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I disagree. Being a Psyker is a Chapter trait, which definitely makes it a "Chapter Tactic" for Grey Knights.
Deep strike is a good chapter trait all on its own. Psyker is better than the IH one in terms of abuse potential. Both is super OP.
Regular SM don't get access to force weapons on anything other than HQ, so that's a lot better than a PW, plus you can give it to every guy in a squad if you wanted (which in practice means 3 guys get it and they lead from the rear).
It still only works like a Power Weapon unless it's activated, something that can be denied now and has to be done pretty well in advance to the actual assault phase on the GK player's turn. And Grey Knights can't go first anymore with Halberds meaning that they'll take more casualties now, making them more fragile in assault, even with them ignoring 3+ armor saves.
You don't have to take halberds anymore than a power axe. As for fragile in assault, that's game wide, not codex specific. Cry to my T3, 4+ grenadeless banshees. If you can find them under the dust on the shelf.
A good codex is about options. GK didn't get a lot of options in their books. GW seems to be pushing data slates harder and harder so you get F-ed there, I'll grant that. But getting bleeped on cash is different than points. If my only codex 1 hq and 1 type of unit, the solution is not to make the unit great shooting at AA/AV/AI and cheap enough to handle hordes in CC too. GW, for better or worse, wants you to buy the assassin/inq dataslates and or allies.
Try a house rule game with a friend with the CSM codex and your proposed chapter tactics. That's just... broken in a competitive list.
(edits for quote lines)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/09 22:59:48
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote: You don't have to take halberds anymore than a power axe. As for fragile in assault, that's game wide, not codex specific. Cry to my T3, 4+ grenadeless banshees. If you can find them under the dust on the shelf.
They can take the basic sword, but it has no bonuses so players typically upgrade to either have more attacks, or increase what they can wound. And those options cost points.
And you can cry to my Repentia who sit in a box on a shelf.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote: Deep strike is a good chapter trait all on its own. Psyker is better than the IH one in terms of abuse potential. Both is super OP.
You do recall chapter tactics are made of 2 different rules, right? Deep Strike alone would only be half.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 23:02:10
Fine where it is IMO, the points drop made it more viable. Possibly Torrent 6" or something, but that's something I feel all flamethrower-style Template weapons should have, they're all a little unwieldy ATM.
Psycannon:
Spoiler:
The problem with the old profile is that it made Strike Squads a no-brainer over Terminators. You'd get more shooting power when stationary and the same while moving for the same points (slightly more now that Terminators went down), while having the fluke resistance of having more wounds as opposed to better saves, and better resistance to AP2 and 1 (but worse to AP3). There really has to be something to make Terminators worth taking. The price drop helped somewhat, but care has to be taken to make sure Terminators aren't relegated to the rubbish bin for another two editions. Something like S7 AP4 Assault 2 (without Rending) 18" when moving and S7 AP 4 Heavy 4, Rending 24" when moving. The loss of Rending can be explained by the fact that the withering amount of bullets that're needed to rend aren't achieveable while moving without Terminator armour or a vehicle platform.
Psilencers:
Spoiler:
Two different ammo types รก la Sternguard, choose before shooting:
S1 AP- 30" Heavy 5 Poisoned (3+). If you want to take down a Greater Daemon, you don't try to hit them with silly S4 shooting, you hit them with bolts filled with Holy Water or something similar. It'd also give the Grey Knights an alternative to the Psycannon against Monstrous Creatures without having to gamble on Force in CC.
S- AP- 30" Heavy 2 Haywire. Have the psychic ammunition somehow mess with the electronics of enemy vehicles, giving the Grey Knights an anti-tank weapon that's unlike that of the rest of the Imperium.
When combined, the two ammo types would give the Grey Knights a weapon that's better at killing Monstrous Creatures and heavy vehicles than the Psycannon, but worse at killing elite (read: MEQ) infantry. It'd be the Meltagun to the Psycannon's Plasma Gun (if Meltaguns were better at killing MCs, I never said it was a perfect analogy )
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote: Deep strike is a good chapter trait all on its own. Psyker is better than the IH one in terms of abuse potential. Both is super OP.
You do recall chapter tactics are made of 2 different rules, right? Deep Strike alone would only be half.
Ok, for your second half you get army wide Deny the witch on a 5+ (where DTW is allowed). That's more in keeping with their fluff anyway and saves you a psyker hq slot. Most of the chapter tactics are this one good thing and this other, ok related thing. ML1 on all units is more abuswable than any existing tactic, even Iron Hands IWND. note that you have to give up all your current toys to get these though, as you are now codex space marines like the rest of us. Otherwise it's not "balance GK" it is "My GK +1 wish list"
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote: Deep strike is a good chapter trait all on its own. Psyker is better than the IH one in terms of abuse potential. Both is super OP.
You do recall chapter tactics are made of 2 different rules, right? Deep Strike alone would only be half.
