort of counteracted the transport/cheap psyker dice shenanigans.
Not that we arent already strong in the psychic phase anyways with cheap level 3 librarians and mastery level 2 purifiers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 21:55:12
WrentheFaceless wrote: Your car analogy fails as the Grey Knight codex does not only belong to you, nor are you the ultimate authority on the codex as its not "Yours" and yours alone, like a car would be.
Perhaps, unlike your 3290384 past threads/comments since the new Codex came out, you actually try to start a conversation on it without your biases already in place and your "my way or gtfo" stance to people commenting.
You've entirely missed the point. I own a hard copy of the Codex, I own the models of my army, I own a copy of the core Rulebook. I have invested into this army. It doesn't matter how many other people have done the same, because the person I was talking about isn't one of them. He is the casual observer who hasn't had all of his favorite builds stripped away by new rules. He hasn't experienced losing half of his units only to be told he needs to pay around $50 to get them back as allies in addition to the cost of his Codex. He hasn't experienced the weapon that was the backbone of his army for 11 years loosing all viability in competitive play for the majority of his units.
I'd have conversations if the other people would say something other than how wrong I am about everything. I think the Codex needs balance that would improve it as an army. Most of the other people who have posted think the Codex needs balanced by nerfing everything that stands out as good. There is no way that turns into a conversation.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I prefered the pre codex version myself, slightly more expensive, but Psychic Pilot and the option to roll itself an invuln save.
If it didn't turn GK into a major psychic die spam army I'd agree that the vehicles could use an Invul Psychic power. The problem is that it makes the Grey Knights into an unreasonable psychic die generating powerhouse that could dominate both psychic phases every turn.
I agree that it needs something, but I don't think bringing back Psychic Pilot is the way to go either.
I would agree if the inquisition wasnt removed as the main part of that psychic dice generation spam with Psykers and the Psychic Pilot cheap transports, but thats not an option now. And without psy ammo, mass empty transports arent really going to be that hot of an idea either.
Removing inquisition and psyammo sort of counteracted the transport/cheap psyker dice shenanigans.
To a point I agree, but unless Psychic Pilot was "does not generate Psychic Charges, but it knows the following Power [INSERT POWER HERE]" I'd say that it could still get out of hand (like Razorback Spam armies).
Honestly, I don't think Grey Knights rate a special save on their Rhinos over regular Marines, and if anything the problem is less the Rhino/Razorback at this point and more the units who buy them.
I don't have a codex handy at the moment, how much does a single bare bones GKSS member cost?
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ForeverARookie wrote: You've entirely missed the point. I own a hard copy of the Codex, I own the models of my army, I own a copy of the core Rulebook. I have invested into this army. It doesn't matter how many other people have done the same, because the person I was talking about isn't one of them. He is the casual observer who hasn't had all of his favorite builds stripped away by new rules. He hasn't experienced losing half of his units only to be told he needs to pay around $50 to get them back as allies in addition to the cost of his Codex. He hasn't experienced the weapon that was the backbone of his army for 11 years loosing all viability in competitive play for the majority of his units.
I'd have conversations if the other people would say something other than how wrong I am about everything. I think the Codex needs balance that would improve it as an army. Most of the other people who have posted think the Codex needs balanced by nerfing everything that stands out as good. There is no way that turns into a conversation.
The game requires more than just one person. Homebrew needs to meet the satisfaction of both players, even if one of them has never played the army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 22:02:20
WrentheFaceless wrote: Your car analogy fails as the Grey Knight codex does not only belong to you, nor are you the ultimate authority on the codex as its not "Yours" and yours alone, like a car would be.
Perhaps, unlike your 3290384 past threads/comments since the new Codex came out, you actually try to start a conversation on it without your biases already in place and your "my way or gtfo" stance to people commenting.
You've entirely missed the point. I own a hard copy of the Codex, I own the models of my army, I own a copy of the core Rulebook. I have invested into this army. It doesn't matter how many other people have done the same, because the person I was talking about isn't one of them. He is the casual observer who hasn't had all of his favorite builds stripped away by new rules. He hasn't experienced losing half of his units only to be told he needs to pay around $50 to get them back as allies in addition to the cost of his Codex. He hasn't experienced the weapon that was the backbone of his army for 11 years loosing all viability in competitive play for the majority of his units.
