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 Kilkrazy wrote:
This old canard again.

Four times now in this thread it has been pointed out that the Human Rights Act -- which exists! -- is nothing to do with the EU, and will not expire or be repealed if the UK leaves the EU.

Given this clear fact, it's useless to say that the left/liberals are calling for EU membership to enact human rights.

I completely agree with you on human rights - I'm just taking issue with the idea that we need to the EU to give us things that the British public are more than capable of demanding (better employment law for example) if they so choose.

It's been a common theme for a long time IMO, and unfortunately, people have bought into the idea that the EU protects human rights (amongst other things) when its clearly not the case.

But even if the EU was responsible for the human rights act, again I say, what was stopping the UK from having that years before? Nothing.

There are also plenty of people who have bought into the idea that because the EU protects human rights, it stops the UK government from kicking out illegal immigrants with cats, and the like, so we need to get out of the EU in order to reform the HRA.

They are wrong too.

Democracy, for all its flaws, is still the greatest thing that Europe ever gave the world. The EU, despite its good intentions, waters our democracy down. Its many institutions, populated by unaccountable pen pushers, remove the essential link between the governed and those who govern.

By watering down our democratic rights, the EU, is, essentially anti-European.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
What I mean is that for people to blame Polish builders on the low wages in the building industry is a simplification of a rather complicated situation.

If Poland specialises in exporting builders, we might have expected to see a marked increase in their immigration when the Spanish construction boom ended in 2008, but actually the rate has decreased significantly. We haven't seen a boom in Spanish builders either.

Obviously what I am saying here is also a simplification, but I am trying to illustrate that there are many different facets involved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is a report saying that far from too many Polish builders we are badly short of them.

http://www.citb.co.uk/news-events/uk/skills-gaps-threaten-27000-building-projects/

Why need a builder be Polish? Or any other profession be linked to race. All too often unemployed British people can do the job and are denied opportunity.
There were even industry comments that Eastern Europeans 'work harder' or the British were 'lazy'. If people replaced the nationalities with blacks and whites and it would be easy to see the racism for what it is.
I am not saying dont hire Poles, quite the opposite in fact, but discrimination has to be given a good kicking to curb.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
It'll be all those Indian spambots. They've always felt that the UK should be independent.

I mean, the poll is open to anyone on Dakka whatever their nationality, so I don't think its relevant at all to this discussion. I don't know why the OP bothered with it to be honest.

I voted "leave" for divilment, I must confess.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:
It'll be all those Indian spambots. They've always felt that the UK should be independent.

I mean, the poll is open to anyone on Dakka whatever their nationality, so I don't think its relevant at all to this discussion. I don't know why the OP bothered with it to be honest.

Because I believe in the truth, the integrity, the good that lies in every member of dakka

In all honesty, it was probably those damn Yankees, using money from a CIA slush fund, that messed around with the voting

What will we do when we close our borders, re-establish our own democracy and sovereignty and it still goes down the gakker.
We could always go back to blaming the Irish or blacks again I suppose.
Got to have a scapegoat.

 r_squared wrote:
What will we do when we close our borders, re-establish our own democracy and sovereignty and it still goes down the gakker.
We could always go back to blaming the Irish or blacks again I suppose.
Got to have a scapegoat.

The Tories will do just fine.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
This old canard again.
Four times now in this thread it has been pointed out that the Human Rights Act -- which exists! -- is nothing to do with the EU, and will not expire or be repealed if the UK leaves the EU.
Given this clear fact, it's useless to say that the left/liberals are calling for EU membership to enact human rights.

Why assume politicians tell the truth when a lie serves better.
We had the same all over the Indyref last year. The SNP warned Scots that a vote of No would mean a privatised NHS. However prior to this the NHS control had already be devolved, the only people who could privatise the NHS in Scotland are the Scottish parliament in Holyrood.

Also while the ECHR is separate from the EU, there are EU directives that effect 'rights'. EU immigration policy is a case in point. While the UK trend is majority anti-immigration at the current time, there is some validity to the idea that being in the EU better protects 'migrants rights'. I can see the progressive left forwarding this as an issue, assuming you agree with them that we should open the floodgates once more.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
What I mean is that for people to blame Polish builders on the low wages in the building industry is a simplification of a rather complicated situation.