Ok, for your second half you get army wide Deny the witch on a 5+ (where DTW is allowed). That's more in keeping with their fluff anyway and saves you a psyker hq slot. Most of the chapter tactics are this one good thing and this other, ok related thing. ML1 on all units is more abuswable than any existing tactic, even Iron Hands IWND. note that you have to give up all your current toys to get these though, as you are now codex space marines like the rest of us. Otherwise it's not "balance GK" it is "My GK +1 wish list"
They already get that from being Psykers. And doesn't really address the point that being a Psyker IS one of their Chapter Tactics. If it wasn't then PAGK would cost as much as Librarians on Vanilla chapters. Since they don't cost ~50pts each, then it's clear they aren't being charged for it, and if they are it's not anywhere close to the points cost a Librarian has over the basic Marines in their books.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
For Terminators, my guess is that vanilla Terminators will be 30 points. Assault Terminators will also be 30 with LC and pay 5 pts to upgrade to TH/SS.
That makes GKs pay 3 points for their special stuff.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Dezstiny wrote:
Rhino/Razorback
Needs a passive 5+ Invuln save, not a cover save... an Invuln save. The FIX is as Simple as that. With that, they wouldnt continue to be practically worthless due to the Spammage of Ignore Cover all over the place. It's ok if it isn't the best transport in terms of shooting but it needs to be at least survivable to some respect
That would actually be better than the Sisters 6++ Invul on their Rhinos (granted they get AW too, but still, that's still a better Invul that would be more useful) that costs them 40 points. Unless it costs 45 points for a Rhino like that it's actually a bit too much of a buff to the basic Rhino.
Yea, it would... but If you think to Sisters... that 6++ isn't doing too much for them right now.. It was fine when you had to roll like maybe 2-3 saves in the past. Now your rolling like... 5-6. These vehicles should be at least somewhat capable of getting downfield. Especially when its the only unit that stands as a viable transport that allows you to relocate without dumping a ton of points into it. So many builds are limited just because of how the rhino isn't a reliable/decent option for transporting units anymore. It's practically "pay 45 points for a 12" movement for your whole squad and then disembark, because it is destroyed..." In an edition where mobility is Vital, you just cant have that
Don't get me wrong, this would only slightly help the problem. The greatest fix would be through the toning down of codex e's which from the looks of the past few 7th ed codex's is the case
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/09 23:53:23
Dezstiny wrote:
Rhino/Razorback
Needs a passive 5+ Invuln save, not a cover save... an Invuln save. The FIX is as Simple as that. With that, they wouldnt continue to be practically worthless due to the Spammage of Ignore Cover all over the place. It's ok if it isn't the best transport in terms of shooting but it needs to be at least survivable to some respect
That would actually be better than the Sisters 6++ Invul on their Rhinos (granted they get AW too, but still, that's still a better Invul that would be more useful) that costs them 40 points. Unless it costs 45 points for a Rhino like that it's actually a bit too much of a buff to the basic Rhino.
Yea, it would... but If you think to Sisters... that 6++ isn't doing too much for them right now.. It was fine when you had to roll like maybe 2-3 saves in the past. Now your rolling like... 5-6. These vehicles should be at least somewhat capable of getting downfield. Especially when its the only unit that stands as a viable transport that allows you to relocate without dumping a ton of points into it. So many builds are limited just because of how the rhino isn't a reliable/decent option for transporting units anymore. It's practically "pay 45 points for a 12" movement for your whole squad and then disembark, because it is destroyed..." In an edition where mobility is Vital, you just cant have that
You never played against Necrons if you only had to look at rolling a couple of saves for vehicles. Tau can be pretty mean to the humble Rhino since their basic gun can glance it too.
And Rhinos are 35 points. It's of two of the cheapest transports in the game (the other being the Drop Pod which is immobile and open topped) and anything that could be done to make it better would need to make it more expensive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 23:57:10
You never played against Necrons if you only had to look at rolling a couple of saves for vehicles. Tau can be pretty mean to the humble Rhino since their basic gun can glance it too.
And Rhinos are 35 points. It's of two of the cheapest transports in the game (the other being the Drop Pod which is immobile and open topped) and anything that could be done to make it better would need to make it more expensive.
Key words... "saves in the past"
Yes excuse me they are 35 points, however that was besides the point ,In the past against necrons you didn't have to go up against ahinliation barges, night scythes, dropping immortals getting 2 extra hits per every 6 surmounting to what leads to now adays 6 or so saves. Eldar Wave Serpents weren't spraying out a meal of str6 ignore cover shots, and Tau has always been capable of dealng out plenty of damage however, your not looking at the Meta. Necrons and Eldar as Well as Tau own the meta now, Before you were lucky to find a player. Therefore the only way to progress is by either
option a. Boosting the survivability of the rhino
option b. Tone down the codexes.