I'd have conversations if the other people would say something other than how wrong I am about everything. I think the Codex needs balance that would improve it as an army. Most of the other people who have posted think the Codex needs balanced by nerfing everything that stands out as good. There is no way that turns into a conversation.
No, you've missed the point, you're not the only one who owns a hard copy of the Codex, owns model of the army and the rulebook and has invested into the Grey Knight faction. Its not only "Your' army, and others who play the army have different opinions from you.
To a point I agree, but unless Psychic Pilot was "does not generate Psychic Charges, but it knows the following Power [INSERT POWER HERE]" I'd say that it could still get out of hand (like Razorback Spam armies).
Honestly, I don't think Grey Knights rate a special save on their Rhinos over regular Marines, and if anything the problem is less the Rhino/Razorback at this point and more the units who buy them.
I don't have a codex handy at the moment, how much does a single bare bones GKSS member cost?
Bare bones strike? Not the sergeant? 20 points
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/09 22:08:19
ForeverARookie wrote: ironhammer2194, Thank you for the effort, but the suggestions are biased from a non-GK perspective.
Your response also takes only the title into account and ignores the original post, making it off topic for this thread.
Spoiler:
The Librarian is only 5 points cheaper than a comparably geared Space Marine Librarian. Any more than than a 5 point increase would be objectively over priced. The fact that the Librarian is so much better priced than the others, while being comparable to the Space Marine Librarian, is proof that the other GKHQs are over-priced. If you were to play them, you would find that they do not earn their points back in a game. They're good in close combat, but average at anything else. They just have no reason to take them over the fairly priced Librarian.
6th and 7th Editions are extremely unfriendly to assault-based armies, and the Grey Knights is an assault-based army, even more so now with Psycannon nerf taking them entirely out of the shooting phase. Close combat answers to problems can be hard to implement when the game is so built for shooting. Transports get shot down all the time at my Local Gaming Store, and without even Servo-skulls, Grey Knights only get reduced scatter if the arrive on the tail of a friendly unit that shelled out 10 points for a Homer. Many of the things you stated that they can do fine, are sufficiently costly that the player would have to tailor his list to the opponent's army to be able to field the appropriate counter units, just to have a fair chance of victory. Example: Falchions are good for swarms, but Hammers are needed for Monstrous Creatures and Vehicles. Unless you know what you're up against, your best bet is to have a bit of each, so you're capable of both, even if you're not great at either.
Storm Bolters and Psilencers can't hurt T8 or AV11. And Lascannons can only be taken on Razorbacks (75points) or Land Raiders (250points). If Storm Ravens are brought to combat fliers and Dreadknights for the mobility and firepower, there aren't many points left over for those Lascannons. So even though we have options that are capable of filling roles, they're not necessarily good at it.
Much of the codex was nerfed, and you want to balance it by nerfing the rest. I would recommend actually playing the army before deciding it needs to lose more.
Yeah, you're probably right about my bias, but my synopsis of the codex is based solely on the 7th not edition codex, not the 5th edition, not the 3rd edition, and not the current meta. Also, I believe a title like balancing grey knights gives me the right to talk about the BALANCE of the GK codex. If you just want to talk about changes you want the make to the codex, I recommend a title like "Grey Knights proposed Errata"...oh wait. Don't fault me for staying on topic when you try to continue your agenda under the guise of a new thread. Seriously man, I was actually defending you at the beginning of my post and there was nothing in my post that shot down your ideas or attacked you in any way.
And for the record, I proposed buffs to make GKs more effective against fliers so I'm not just nerfing everything like you said. I would have come up with more if I could too
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 22:20:08
I was just thinking that if we're not mucking with rules the best way to fix a couple of things would be a points tweak. I kind of think they might deserve to rate just a touch lower then. Like maybe 18 points. I know it's not much, but considering how they work now it'd get more mileage out of them in the long run and allow for some more bodies on the table which would mitigate some of the problems the army has. The Psycannon for PAGK models probably should go down a touch. I don't want to say down to half as much (as I don't know what it is normally), but with how Salvo works it's less effective on PAGK so it shouldn't cost as much.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 22:12:47
I still like my idea of giving it Rending (Daemon) when Force is active, but assault could honestly do it for me too. Definitely not both at the same time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 22:19:53
So 6 points more than a generic space marine for benefits like free(?) deep strike, leadership +1, unit wide access to power/force weapons and warp charge. It's like taking assault marines with vanguard vet options and a free pod as troops. Seems fair if you know how to use them, position models, etc.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
If Rites of Teleportation made you only scatter D6 instead of 2D6(or there was some way for GKs to do that) it would help significantly.