If Poland specialises in exporting builders, we might have expected to see a marked increase in their immigration when the Spanish construction boom ended in 2008, but actually the rate has decreased significantly. We haven't seen a boom in Spanish builders either.

Obviously what I am saying here is also a simplification, but I am trying to illustrate that there are many different facets involved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is a report saying that far from too many Polish builders we are badly short of them.

http://www.citb.co.uk/news-events/uk/skills-gaps-threaten-27000-building-projects/

Why need a builder be Polish? Or any other profession be linked to race. All too often unemployed British people can do the job and are denied opportunity.
There were even industry comments that Eastern Europeans 'work harder' or the British were 'lazy'. If people replaced the nationalities with blacks and whites and it would be easy to see the racism for what it is.
I am not saying dont hire Poles, quite the opposite in fact, but discrimination has to be given a good kicking to curb.

I said Polish because of the cliche that building trades have been taken over largely by Poles. It's nothing to do with discrimination.

The point is that there is a big argument about whether immigration from EU countries is a good thing or a bad thing. Looking at the often used example of the building industry, we see a number of contradictions, to summarise:

House building in the UK runs far below requirements. (There are various reasons for this.)
Even despite this, there is a growing construction skills gap which isn't being filled by British apprentices or EU staff.
Since the Spanish building industry collapsed in 2008, there hasn't been a massive influx of EU builders into the UK.

At the least it is a confusion picture, and doesn't seem to support the contention that invasions of foreign staff are ruining our local economies.

Professionally speaking there are a number of reasons why Spanish (and Portuguese) builders did not influx to the UK construction industry (believe me there were some), the biggest being there is a welfare system in Spain to support them but also barriers in the building methods they use and quality of the end product.

Conversely Polish builders (the example given) generally were to high standards on dry trades which the London market has had a high demand for. The same can be said for many national s from that part of Europe as well as India where there are allot of Carpenters coming from these days. I should also like to note that allot of Construction professionals are active in London not just labour. Much of the leg work in Architecture is done by Poles, ditto technical management.

I have sites on which I have employed up to 400 men a day, you get more problems with some Brits than anyone else. It a cultural thing though, most of the Brits consider themselves Artisans or Specialists these days, want top rates to work but look for any reason not to. They start in the morning, set up and then go for breakfast, start on work for a few hours then look to leave early to beat the traffic.

We've run apprenticeship schemes for the unemployed where half the Brits stop after a few days because of early mornings, had to get rid of one chap who refused to wear a helmet the right way around?

Madness.

Of course these are extreme examples as there is no shortage of decent Brit workers but I have no problems from Poles, Ghanaians, Bulgars, Romanians, Indians, etc.

All things being equal the Brit should get the job based on having English as a first language and being based here, certainly at the most basic level of labour but Brits don't want to carry and clean, even when they're good for nothing else.

The EU needs reform, the workers from Europe are not the problem.

Trouble with the above is that it racially stereotypes.

Compare the two comments

"...... but Brits don't want to carry and clean, even when they're good for nothing else."

"..... but blacks don't want to carry and clean, even when they're good for nothing else."

If you said the latter you would be pilloried, say the former and its ok. There is a malaise in the UK workforce, but much of that is to do with the sanctioned discrimination that occurs. This worker is Polish therefore he likely works hard, this one is British therefore he is lazy isn't fair, isn't accurate and shouldn't be in any way acceptable.

It comes about because you are comparing first generation migrants against an entire population. The especially workshy from Poland wont make the trip, a workshy Briton doesnt need to. Some people are unemployable but others will do the work. However stereotyping means the opportunity is not there.


However the racist attitude that British workers are lazy has caused recruitment to be centred abroad for some projects. Many UK building projects have opened recruitment in eastern Europe, particularly Poland and not offered the work at all to Uk based agencies. When commented on by the press and polticians assumptions that British workers are lazy were vocalised openly. This hit a scandal in 2008 and later in 2011.

