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 luke1705 wrote:
I like the BA idea for pairing up with guard. Helps address a lot of the knights’ weaknesses, and gives you another CP farm.

I’m looking at something like:

Raven
Castellan (4++, relic plasma)
Warden (landstrider)
Gallant (either 5++ in combat or paragon gauntlet)

Cadian Battalion
2 Company Commanders (kurov’s, grand strategist)
2 infantry squads w/1 mortar
1 normal infantry squad

BA Battalion
Mephiston
Slamguinius (Vitas Veritae)
3 x 5 Scouts

You’ll be better off with just 2x Castellan, 1x Helverin (hide it at the backline), Meph, Captain with Angels Wings, Scouts, CC, Primaris Psyker, 3 Inf Squads with mortars. Melee knights I just don’t understand. They are too big, can’t fly and actually can run into many units that wreck them in CC even if they get there.

Tanaris is always a pretty solid choice. Who doesn’t want to have knights that live longer?

That said, I’d never use more than one gallant. They really want full tilt used on them for turn one charges, which isn’t going to work here. It means that at least two knights will have zero effect on turn one, which means you’re playing with 1300 points that turn.

I’d much rather have an errant or warden that can shoot on turn one and charge in turn two. Killing things on turn one means they don’t kill you, so you’re alive to kill something else on turn two. This is especially important for knights, which are vulnerable to some very specific stuff. Kill that stuff early on and the game will go well. Charge info an undamaged army and it will not.

Think he said above,

He wants to do some zombie knight shenanigans for amusement.

And who could blame him. Go team zombie!

Mandragola wrote:
Tanaris is always a pretty solid choice. Who doesn’t want to have knights that live longer?

That said, I’d never use more than one gallant. They really want full tilt used on them for turn one charges, which isn’t going to work here. It means that at least two knights will have zero effect on turn one, which means you’re playing with 1300 points that turn.

I’d much rather have an errant or warden that can shoot on turn one and charge in turn two. Killing things on turn one means they don’t kill you, so you’re alive to kill something else on turn two. This is especially important for knights, which are vulnerable to some very specific stuff. Kill that stuff early on and the game will go well. Charge info an undamaged army and it will not.

I- you want to kill something turn 1 gallant is bad anyway. It will kill something only if opponent allows and anything opponent allows isn't going to be critical. More like trap

 Therion wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
I like the BA idea for pairing up with guard. Helps address a lot of the knights’ weaknesses, and gives you another CP farm.

I’m looking at something like:

Raven
Castellan (4++, relic plasma)
Warden (landstrider)
Gallant (either 5++ in combat or paragon gauntlet)

Cadian Battalion
2 Company Commanders (kurov’s, grand strategist)
2 infantry squads w/1 mortar
1 normal infantry squad

BA Battalion
Mephiston
Slamguinius (Vitas Veritae)
3 x 5 Scouts

You’ll be better off with just 2x Castellan, 1x Helverin (hide it at the backline), Meph, Captain with Angels Wings, Scouts, CC, Primaris Psyker, 3 Inf Squads with mortars. Melee knights I just don’t understand. They are too big, can’t fly and actually can run into many units that wreck them in CC even if they get there.

I understand that sentiment, but having the knights means that I'll have more melee threats for those guys to deal with

Had a match with my friend. IK vs Ik army. Valiant was fun. He brought 2 amigers, a lance of Gallant, Valiant and 2 battalions of IG. He had CP out of the walzo because he used grand strategist and that CP relic so he was getting back CP on a 5+.

I brought a battalion of mechanicus (barebones 2 engineseers and 3 squads of rangers). A lance of Castelan, Valiant and Gallant.

My Valiant accounted for at least 4 squads of his IG, and 2 commanders. And also helped out to kill his big knights and amigers.

It ended with him having a 2 man squad holding one objective, his remaining two commanders hiding. And my 2 Dominus class holding the other two objectives (holding objectives was important).

My Valiant survived to the end with just 2 hp remaining but was effective throughout because its confragation cannon does not degrade.