I am for either maybe even a bit of both, however I highly doubt that you would have to express a huge point cost increase for the rhino to boost it's survivability to "decent" given that it should be a primary transport option right now with good advantages to do so.. but it's not.. They just die, and while drop pods are fine, That only decreases the playable options for gaming and that's what everyone is always going on about... Limited builds.. People don't take landraiders as much because they die practically just as easy... Therefore people go play armies with drop pods, bikes, flyers, or skimmers as troop transports... The Rhino is obsolete... there needs to be something done.
Space Marine Terminator Captain vs a GKBC vs a CSM Termy Lord/
C:SM Term Cap:WS 6 BS 5 S4 T4 W3, I 5 LD 10
Wargear: power weapon, stormbolter, Terminator Armor.Iron Halo
Special Rules: ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Independant Character
Cost: 120 points
CSM Terminator Lord WS 6 BS 5 S4 T4 W3, I 5 LD 10
Wargear: Power Weapon, Twinlinked bolter, Terminator Armor
Special Rules: Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Independant Character
Cost: 105 points (note they do not have a iron halo thus unless you buy it seperatly only get a 5+ invul save)
GK Brother Captain: WS 6 BS 5 S4 T4 W3, I 5 LD 10
Wargear: Terminator Armor, Stormbolter, Nemisis Force Sword, Frag Grenades, Kark Grenades, Psyk Out Grenades, Iron Halo
Special Rules: Psyker (ML 1) ATSKNF, Perfered Enemy: Deamons, The Aegis, Purity of Spirit
Cost: 150 points.
Apples to Apples you really have to give the CSM Lord a SoC, making him 130 points
true eneugh, still only reinforces my statement that GW is basicly making GKs pay about 2-30 extra points for the force upgrade, grenades and ML1.. seems about right to me.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
You never played against Necrons if you only had to look at rolling a couple of saves for vehicles. Tau can be pretty mean to the humble Rhino since their basic gun can glance it too.
And Rhinos are 35 points. It's of two of the cheapest transports in the game (the other being the Drop Pod which is immobile and open topped) and anything that could be done to make it better would need to make it more expensive.
Key words... "saves in the past"
Right, and I had to roll a LOT in the past. I actually roll less saves now in the long run because of Hull Points. Once 3 are gone the vehicle is wrecked. In 5th it was a real fight to do that so the saves were more frequent and sometimes really hilarious in just how many 6s I could roll.
Dezstiny wrote: Yes excuse me they are 35 points, however that was besides the point ,In the past against necrons you didn't have to go up against ahinliation barges, night scythes, dropping immortals getting 2 extra hits per every 6 surmounting to what leads to now adays 6 or so saves. Eldar Wave Serpents weren't spraying out a meal of str6 ignore cover shots, and Tau has always been capable of dealng out plenty of damage however, your not looking at the Meta. Necrons and Eldar as Well as Tau own the meta now, Before you were lucky to find a player. Therefore the only way to progress is by either
option a. Boosting the survivability of the rhino
option b. Tone down the codexes.
I am for either maybe even a bit of both, however I highly doubt that you would have to express a huge point cost increase for the rhino to boost it's survivability to "decent" given that it should be a primary transport option right now with good advantages to do so.. but it's not.. They just die, and while drop pods are fine, That only decreases the playable options for gaming and that's what everyone is always going on about... Limited builds.. People don't take landraiders as much because they die practically just as easy... Therefore people go play armies with drop pods, bikes, flyers, or skimmers as troop transports... The Rhino is obsolete... there needs to be something done.
Any boosting to the Rhino will make it more expensive creating a catch-22: it'll be more durable, but you'll pay more, so you'll ultimately feel the same as you did before about it despite the durability buff. I should know, I pay 40pts for Sisters Rhinos and that's exactly how it goes.
Option B is the obvious thing that is happening, and unless the next couple of books fly right off into left field power wise (like Tau and Eldar did) we should be okay. This committee form of codex writing GW is doing is making the books generally more balanced now than when one person had a majority control over the book. It means a lot of nerfs are coming (as we've seen already), but they're also fair and on things most people can agree were too good before.
How about keeping their pts cost as is currently, but adding the Scout special rule to them, as they are meant to be the first into the fray taking/holding ground for the rest of the force to come in and support?
Would make the Psycannon viable on them as you'd get that pre-T1 move to gain at least an additional 6", thus effectively giving you that old 30" reach on 1st turn. Plus it opens up some Outflanking shenanigans for bringing the Psycannons or even Incinterators into the enemy's backfield to get at rear armour/bunched up backfield units. (and would mean that Interceptors are not the clear auto-take of the Fast Attack section)
How about keeping their pts cost as is currently, but adding the Scout special rule to them, as they are meant to be the first into the fray taking/holding ground for the rest of the force to come in and support?