It is also interesting that these mentalities exist at a time when very similar comments are a much highlighted cultural taboo.

As for architects, thats a very mobile profession. The UK is doing itself short by the current system of university fees as architecture is the longest degree course, tied with veterinary studies at seven years. The UK will very shortly begin to have a serous shortfall of architects (and veterinarians) due to this policy. However the effects wont kick in until after 2020.

Question:

Of course these are extreme examples as there is no shortage of decent Brit workers but I have no problems from Poles, Ghanaians, Bulgars, Romanians, Indians, etc.

When commenting on the above, what is an Indian? what is a Brit? How would you categorise an asian origin British citizen, there are a lot of Anglo-Indians in the workforce. I have to wonder if an british born Indian hard worker is Indian, if he is workshy or incompetent he is Brit.

It is very interesting to get your professional perspective. Thanks, notprop.

Kind of reminds me of working for Amazon. Most of the work force was foreign, I'd say it was at least 60-70% Eastern European. There weren't an awful of of Brits working there. And Swansea isn't exactly known for its large foreign community either.

I don't know whether it was because the work was hard, or because you could literally turn up and they'd give you a job (and then kick you out if you were useless, Amazon is good like that.) so that you didn't actually need any requirements to get employed. But the money was damn good ( I was on 2K a month while I was there, and all I was doing was manual labour) at well over minimum wage. Where any of the Brits lazy? Quite a few were, but then so we're some of the foreign workers too.

 Orlanth wrote:

Spoiler:

Trouble with the above is that it racially stereotypes.

Compare the two comments

"...... but Brits don't want to carry and clean, even when they're good for nothing else."

"..... but blacks don't want to carry and clean, even when they're good for nothing else."

If you said the latter you would be pilloried, say the former and its ok. There is a malaise in the UK workforce, but much of that is to do with the sanctioned discrimination that occurs. This worker is Polish therefore he likely works hard, this one is British therefore he is lazy isn't fair, isn't accurate and shouldn't be in any way acceptable.

It comes about because you are comparing first generation migrants against an entire population. The especially workshy from Poland wont make the trip, a workshy Briton doesnt need to. Some people are unemployable but others will do the work. However stereotyping means the opportunity is not there.


However the racist attitude that British workers are lazy has caused recruitment to be centred abroad for some projects. Many UK building projects have opened recruitment in eastern Europe, particularly Poland and not offered the work at all to Uk based agencies. When commented on by the press and polticians assumptions that British workers are lazy were vocalised openly. This hit a scandal in 2008 and later in 2011.

It is also interesting that these mentalities exist at a time when very similar comments are a much highlighted cultural taboo.

As for architects, thats a very mobile profession. The UK is doing itself short by the current system of university fees as architecture is the longest degree course, tied with veterinary studies at seven years. The UK will very shortly begin to have a serous shortfall of architects (and veterinarians) due to this policy. However the effects wont kick in until after 2020.

Question:

Of course these are extreme examples as there is no shortage of decent Brit workers but I have no problems from Poles, Ghanaians, Bulgars, Romanians, Indians, etc.

When commenting on the above, what is an Indian? what is a Brit? How would you categorise an asian origin British citizen, there are a lot of Anglo-Indians in the workforce. I have to wonder if an british born Indian hard worker is Indian, if he is workshy or incompetent he is Brit

.

I think the trouble with your post is that you have knee jerked you way into some strange racial tangent. Pack it in, it's not the topic and it's boring.

There is a definite cultural divides though that can contribute to the perceived differences and some of this is in the way the industry operates and the respective positions people will fill.

Most Brits;
- will have families, homes and hobbies they will want to spend time on, probably outside of London - work day will shorten
- will be directly employed by companies, having duties across multiple sites - time split and pressure to leave for other works

Most foreign workers;
- will not have families with them and will be in basic digs near to site - workday will lengthen as they do not have the pressure to leave.
- will be employed by labour agencies/gangs and on price work, that is to say they are paid by works complete. i.e. The more dryline they erect the more they get paid so will knock out as much work as they can in the available hours..