Strike Squads were always a little superfluous even in 5th edition where they were really just Warp Quake on a stick. Now they are both overpriced AND give nothing special.
If psycannons were Salvo 3/6 OR the Psycannon was range 36", you might see Strike Squads as cheap heavy weapon platforms. But Terminators would still be the better choice. So the only real way to make SS viable is to give them something else or make them very very cheap.
Plus the cost difference between PA and TDA psycannons is too little. Its only 5 points difference for a nearly 100% increase in power.
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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I still like my idea of giving it Rending (Daemon) when Force is active, but assault could honestly do it for me too. Definitely not both at the same time.
Indeed thats really one of the more pressing issues, is that other troops got better, and they got slightly worse with one weapon change.
Yea rending (daemon) plus assault would make it too good. Assaut 6 plus force would make it useful for PAGKs
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote: So 6 points more than a generic space marine for benefits like free(?) deep strike, leadership +1, unit wide access to power/force weapons and warp charge. It's like taking assault marines with vanguard vet options and a free pod as troops. Seems fair if you know how to use them, position models, etc.
Being Psykers and Deep Strike is basically their Chapter Tactics, which GW doesn't seem to charge anything for. If they did Iron Hands would be more like 16pts base for Tact Marines. The Force Weapon access fall into the point cost pretty easily.
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Plus Force Weapons are only useful in some cases. Its a pretty useless rule when killing guardsmen or basic marine derps.
It only comes into effect against models with multiple wounds, which you were probably going to try and shoot to death anyway.
I find I cast Force maybe once every 3-4 games.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: If Rites of Teleportation made you only scatter D6 instead of 2D6(or there was some way for GKs to do that) it would help significantly.
I really disagree that they should have it, especially since their formation already lets them re-position more easily without losing any shooting.
Grey Templar wrote: Strike Squads were always a little superfluous even in 5th edition where they were really just Warp Quake on a stick. Now they are both overpriced AND give nothing special.
Very true, they need a small points drop, I'm thinking 2ppm is about the upper threshold.
Grey Templar wrote: If psycannons were Salvo 3/6 OR the Psycannon was range 36", you might see Strike Squads as cheap heavy weapon platforms. But Terminators would still be the better choice. So the only real way to make SS viable is to give them something else or make them very very cheap.
I think 36" is the better of the options without mucking with the rest of the statline since it gives Grey Knights a way to reach out and touch things a little more reliably. Plus it helps the HSPAGK slot.
Grey Templar wrote: Plus the cost difference between PA and TDA psycannons is too little. Its only 5 points difference for a nearly 100% increase in power.
How about we tie the Deep Strike fix to Grand Masters?
Make Brother-Captains ML2 for the same cost as now. That way you'd have to choose between the better statline of the BroCap or the cheaper MLs of the Librarian. Make the Grand Master grant rerolls to Reserve and Scatter rolls. That way all three of those HQs have their own niches: Librarians for budget HQs and non-Deep Strike armies, BroCaps for beefier but still not bank-breaking psyker beatsticks, and Grand Masters for Deep Strike lists.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Indeed thats really one of the more pressing issues, is that other troops got better, and they got slightly worse with one weapon change.
Which shows how bad the unit really is balance wise with the rest of the book.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Yea rending (daemon) plus assault would make it too good. Assaut 6 plus force would make it useful for PAGKs
I agree, Assault would probably be the better of the two. I was just thinking the Rending would increase it's threat range against Daemons (and Daemon vehicles of AV13 or less).
Make Brother-Captains ML2 for the same cost as now. That way you'd have to choose between the better statline of the BroCap or the cheaper MLs of the Librarian. Make the Grand Master grant rerolls to Reserve and Scatter rolls. That way all three of those HQs have their own niches: Librarians for budget HQs and non-Deep Strike armies, BroCaps for beefier but still not bank-breaking psyker beatsticks, and Grand Masters for Deep Strike lists.