Would make the Psycannon viable on them as you'd get that pre-T1 move to gain at least an additional 6", thus effectively giving you that old 30" reach on 1st turn. Plus it opens up some Outflanking shenanigans for bringing the Psycannons or even Incinterators into the enemy's backfield to get at rear armour/bunched up backfield units. (and would mean that Interceptors are not the clear auto-take of the Fast Attack section)
Good idea! It was always a bummer to roll a Warlord Trait that had something to do with Scouts, when we never had any to make use of it. Personally, I'd rather see Infiltrate (to represent teleporting in first like they're supposed to do). That way they'd be in a position that'd let the Teleport Homers be useful for Deep Striking units that come in on turn 1.
How about keeping their pts cost as is currently, but adding the Scout special rule to them, as they are meant to be the first into the fray taking/holding ground for the rest of the force to come in and support?
Would make the Psycannon viable on them as you'd get that pre-T1 move to gain at least an additional 6", thus effectively giving you that old 30" reach on 1st turn. Plus it opens up some Outflanking shenanigans for bringing the Psycannons or even Incinterators into the enemy's backfield to get at rear armour/bunched up backfield units. (and would mean that Interceptors are not the clear auto-take of the Fast Attack section)
Good idea! It was always a bummer to roll a Warlord Trait that had something to do with Scouts, when we never had any to make use of it. Personally, I'd rather see Infiltrate (to represent teleporting in first like they're supposed to do). That way they'd be in a position that'd let the Teleport Homers be useful for Deep Striking units that come in on turn 1.
Space Marine Terminator Captain vs a GKBC vs a CSM Termy Lord/
C:SM Term Cap:WS 6 BS 5 S4 T4 W3, I 5 LD 10
Wargear: power weapon, stormbolter, Terminator Armor.Iron Halo
Special Rules: ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Independant Character
Cost: 120 points
CSM Terminator Lord WS 6 BS 5 S4 T4 W3, I 5 LD 10
Wargear: Power Weapon, Twinlinked bolter, Terminator Armor
Special Rules: Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Independant Character
Cost: 105 points (note they do not have a iron halo thus unless you buy it seperatly only get a 5+ invul save)
GK Brother Captain: WS 6 BS 5 S4 T4 W3, I 5 LD 10
Wargear: Terminator Armor, Stormbolter, Nemisis Force Sword, Frag Grenades, Kark Grenades, Psyk Out Grenades, Iron Halo
Special Rules: Psyker (ML 1) ATSKNF, Perfered Enemy: Deamons, The Aegis, Purity of Spirit
Cost: 150 points.
Apples to Apples you really have to give the CSM Lord a SoC, making him 130 points
true eneugh, still only reinforces my statement that GW is basicly making GKs pay about 2-30 extra points for the force upgrade, grenades and ML1.. seems about right to me.
The Space Marine Captain with Artificer Armour, Power Sword, and Storm Bolter costs 130 points.
He has the exact sam Stat line to the Brother Captain (6, 5, 4, 4, 3, 5, 3, 10, 2+, 4++)
They both have Storm Bolters, and are AP3 in close combat.
They both have Frag and Krak Grenades
They both have: And They Shall Know No Fear, Independent Character.
I believe that the Anti-Daemon/Psyker perks are the Grey Knights' "Chapter Tactics".
So where as the Iron Hands would give the Space Marine Captain the Feel No Pain (6+), and It Will Not Die,
The Brother Captain gets Psyk-out grenades (only useful against Psykers), Preferred Enemy Daemons (only useful against Daemons), and Purity of Spirit (which only makes Sanctic considerable next to the craziness available in Divination and Telepathy.
So for the extra 20 points the Brother Captain is a L1 Psyker, meaning he picks the Primaris power we want's then rolls on the appropriate chart as a shot in the dark at getting something useful. And this is on a unit not designed to be a caster (Remember, it has the exact same Stat line as the SM Captain, which is a close combat build).
The other thing it has is his sword has Force, which has situational usefulness.
For that same 20 points the SM Captain could take a Bike, or a Jump Pack, or a Lighning Claw, or a Plasma Pistol, etc.
Grey Knights can't tailor their HQs like other factions can, so any Brother Captain you see will play the same way as any other Brother Captain. He can teleport in, ride up in a Land Raider or Stormraven, or trudge up the middle, whereas the SM Captain can ride in any transport, cruise up in a bike, or hop around the battlefield in a Jump Pack.
How about keeping their pts cost as is currently, but adding the Scout special rule to them, as they are meant to be the first into the fray taking/holding ground for the rest of the force to come in and support?
Would make the Psycannon viable on them as you'd get that pre-T1 move to gain at least an additional 6", thus effectively giving you that old 30" reach on 1st turn. Plus it opens up some Outflanking shenanigans for bringing the Psycannons or even Incinterators into the enemy's backfield to get at rear armour/bunched up backfield units. (and would mean that Interceptors are not the clear auto-take of the Fast Attack section)
Good idea! It was always a bummer to roll a Warlord Trait that had something to do with Scouts, when we never had any to make use of it. Personally, I'd rather see Infiltrate (to represent teleporting in first like they're supposed to do). That way they'd be in a position that'd let the Teleport Homers be useful for Deep Striking units that come in on turn 1.