I had a situation about 7 years ago where I needed 30 dryliners/plasters to work weekend for the final 6 weeks of a project to complete on time. I was paying all on something called Daywork, which is an agreed hourly rate at something like 170-200% of the normal daily rate, so that's circa £10k per day in labour costs. The company responsible had to submit a record sheet with the hours worked for each operative over each weekend for us to approve. We supervised the works so has a fair idea of what was being done but the Daywork sheets compared against the Biometric gate records showed an interesting trend. The Brits in the workforce (amusingly the company directors sons gang) all left before noon and claimed a full days pay; the other workers claimed a full day but were present for that time (sometimes more). I've seen this repeated a number of time since then, so when I suggest some Brits need to pull their fingers out a bit then its because its a commercial reality to me and others in the construction industry.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Kind of reminds me of working for Amazon. Most of the work force was foreign, I'd say it was at least 60-70% Eastern European. There weren't an awful of of Brits working there. And Swansea isn't exactly known for its large foreign community either.

I don't know whether it was because the work was hard, or because you could literally turn up and they'd give you a job (and then kick you out if you were useless, Amazon is good like that.) so that you didn't actually need any requirements to get employed. But the money was damn good ( I was on 2K a month while I was there, and all I was doing was manual labour) at well over minimum wage. Where any of the Brits lazy? Quite a few were, but then so we're some of the foreign workers too.

I know someone who worked at Amazon in their depot near Hemel Hempstead IIRC. I was a passenger in the car at the time he was collected from work once (we all then headed off for a game). I got the impression Amazon were real ballbreakers, treated staff like dirt and were exceptionally picky too even with visitors waiting to collect staff at end of shift. 'Dont get out of the car, if its reported it could be a mark against me, and they only need two, no matter how trivial.' Wages were not good at this depot either, certainly not 2k month.

 Orlanth wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Kind of reminds me of working for Amazon. Most of the work force was foreign, I'd say it was at least 60-70% Eastern European. There weren't an awful of of Brits working there. And Swansea isn't exactly known for its large foreign community either.

I don't know whether it was because the work was hard, or because you could literally turn up and they'd give you a job (and then kick you out if you were useless, Amazon is good like that.) so that you didn't actually need any requirements to get employed. But the money was damn good ( I was on 2K a month while I was there, and all I was doing was manual labour) at well over minimum wage. Where any of the Brits lazy? Quite a few were, but then so we're some of the foreign workers too.

I know someone who worked at Amazon in their depot near Hemel Hempstead IIRC. I was a passenger in the car at the time he was collected from work once (we all then headed off for a game). I got the impression Amazon were real ballbreakers, treated staff like dirt and were exceptionally picky too even with visitors waiting to collect staff at end of shift. 'Dont get out of the car, if its reported it could be a mark against me, and they only need two, no matter how trivial.' Wages were not good at this depot either, certainly not 2k month.

Wasn't there a bit od a furore last summer about them having not AC or air treatment in their facility but instead having an Ambulance prepared on site for anyone that was overcome.

 notprop wrote:

I think the trouble with your post is that you have knee jerked you way into some strange racial tangent. Pack it in, it's not the topic and it's boring.

I am not the one sterotyping entire cultural groups. In fairness I am not blaming you for that either, but it is something that is happening alot, and is happening openly, in an age where discrimination is a major cultural focus. It is also of interest to highlight how some stereotypes are a strongly enforced taboo, while others are not. In fact when you are calling me to 'pack it in' wherein the dialectic would be entirely different had you stereotyped another group,

Also it ISNT a kneejerk. Build projects that employ directly via overseas agencies is a common enough trend. If the work is only advertised outside the Uk how can it not discriminate against local workforce?

 notprop wrote:

Most Brits;
- will have families, homes and hobbies they will want to spend time on, probably outside of London - work day will shorten
- will be directly employed by companies, having duties across multiple sites - time split and pressure to leave for other works

Most foreign workers;
- will not have families with them and will be in basic digs near to site - workday will lengthen as they do not have the pressure to leave.
- will be employed by labour agencies/gangs and on price work, that is to say they are paid by works complete. i.e. The more dryline they erect the more they get paid so will knock out as much work as they can in the available hours..