I think I would have lost the objective game if not for my Valiant. That flamer literally erases one squad of IG each time it goes off. And if a Valiant wants to take an objective, a few squads of IG are not gonna stop it. lol (I mean, it may slow it down for a turn, or two, but its not gonna stop it from taking that objective).

His Valiant accounted for itself well too. It stood up to a charge and 5 attacks from my Gallant and did not die. Its overwatch took off like 12 hp from my Gallant. And when he double charged my Gallant with his Valiant and Gallant, it was his Valiant that did the finishing blow after his Gallant failed to kill my already injured Gallant.

IK vs IK is fun. ^^

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Think he said above,

He wants to do some zombie knight shenanigans for amusement.

And who could blame him. Go team zombie!

lol zombie knight needs added to the dakka dictionary


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In other news instead of a ig cp battery I’m trying mechanicus so I can shut down psychic powers

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Had a match with my friend. IK vs Ik army. Valiant was fun. He brought 2 amigers, a lance of Gallant, Valiant and 2 battalions of IG. He had CP out of the walzo because he used grand strategist and that CP relic so he was getting back CP on a 5+.

I brought a battalion of mechanicus (barebones 2 engineseers and 3 squads of rangers). A lance of Castelan, Valiant and Gallant.

My Valiant accounted for at least 4 squads of his IG, and 2 commanders. And also helped out to kill his big knights and amigers.

It ended with him having a 2 man squad holding one objective, his remaining two commanders hiding. And my 2 Dominus class holding the other two objectives (holding objectives was important).

My Valiant survived to the end with just 2 hp remaining but was effective throughout because its confragation cannon does not degrade.

I think I would have lost the objective game if not for my Valiant. That flamer literally erases one squad of IG each time it goes off. And if a Valiant wants to take an objective, a few squads of IG are not gonna stop it. lol (I mean, it may slow it down for a turn, or two, but its not gonna stop it from taking that objective).

His Valiant accounted for itself well too. It stood up to a charge and 5 attacks from my Gallant and did not die. Its overwatch took off like 12 hp from my Gallant. And when he double charged my Gallant with his Valiant and Gallant, it was his Valiant that did the finishing blow after his Gallant failed to kill my already injured Gallant.

IK vs IK is fun. ^^

That does sound glorious

gendoikari87 wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Think he said above,

He wants to do some zombie knight shenanigans for amusement.

And who could blame him. Go team zombie!

lol zombie knight needs added to the dakka dictionary


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In other news instead of a ig cp battery I’m trying mechanicus so I can shut down psychic powers

Braaaaaaaaaains

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The thing is, 600 pts for a NOPE bubble is absurdly overpriced. The flamer is great, don't get me wrong. But, the Harpoon is lackluster. Maybe if it was a melee weapon too (complete with a bonus to hit so the Valiant doesn't suck in melee). And maybe if it had a more unified role, it would be better. If they wanted it to hunt hordes, make both of its weapons work toward that. I dunno. Schizo has never really worked great in 40K.

But really, tell me you don't like the idea of the Valiant swinging that Harpoon around like a flail.

I will still paint my Valiant up nice. But I don't think it will ever see play at its points level. Reductions required.

I do agree that the Valiant should have some sort of melee option for that Harpoon. Or maybe the ability to use it as a pistol in close combat at a weaker statline.

However, the Valiant is not just its harpoon. It's not just its Conflagration cannon either. Comparing it to the Castellan, both have the missiles and shoulder cannons and both have the 4 melta guns as well. You say that the harpoon is useless turn one on the Valiant. Well, the melta guns are useless on the Castellan through the entire game if you're playing it right. 4 Melta guns have a higher chance to hit than the harpoon, there being 4 of them after all, and could potentially do much more damage than the harpoon with some decent hits and wounds. Up close and personal, where the Valiant wants to be, you might even get into half-range of those melta guns on your target.