Infiltrate would be far too powerful as you could auto set-up your teleport homers to outright destroy pretty much anything at will. Even the near-idiot proof Drop Pods at least bring the inherent risk of deviating on T1.
Imagine for example in a Nemesis Strike formation set-up, you infiltrate your Strike homers within 12.1" of an enemy tank. T1, before your opponent has even so much as budged, you bring in your Termie squad w/Psycannon with 0 risk, pop the offending tank, then run D6" to get out of template danger.
Or even nastier, you're playing in a Tourney where the scenario allows only 1HQ + 2 Troops to begin on table. You infiltrate your Strikes to bring your T1 re-inforcments down with 100% precision and wipe out your opponent's starting forces and effective win the game right there on the spot.
No likes hardcore alpha-strike for a damn good reason! Giving Strikes Scout means they still get that forward movement or Outflank option, but it keeps them on *your* table half. (and personally, I think Drop Pods should also be restricted to following the proper Reserves rules, and only gain the T1 drop in a specialist Formation that only allows units which take pods and/or deep strike!)
Space Marine Terminator Captain vs a GKBC vs a CSM Termy Lord/
C:SM Term Cap:WS 6 BS 5 S4 T4 W3, I 5 LD 10
Wargear: power weapon, stormbolter, Terminator Armor.Iron Halo
Special Rules: ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Independant Character
Cost: 120 points
CSM Terminator Lord WS 6 BS 5 S4 T4 W3, I 5 LD 10
Wargear: Power Weapon, Twinlinked bolter, Terminator Armor
Special Rules: Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Independant Character
Cost: 105 points (note they do not have a iron halo thus unless you buy it seperatly only get a 5+ invul save)
GK Brother Captain: WS 6 BS 5 S4 T4 W3, I 5 LD 10
Wargear: Terminator Armor, Stormbolter, Nemisis Force Sword, Frag Grenades, Kark Grenades, Psyk Out Grenades, Iron Halo
Special Rules: Psyker (ML 1) ATSKNF, Perfered Enemy: Deamons, The Aegis, Purity of Spirit
Cost: 150 points.
Apples to Apples you really have to give the CSM Lord a SoC, making him 130 points
true eneugh, still only reinforces my statement that GW is basicly making GKs pay about 2-30 extra points for the force upgrade, grenades and ML1.. seems about right to me.
The Space Marine Captain with Artificer Armour, Power Sword, and Storm Bolter costs 130 points.
He has the exact sam Stat line to the Brother Captain (6, 5, 4, 4, 3, 5, 3, 10, 2+, 4++)
They both have Storm Bolters, and are AP3 in close combat.
They both have Frag and Krak Grenades
They both have: And They Shall Know No Fear, Independent Character.
I believe that the Anti-Daemon/Psyker perks are the Grey Knights' "Chapter Tactics".
So where as the Iron Hands would give the Space Marine Captain the Feel No Pain (6+), and It Will Not Die,
The Brother Captain gets Psyk-out grenades (only useful against Psykers), Preferred Enemy Daemons (only useful against Daemons), and Purity of Spirit (which only makes Sanctic considerable next to the craziness available in Divination and Telepathy.
So for the extra 20 points the Brother Captain is a L1 Psyker, meaning he picks the Primaris power we want's then rolls on the appropriate chart as a shot in the dark at getting something useful. And this is on a unit not designed to be a caster (Remember, it has the exact same Stat line as the SM Captain, which is a close combat build).
The other thing it has is his sword has Force, which has situational usefulness.
For that same 20 points the SM Captain could take a Bike, or a Jump Pack, or a Lighning Claw, or a Plasma Pistol, etc.
Grey Knights can't tailor their HQs like other factions can, so any Brother Captain you see will play the same way as any other Brother Captain. He can teleport in, ride up in a Land Raider or Stormraven, or trudge up the middle, whereas the SM Captain can ride in any transport, cruise up in a bike, or hop around the battlefield in a Jump Pack.
You mean, for those extra 20'ish pts, you get a melee specialist who comes with an ID capable weapon AND guaranteed Prescience with a 16% shot at the frankly godly Precognition power...
For +25pts, the Grandmaster gets slightly better than 33% odds at gaining Precog.
Trust me, as a Tzeentch Daemon player, I can promise you that Divination on a combat beatstick is hilariously wrong. (yes, even more so than the over-rated Biomancy...)
Experiment 626. Why should I even attempt a nice tone when this is the response I get? Every single time I post something, people like you crush it under heel, providing nothing constructive. It's never "but I like this idea better because...", it's always "you're wrong, I'm right".