You are correct that a higher proportion of indigenous workers will have local family connections. It shouldn't really be relevant, and assuming a status based on point of origin is unfair. Hopefully you would not look at an immigrant worker and ask him or her if they have their family over before seeing of they are suitable for employment.

Can we assume workday 'lengthening' means overtime. Having a family could well be an incentive to stay longer and earn overtime to pay for your family. I don't know if this is the case in the building industry, but I particularly saw a lot of overtime seeking from dads in the warehouse and security industry, because the more money earned meant the more they could do for those they loved.
Also the social class the combined warehouse, building work etc includes a lot of separated families. Often with court directed child maintenance fees. It's common enough in Hertfordshire, so likely London too. Admittedly single immigrant workers are also seeking overtime to send the money abroad.

 notprop wrote:

I had a situation about 7 years ago where I needed 30 dryliners/plasters to work weekend for the final 6 weeks of a project to complete on time. I was paying all on something called Daywork, which is an agreed hourly rate at something like 170-200% of the normal daily rate, so that's circa £10k per day in labour costs. The company responsible had to submit a record sheet with the hours worked for each operative over each weekend for us to approve. We supervised the works so has a fair idea of what was being done but the Daywork sheets compared against the Biometric gate records showed an interesting trend. The Brits in the workforce (amusingly the company directors sons gang) all left before noon and claimed a full days pay; the other workers claimed a full day but were present for that time (sometimes more). I've seen this repeated a number of time since then, so when I suggest some Brits need to pull their fingers out a bit then its because its a commercial reality to me and others in the construction industry.

What you are seeing is mates of the boss's son playing the system. Its probably want amusing as such I suspect, more exasperating. Were the shirkers not 'the company directors sons gang' they would likely have been disciplined or even dismissed. Gang is an interesting term to choose to describe them also.
It actually appears from your wording your company employed foreign staff except some British staff who are all connected to the family that owned the business and largely shirked off.
This actually says very little about 'Brits'. This sort of privilege an abuse can occur in any society and from any racial group.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 notprop wrote:


Wasn't there a bit od a furore last summer about them having not AC or air treatment in their facility but instead having an Ambulance prepared on site for anyone that was overcome.

Must be somewhere else, or at a different time. My friend who worked there would have mentioned something like that. The atmosphere was bad in a difference sense.

 notprop wrote:

I had a situation about 7 years ago where I needed 30 dryliners/plasters to work weekend for the final 6 weeks of a project to complete on time. I was paying all on something called Daywork, which is an agreed hourly rate at something like 170-200% of the normal daily rate, so that's circa £10k per day in labour costs. The company responsible had to submit a record sheet with the hours worked for each operative over each weekend for us to approve. We supervised the works so has a fair idea of what was being done but the Daywork sheets compared against the Biometric gate records showed an interesting trend. The Brits in the workforce (amusingly the company directors sons gang) all left before noon and claimed a full days pay; the other workers claimed a full day but were present for that time (sometimes more). I've seen this repeated a number of time since then, so when I suggest some Brits need to pull their fingers out a bit then its because its a commercial reality to me and others in the construction industry.

This sounds like the bosses son was expoiting the project with the protection of family ties and is not representative of British attitudes to work.
I've enjoyed your input here but that is not a great example of British workers being lazy, moreone of how you had first hand experience of the shenanigans of personal connections within business.

All the trades people i know are extremely hard working, can't comment on their moments of weakness/tiredness (anyone can have a bad day) but don't think that because they finish early they must be lazy.

It also has to be said that if you migrate you don't have the same 'life baggage' with you - not having a missus to answer to or children to care for frees you to make decisions about when and where you work.
Also, If you want to move to a different country your attitude toward work changes - i was going to move to holland before i got made redundant back in 2007-8 and the types of job and hours i was looking at was much lower down the chain than in the uk. I was the quality control manager at an electronics production firm and the types of job i was looking at in holland were in bakerys and on farms; i was happy to accept the drop in wages because i was pleased to be going to live somewhere that i wanted to live. I started learning dutch and everything.