I think this probably solves the problem the best from what I've seen so far.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 22:32:27
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote: So 6 points more than a generic space marine for benefits like free(?) deep strike, leadership +1, unit wide access to power/force weapons and warp charge. It's like taking assault marines with vanguard vet options and a free pod as troops. Seems fair if you know how to use them, position models, etc.
Being Psykers and Deep Strike is basically their Chapter Tactics, which GW doesn't seem to charge anything for. If they did Iron Hands would be more like 16pts base for Tact Marines. The Force Weapon access fall into the point cost pretty easily.
Deep strike as a chapter tactic I'll give you, but Psyker not so much. You need to pay for that. If I took 6 troop squads and combat squad them, I'd get 12 ML/WC as regular SM if I had that chapter tactic. That's a heck of a lot more effective than a 6+ FNP, much less RG stealth for non bulky guys turn 1.
Regular SM don't get access to force weapons on anything other than HQ, so that's a lot better than a PW, plus you can give it to every guy in a squad if you wanted (which in practice means 3 guys get it and they lead from the rear).
Every army has bad matchups. Ork trukks vs Tau Gunline? Bad day. Rock vs Paper, Paper's going to win. If you take power armor to a hell drake or redeemer match you are in for some pain. The solution is not to make a Rock+1, +4 v Paper, its to not take all rock to RPS day. There's a Tau player who thinks Tau should be base BS 4 and, in exchange, reduce them to base WS2. Forget that fire warriors are ALREADY WS2, lets suppose he meant WS1. Orks boys would love to trade BS2 for BS1 if they got WS5. A buff of a point you love for a drop of a point you don't care about is not balanced by any stretch.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and if you don't like a codex choice... don't take it. Seen any banshees lately? Assault troops with no grenades in a codex without assault vehicles. tsk tsk tsk.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 22:46:12
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote: So 6 points more than a generic space marine for benefits like free(?) deep strike, leadership +1, unit wide access to power/force weapons and warp charge. It's like taking assault marines with vanguard vet options and a free pod as troops. Seems fair if you know how to use them, position models, etc.
Being Psykers and Deep Strike is basically their Chapter Tactics, which GW doesn't seem to charge anything for. If they did Iron Hands would be more like 16pts base for Tact Marines. The Force Weapon access fall into the point cost pretty easily.
Deep strike as a chapter tactic I'll give you, but Psyker not so much. You need to pay for that. If I took 6 troop squads and combat squad them, I'd get 12 ML/WC as regular SM if I had that chapter tactic. That's a heck of a lot more effective than a 6+ FNP, much less RG stealth for non bulky guys turn 1.
I disagree. Being a Psyker is a Chapter trait, which definitely makes it a "Chapter Tactic" for Grey Knights.
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote: Regular SM don't get access to force weapons on anything other than HQ, so that's a lot better than a PW, plus you can give it to every guy in a squad if you wanted (which in practice means 3 guys get it and they lead from the rear).
It still only works like a Power Weapon unless it's activated, something that can be denied now and has to be done pretty well in advance to the actual assault phase on the GK player's turn. And Grey Knights can't go first anymore with Halberds meaning that they'll take more casualties now, making them more fragile in assault, even with them ignoring 3+ armor saves.
Lastly, Space Marines, even DA, pay more for termies. You can't just raise one without lowering another without serious meta impact. You also can't make the bad choices worse (25 point banshees!) to make a good choice better (15 point fire dragons!)
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote: Lastly, Space Marines, even DA, pay more for termies. You can't just raise one without lowering another without serious meta impact. You also can't make the bad choices worse (25 point banshees!) to make a good choice better (15 point fire dragons!)
I think it's safe to say Terminators will be going down in points as codexes continue get updated. Also most Terminators come with Power Fists, which tend to be pretty points heavy. That's going to make them more expensive right off the bat even with a points drop on them later.
EDIT: And I don't know anyone who was trying to make the Terminators even cheaper. In fact the only points drop I was looking at was knocking 2ppm off the Strike Squad models.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/09 22:51:05
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