You over-estimate Grey Knights. Infiltrators can't infiltrate less than 12" away from an enemy unit, and they can only get that close if no enemy unit has line of sight to them. Also, even if the entire Grey Knight army arrived within12" of the enemy with no scatter, 100% guaranteed on turn one, We still wouldn't be guaranteed victory. Tau and Eldar would murder us with the Interceptors and Overwatch.
Besides, Drop Pods have the perk that if you go first, you get to shoot at the enemy first, and if they go second, they're not on the table to be shot at before their turn comes around. Drop Pods also allow units to start closer to the opponent than Infiltrate does. The biggest difference between the two methods is that mine puts the Strike Squads out there, able to be shot at, yet allowing reduced Deep Strike for Turn 1 (From the GK Detachment), while yours might as well only ever be used for the Combined Arms Detachment because Turn 1 Deep Strike has full scatter anyway.
And I've played plenty of Librarians with Prescience, and it's not that big of a buff. Grey Knights already hit on a 3+, and all of their ranged damage is lost on the To-wound rolls and Saves, so Prescience isn't that helpful for them.
I can see your logic, but your way is not objectively better, and you don't have to be so abrasive in how you present it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/10 16:56:26
Infiltrate would be far too powerful as you could auto set-up your teleport homers to outright destroy pretty much anything at will. Even the near-idiot proof Drop Pods at least bring the inherent risk of deviating on T1.
Imagine for example in a Nemesis Strike formation set-up, you infiltrate your Strike homers within 12.1" of an enemy tank. T1, before your opponent has even so much as budged, you bring in your Termie squad w/Psycannon with 0 risk, pop the offending tank, then run D6" to get out of template danger.
Or even nastier, you're playing in a Tourney where the scenario allows only 1HQ + 2 Troops to begin on table. You infiltrate your Strikes to bring your T1 re-inforcments down with 100% precision and wipe out your opponent's starting forces and effective win the game right there on the spot.
No likes hardcore alpha-strike for a damn good reason! Giving Strikes Scout means they still get that forward movement or Outflank option, but it keeps them on *your* table half. (and personally, I think Drop Pods should also be restricted to following the proper Reserves rules, and only gain the T1 drop in a specialist Formation that only allows units which take pods and/or deep strike!)
I fail to see how giving strikes infiltrate or scout makes it "over the top' when you can just take allied scouts and accomplish the same thing.
I fail to see how giving strikes infiltrate or scout makes it "over the top' when you can just take allied scouts and accomplish the same thing.
1) That requires your ally slot (many people still don't like allies).
2) The scouts can be killed before the bottom of T1 if the GK player doesn't get to go first.
ForeverARookie wrote: Why should I even attempt a nice tone when this is the response I get?
As noted on the first page of this thread, this is because of Dakka's Code of Conduct, the first rule of which is "Be Polite".
To the thread, if anyone thinks a post is rule-breaking, please just hit the yellow triangle in the corner of the post, rather than responding.
As it is, this is the second warning this thread has required- another will likely cause it to be locked. Please simply stick to discussing Grey Knights... not who should or should not post here, or how they should do so (everyone is free to express their opinion, as long as it is polite).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/10 17:49:10
ForeverARookie wrote: Experiment 626. Why should I even attempt a nice tone when this is the response I get? Every single time I post something, people like you crush it under heel, providing nothing constructive. It's never "but I like this idea better because...", it's always "you're wrong, I'm right".
Have you considered the commonality in all of those discussions is you and your suggestions? You are seeking to give your Codex the broken OPness it had in fifth. You are saying that GK should beat anybody. That's not balance. Here's a suggestion. Get rid of the Grey Knights codex and make it a chapter tactics option. That way you can take the Codex Space Marine stuff, instead of the "terrible" army you feel forced to take now and give them preferred enemy Daemons and Deny the witch on a 5+ as their tactics and use HQ special chars for the old stuff.
ForeverARookie wrote: Also, even if the entire Grey Knight army arrived within12" of the enemy with no scatter, 100% guaranteed on turn one, We still wouldn't be guaranteed victory. Tau and Eldar would murder us with the Interceptors and Overwatch.
You still wouldn't have a guaranteed victory. That's the issue. You think we shouldn't disagree with you because two of the dozen plus armies wouldn't be guaranteed to lose. Overwatch doesn't apply to you unless you charge and you have termies as a troop option for a lot less than Dark Angels or CSM.
ForeverARookie wrote: Besides, Drop Pods have the perk that if you go first, you get to shoot at the enemy first, and if they go second, they're not on the table to be shot at before their turn comes around. Drop Pods also allow units to start closer to the opponent than Infiltrate does. The biggest difference between the two methods is that mine puts the Strike Squads out there, able to be shot at, yet allowing reduced Deep Strike for Turn 1 (From the GK Detachment), while yours might as well only ever be used for the Combined Arms Detachment because Turn 1 Deep Strike has full scatter anyway.