I'm not denying for a minute that bad and/or lazy British workers exist, but for years, I have been listening to employers slander British workers, and it gets my goat.

From my own experience, working a 40 hour work on minimum wage, in a boring/dull job, is not a good thing.

As soon as you get your pay, you lose tax and NI money, money for gas and electricity, transport costs, food costs, and rent/mortgage costs.

When that's been deducted, you are left with feth all

and you ask yourself: is it worth it? No...

There was an idiot on the radio the other day, wondering why Brits don't want to work on a farm picking vegetables.

Well, I'll tell you the above reasons, pal!

It's all very well for 10 east Europeans crammed into digs, splitting their costs 10 ways, but not for your average Brit struggling to keep a roof over their head.

Said East European will soon be out of his digs and into a flat, he'll then start a business if he can.

They're valued because they get on with it, whatever it is. Unlike the above poster they won't be bleating about a 40 hour week, mostly in the construction industry they will be working 50 hours and still not complaining. I have Gurhkas working security on 15 hour shifts, they have the option to split this but do not want to. Top fellers.

It all comes down to attitude and professionalism some people don't think thy have to offer either for minimum wage. I disagree.

 notprop wrote:
Said East European will soon be out of his digs and into a flat, he'll then start a business if he can.

They're valued because they get on with it, whatever it is. Unlike the above poster they won't be bleating about a 40 hour week, mostly in the construction industry they will be working 50 hours and still not complaining. I have Gurhkas working security on 15 hour shifts, they have the option to split this but do not want to. Top fellers.

It all comes down to attitude and professionalism some people don't think thy have to offer either for minimum wage. I disagree.

Indeed. Say what you will about immigrants, but they usually have an excellent work ethic. And that's why they can out compete people on jobs.

 notprop wrote:
Said East European will soon be out of his digs and into a flat, he'll then start a business if he can.

They're valued because they get on with it, whatever it is. Unlike the above poster they won't be bleating about a 40 hour week, mostly in the construction industry they will be working 50 hours and still not complaining. I have Gurhkas working security on 15 hour shifts, they have the option to split this but do not want to. Top fellers.

It all comes down to attitude and professionalism some people don't think thy have to offer either for minimum wage. I disagree.

Translation: I prefer workers who don't want a personal life, will work long hours and weekends, often overtime for the normal rate, don't take holidays, and will doff their caps at me at every opportunity


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Said East European will soon be out of his digs and into a flat, he'll then start a business if he can.

They're valued because they get on with it, whatever it is. Unlike the above poster they won't be bleating about a 40 hour week, mostly in the construction industry they will be working 50 hours and still not complaining. I have Gurhkas working security on 15 hour shifts, they have the option to split this but do not want to. Top fellers.

It all comes down to attitude and professionalism some people don't think thy have to offer either for minimum wage. I disagree.

Indeed. Say what you will about immigrants, but they usually have an excellent work ethic. And that's why they can out compete people on jobs.

My father had an excellent work ethic. Left school at 16, was never out of work for 50 years, including a lot of building site work, and now has two false hips and dodgy lungs....

I like work, but I don't love it...

Well, speaking for myself, who worked a 40 hour 7-4 job Mon - Fri in a small factory for 9 months operating machinery and driving forklifts, the reason I frequently turned down overtime on weekends was because my boss would always ask me at the last minute, 4pm on a Friday.

Nevermind that my grandfather had recently died, and I was trying to visit my grandmother on saturdays with my dad as often as possible to give her some company, or that I had personal commitments (I joined the committee of my gaming club and I'm one of the two people with keys to open up and handle subs etc). He'd always ask me at the last minute expecting me to cancel plans with little to no notice.

There were also times early on when machines were breaking down a lot, and we'd miss our production quotas for the day, and he'd ask us to stay back for several hours doing literally nothing, waiting for the machines to be fixed so we could finish the work we should have done by 4pm... In the middle of winter, in an unheated factory open to the elements. Understandably, I wasn't particularly keen to do this on a regular basis.


Does that make me lazy?