But the Conflagration Cannon is truly where the Valiant shines. It's not just the 12" bubble of 'NOPE' for the harpoon, its' an 18" bubble of DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT. Like I said before, it denies one of the greatest weaknesses of Knights: no save in close combat. Try to charge a Valiant. 3d6 auto hits will guarantee that you're taking wounds before getting in. 2 damage and -2 save means even the toughest infantry are going to lose models before they get in to start swinging. Couple that with Hawkshroud and their stratagem and you can overwatch on behalf of a vulnerable Crusader and annihilate even beefier things like Wraithknights and Dreadnoughts.

More importantly, and more strategically, the Valiant forces a style of play that's better for competitive tournaments: Moving up and taking objectives. There's a tendency for ranged knights to sit back in a lane of fire and just shoot at whatever's visible, and that's fine and all, but when it comes to winning games, holding objectives and denying them to your opponent is much more important. This is where the Valiant shines. That 18" range DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT bubble turns into a 36+" area of denial (plus the size of the base). Knights have big enough bases that they can completely deny an objective to a group of troops, and the Valiant can single-handedly clear off an objective, a thing that it can do because it moves up and gets into the thick of it, where it wants to be, where a Castellan is going to be too afraid to get into.

drbored wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The thing is, 600 pts for a NOPE bubble is absurdly overpriced. The flamer is great, don't get me wrong. But, the Harpoon is lackluster. Maybe if it was a melee weapon too (complete with a bonus to hit so the Valiant doesn't suck in melee). And maybe if it had a more unified role, it would be better. If they wanted it to hunt hordes, make both of its weapons work toward that. I dunno. Schizo has never really worked great in 40K.

But really, tell me you don't like the idea of the Valiant swinging that Harpoon around like a flail.

I will still paint my Valiant up nice. But I don't think it will ever see play at its points level. Reductions required.

I do agree that the Valiant should have some sort of melee option for that Harpoon. Or maybe the ability to use it as a pistol in close combat at a weaker statline.

Why give something that can fall back and then shoot and charge a pistol?

drbored wrote:

However, the Valiant is not just its harpoon. It's not just its Conflagration cannon either. Comparing it to the Castellan, both have the missiles and shoulder cannons and both have the 4 melta guns as well. You say that the harpoon is useless turn one on the Valiant. Well, the melta guns are useless on the Castellan through the entire game if you're playing it right. 4 Melta guns have a higher chance to hit than the harpoon, there being 4 of them after all, and could potentially do much more damage than the harpoon with some decent hits and wounds. Up close and personal, where the Valiant wants to be, you might even get into half-range of those melta guns on your target.
.

If you play it right castellan is moving forward and thus will get into melta right. You think because castellan has long range it has to stay far. Wrong. It dmesn't gain anything by staying far. Thus right play is move forward

So i am running a silly list of:

Cadian: 3CP
2 Shadowswords
1 Banehammer
Cadian: 5CP
2 commanders
3 troop Squads
Imperial Knight: 3CP
Castellan

2k points

My question is what House/relics/Stratagems would be best for the Castellan ?
My thoughts were House: Hawkshroud for the Double Characteristics. Relic would be Cawls Wrath for the better Plasma Decimator.
I am also on the fence if i need to put the relic on the Commander to regain CP or do i make the Castellan Warlord and give him Ion Bulwark ?

Are there better ways to run the Single Castellan and more CP efficient ?

You don't gain CPs for the Auxiliary detachment; knight Lance is a rule for full SHD only.

First paragraph of Abilities on that page: SHAD does not gain Knight Lance or Household Traditions

 zedsdead wrote:
So i am running a silly list of:

Cadian: 3CP
2 Shadowswords
1 Banehammer
Cadian: 5CP
2 commanders
3 troop Squads
Imperial Knight: 3CP
Castellan

2k points

My question is what House/relics/Stratagems would be best for the Castellan ?
My thoughts were House: Hawkshroud for the Double Characteristics. Relic would be Cawls Wrath for the better Plasma Decimator.
I am also on the fence if i need to put the relic on the Commander to regain CP or do i make the Castellan Warlord and give him Ion Bulwark ?

Are there better ways to run the Single Castellan and more CP efficient ?