Drop pods can be intercepted and the passengers count as disembarking. They can scatter 12" back, or off the board. The can mishap if reducing the scatter won't let you disembark the models with 1" distance.
ForeverARookie wrote: I can see your logic, but your way is not objectively better, and you don't have to be so abrasive in how you present it.
You end your post calling people abrasive when you start with
ForeverARookie wrote: Experiment 626. Why should I even attempt a nice tone when this is the response I get?
.
My suggestion is to reread other people's posts and look at their argument from the point of view of someone who is NOT Grey Knights. How would you like it is Orks said they should be WS5 T5 base since their always fighting? Do you think they should still cost 6 points for a boy if they are buffed like that? If yes, that is not a balanced change, that is a buff.
You will get much less push back if you title your post "Make my Grey Knights Super OP so I don't have to learn how to adapt" than by using the word Balance.
If you want to focus on game design and point value, show us where the PAGK are over priced. A generic tactical is 14 points, generate no warp charge, has no force weapon, can't deepstrike has no access to psycannons or other GK weaponry and is not supportable by 33 point termies in anywhere in the codex, much less as troops.
Deepstrike and warp charge are certainly worth 2 points a model, maybe more. That brings you up to 18/model minimum. +1 Leadership is at least a point. - 19. Access to force weapons is at least another 2 points a model (CSM can only take 1 non force PW), that's 21. Ta-dah! You are not over costed, they're under costed vs CSM troops. CSM troops also can't take a land raider, which I totally would if I could for them outside a heavy slot. Let's trade that last point and the other GK synergies for the Chapter tactics. PAGK are fine, its just that their termies are undercosted which makes PAGK the lesser choice in the codex, not the codex itself (as far as units in the codex goes - you did get jacked on cash, but overpaying for a codex should not mean you get CSM+1, +4 vs undead for free in points).
As an exercise for the reader, compare PAGK to command squad guys, which are limited to 1 per HQ. They do get two attacks, how much is the extra attack worth? 5 points?
If you find yourself saying you want pods and bikes and such, guess what? You don't want to play official Grey Knights anymore. Here's a suggestion, buy the CSM book and be done with it. If you have friends, they'd probably be fine with you taking my suggested chapter tactics. As for your Nemesis Dreadknights, call them a unit of centurions or the dreadnaught that they obviously should be.
If you want to focus on game design and point value, show us where the PAGK are over priced. A generic tactical is 14 points, generate no warp charge, has no force weapon, can't deepstrike has no access to psycannons or other GK weaponry and is not supportable by 33 point termies in anywhere in the codex, much less as troops.
They're also currently a rather bad Troops choice. Having Force Weapons on A1 models that cost 20 PPM but die like 14 PPM models isn't that good, and Plasma Guns or Meltaguns are easily comparable to Psycannons.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
If you want to focus on game design and point value, show us where the PAGK are over priced. A generic tactical is 14 points, generate no warp charge, has no force weapon, can't deepstrike has no access to psycannons or other GK weaponry and is not supportable by 33 point termies in anywhere in the codex, much less as troops.
They're also currently a rather bad Troops choice. Having Force Weapons on A1 models that cost 20 PPM but die like 14 PPM models isn't that good, and Plasma Guns or Meltaguns are easily comparable to Psycannons.
Exactly. The points cost didn't come with improved durability so if anything you could knock a point or two off on that fact alone.
You over-estimate Grey Knights. Infiltrators can't infiltrate less than 12" away from an enemy unit, and they can only get that close if no enemy unit has line of sight to them. Also, even if the entire Grey Knight army arrived within12" of the enemy with no scatter, 100% guaranteed on turn one, We still wouldn't be guaranteed victory. Tau and Eldar would murder us with the Interceptors and Overwatch.
1. Tables should *always* have at least 1 or 2 pieces of LoS blocking terrain. If not, then that's an issue to take-up with your group/LGS as perpetually playing games on planet bowling ball is obviously going to make certain armies nearly impossible to ever play against.
The problem with Infiltrate vs. Scout is that Infiltrate + Tely homers is basically 100% guaranteed alpha strike. As mentioned by others, even Drop Pods aren't this good. Being able to cripple/destroy 400-500+ pts worth of your opponent's army before they can blink is game ruining. Make the right target choices, and you can potentially have opponents in a position where they can't even fight back effectively.
2. You don't balance new books against the most obnoxious books. (at least with way GW does its releases, because then we end going back to the god-awful power creep of 5th edition...) Yes, Tau & Eldar are derpy and have amazing Interceptor abilities. They're still in the end only 2 of the dozen plus armies in the game however.
If you give Grey Knights an alpha strike ability that can over power the very best Tau/Eldar can put out, imagine just how godly that alpha strike will then be against the rest of the field!