It makes you someone that won't stand out.

I had a similar job at Uni. I got paid a day rate so no overtime, we'd have to wait for lorries from the continent. The day finished when those lorries were unloaded.

I could have stood about drinking tea or smoking but I would set up the computer and printers for the next days deliveries while I waited. I the part time junior was soon out earning the full time vets.

Work is work, put more effort in and mostly you get more out.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Well, speaking for myself, who worked a 40 hour 7-4 job Mon - Fri in a small factory for 9 months operating machinery and driving forklifts, the reason I frequently turned down overtime on weekends was because my boss would always ask me at the last minute, 4pm on a Friday.

Nevermind that my grandfather had recently died, and I was trying to visit my grandmother on saturdays with my dad as often as possible to give her some company, or that I had personal commitments (I joined the committee of my gaming club and I'm one of the two people with keys to open up and handle subs etc). He'd always ask me at the last minute expecting me to cancel plans with little to no notice.

There were also times early on when machines were breaking down a lot, and we'd miss our production quotas for the day, and he'd ask us to stay back for several hours doing literally nothing, waiting for the machines to be fixed so we could finish the work we should have done by 4pm... In the middle of winter, in an unheated factory open to the elements. Understandably, I wasn't particularly keen to do this on a regular basis.


Does that make me lazy?

No, it doesn't make you lazy. You just come to the same conclusion as I have - that once you've worked 40 hours a week on minimum wage, and paid all your bills, you have hardly anything left in your pocket, and you wonder why you bother...

For as long as I've lived, I've seen British workers being slandered as lazy and workshy, and it's usually by people who have an agenda of wanting to bring in workers who'll work for less, or work long hours without complaint, usually from abroad.

My impression of Britain was that everyone works at a fairly hard pace. There's not as much value placed on work-life balance as Ireland or Germany I think.

I was really impressed by the work ethic of British teachers that I saw. They work like maniacs for lower wages than their equivalents in other countries, and have to put up with disrespect from parents, politicians and kids.

In the international system you often see British teachers getting promotions because of their work ethic and drive. Both of my direct managers are British.

I don't know how well that translates into other fields, but I certainly would not consider British people to be workshy.

But there's a dichotomy where there seems to be a bit of an embedded non-working underclass at the same time. To me, it struck me as a fairly extreme divide between the workers and the not-workers.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Said East European will soon be out of his digs and into a flat, he'll then start a business if he can.

They're valued because they get on with it, whatever it is. Unlike the above poster they won't be bleating about a 40 hour week, mostly in the construction industry they will be working 50 hours and still not complaining. I have Gurhkas working security on 15 hour shifts, they have the option to split this but do not want to. Top fellers.

It all comes down to attitude and professionalism some people don't think thy have to offer either for minimum wage. I disagree.

Indeed. Say what you will about immigrants, but they usually have an excellent work ethic. And that's why they can out compete people on jobs.

My father had an excellent work ethic. Left school at 16, was never out of work for 50 years, including a lot of building site work, and now has two false hips and dodgy lungs....

I like work, but I don't love it...

I'm not saying non-immigrants can't also have good work ethic, but its definitely lacking from the general population. At least here in the US.

You can't get most Americans to do manual labor for even $20 an hour(or even more, depending on how well you do on the piece rate).

 Da Boss wrote:
My impression of Britain was that everyone works at a fairly hard pace. There's not as much value placed on work-life balance as Ireland or Germany I think.

I was really impressed by the work ethic of British teachers that I saw. They work like maniacs for lower wages than their equivalents in other countries, and have to put up with disrespect from parents, politicians and kids.

In the international system you often see British teachers getting promotions because of their work ethic and drive. Both of my direct managers are British.

I don't know how well that translates into other fields, but I certainly would not consider British people to be workshy.

But there's a dichotomy where there seems to be a bit of an embedded non-working underclass at the same time. To me, it struck me as a fairly extreme divide between the workers and the not-workers.

There's a certain group in Britain, let's call them employers who think that if you're not working 23 hours a day, 7 seven days a week to make them richer, then you're workshy and not as hardworking as Johnny Foreigner