ForeverARookie wrote: And I've played plenty of Librarians with Prescience, and it's not that big of a buff. Grey Knights already hit on a 3+, and all of their ranged damage is lost on the To-wound rolls and Saves, so Prescience isn't that helpful for them.
I can see your logic, but your way is not objectively better, and you don't have to be so abrasive in how you present it.
I think you're underestimating the power of re-rolls here. Re-rolling 3+ to-hits is huge as it's now a near assurance that nearly all your attacks will hit home outside of wonky dice. Basically allowing your unit to skip right to the to-wound stage is a solid ability.
If your 13-16 S4/ap5 hits are routinely not killing even a single Space Marine then either your dice suck and/or your opponent's dice are on absolute fire! Even with just 10 Storm Bolters vs. T4/3+ units, you should be averaging 16-20 hits, equalling 8-10 wounds and at least a couple of dead dudes. Now odds are you've also got some better guns in there, or else can supplement the bolter fire with templates to simply add more hits.
For Bro Captains, the added bonus of Divination is you get Prescience automatically and get to go fishing for Precognition, which is frankly a game-breaking power. ("what's that, I re-roll everything you say... including saves?! Ooooh yes-yes pretty please!") And if you don't get that, there's still Misfortune which is solid for a combat character, or else Forewarning which combos well with Sanctuary (3++ Land Raiders anyone?!).
Land the 'Overwatch at BS' or 'Ignore Cover' powers and you get yourself a solid buff bot that can literally just dare opponents to try and shift them.
For the added 20'ish pts, the sheer utility of having the ability to guarantee Prescience plus 1 other Div power makes the Bro Captain easily the equal of any basic Space Marine Captain, while a Chaos Lord will be forced to spend even more pts to equal him. (or else just say screw it and take Abaddon or Typhus, but I'd consider that outright cheating at the comparison game!)
You over-estimate Grey Knights. Infiltrators can't infiltrate less than 12" away from an enemy unit, and they can only get that close if no enemy unit has line of sight to them. Also, even if the entire Grey Knight army arrived within12" of the enemy with no scatter, 100% guaranteed on turn one, We still wouldn't be guaranteed victory. Tau and Eldar would murder us with the Interceptors and Overwatch.
1. Tables should *always* have at least 1 or 2 pieces of LoS blocking terrain. If not, then that's an issue to take-up with your group/LGS as perpetually playing games on planet bowling ball is obviously going to make certain armies nearly impossible to ever play against.
The problem with Infiltrate vs. Scout is that Infiltrate + Tely homers is basically 100% guaranteed alpha strike. As mentioned by others, even Drop Pods aren't this good. Being able to cripple/destroy 400-500+ pts worth of your opponent's army before they can blink is game ruining. Make the right target choices, and you can potentially have opponents in a position where they can't even fight back effectively.
Drop Pods are infinitely better than even Infiltrated Teleporter Homers, because you're not limited in where you can drop, other than really close to edges. You're also guaranteed to get half of them turn 1.
It's also only a guaranteed alpha strike if the enemy doesn't get first turn and wipes out your homers, something that can't happen to Drop Pods.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
If you want to focus on game design and point value, show us where the PAGK are over priced. A generic tactical is 14 points, generate no warp charge, has no force weapon, can't deepstrike has no access to psycannons or other GK weaponry and is not supportable by 33 point termies in anywhere in the codex, much less as troops.
They're also currently a rather bad Troops choice. Having Force Weapons on A1 models that cost 20 PPM but die like 14 PPM models isn't that good, and Plasma Guns or Meltaguns are easily comparable to Psycannons.
I'd totally trade PAGK Psycannons to get access to Meltaguns.
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: Drop Pods are infinitely better than even Infiltrated Teleporter Homers, because you're not limited in where you can drop, other than really close to edges. You're also guaranteed to get half of them turn 1.
It's also only a guaranteed alpha strike if the enemy doesn't get first turn and wipes out your homers, something that can't happen to Drop Pods.
I understand your position, and partially agree. I just can't picture anyone taking the Grey Knights' unique detachment if they only get the reduced scatter on turn 2 or later.
Also, if Drop Pods are infinitely better than Infiltrator Teleport Homers, why are the Infiltrators OP, when Drop Pods are not?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/10 23:08:30
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Drop Pods are infinitely better than even Infiltrated Teleporter Homers, because you're not limited in where you can drop, other than really close to edges. You're also guaranteed to get half of them turn 1.
It's also only a guaranteed alpha strike if the enemy doesn't get first turn and wipes out your homers, something that can't happen to Drop Pods.
I understand your position, and partially agree. I just can't picture anyone taking the Grey Knights' unique detachment if they only get the reduced scatter on turn 2 or later.
Also, if Drop Pods are infinitely better than Infiltrator Teleport Homers, why are the Infiltrators OP, when Drop Pods are not?
They're not, at least I've never argued that they are.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
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