You're not getting 3CP for merely having one big knight, you still need to fill out the Super heavy detachment. You can take a single knight but then it is in a super heavy auxiliary detachment and you get no CP and lose out on household traditions. As for the best fit for the Castellan?

Questor mechanicus aligned so you can take the relic plasma but other than that there a few decent fits. Vulker for somewhat easy reroll 1's and a good stratagem for 1 CP. Raven for extra speed and a great stratagem. Taranis for durability and zombieknights (apparently a thing now haha). House krast has a good warlord trait that helps out a lot with shooty knights. I think there's a decent argument for each and every one of them but I suggest you plop in two armigers so you get the traditions and 3CP, then maybe house raven is a bit more tempting?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You don't gain CPs for the Auxiliary detachment; knight Lance is a rule for full SHD only.

First paragraph of Abilities on that page: SHAD does not gain Knight Lance or Household Traditions

ok thanks.

so if i ran a single Castellan as a freeblade what would be the best loadout ?

Would still take raven. Awesome strategem and cawl's wrath

Wulfey wrote:
I vote for house RAVEN with castellan and 2 armigers. 4++ and Cawl's wrath on the castellan.

Agreed, pop the Raven Stratagem to reroll all your 1s and you will have glorious firepower. The 4++ will help keep it alive a little bit longer and as a Mechanicus, you can always play "Machine Spirit Resurgent" if your opponent weakens it but doesn't manage to finish it off.

Raven it is and with 17CP before tax the stratagem will be heavily abused

[2000] - Bobby G and the Imperial Knights feat. Astra Militarum [POST FAQ] - Competitive

Any way for you to find 42 points(maybe downgrade from crusader to warden or errant)?

A Techpriest Enginseer can really help keep your Castellan alive or close to full power.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Any way for you to find 42 points(maybe downgrade from crusader to warden or errant)?

A Techpriest Enginseer can really help keep your Castellan alive or close to full power.

I'm not sure that 1 wound per turn is worth it frankly.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Any way for you to find 42 points(maybe downgrade from crusader to warden or errant)?

A Techpriest Enginseer can really help keep your Castellan alive or close to full power.

I've thought about and it would be ok i think if i was running AdMech instead of AM. The thing is i think the Castellan will be nuked heavily so repairing 1 or even 3w a turn won't cut it. I'll be using the Mechanicus Machine Spirit Resurgent stratagem instead to go top tier when needed.

Agreed, Knights usually take so many wounds per turn that an extra one here or there is rarely enough to make a difference. Perhaps every once in a while it will mean your opponent has to dedicate another unit to finishing it off but not often enough be worth it is my gut instinct.

D3 per turn would be more worth it but I can see that would maybe be a bit OP if techmarines could heal knights as they could actually keep up with a knight.

So happy about the FAQs! More motivated than ever to finish my Knights now. Forgeworld Knights are go, and more CP. Just perfect!

Keep in mind that because of how Heirlooms of the Household and Exalted Court are worded, Cerastus class Knights can't get WL traits or relics unless they themselves are the Warlord. Seems like an oversight on GW's part that could be fixed by simply changing it to Imperial Knights Titanic model. Once they get that fixed up though, I'm definitely gonna consider a Knight Atrapos to swap out for my Warden every once in a while in my lists.

tneva82 wrote:

drbored wrote:

However, the Valiant is not just its harpoon. It's not just its Conflagration cannon either. Comparing it to the Castellan, both have the missiles and shoulder cannons and both have the 4 melta guns as well. You say that the harpoon is useless turn one on the Valiant. Well, the melta guns are useless on the Castellan through the entire game if you're playing it right. 4 Melta guns have a higher chance to hit than the harpoon, there being 4 of them after all, and could potentially do much more damage than the harpoon with some decent hits and wounds. Up close and personal, where the Valiant wants to be, you might even get into half-range of those melta guns on your target.
.

If you play it right castellan is moving forward and thus will get into melta right. You think because castellan has long range it has to stay far. Wrong. It dmesn't gain anything by staying far. Thus right play is move forward

Exactly. The Castellan can sit back and blast away, but it doesn't need to. The Valiant MUST get in close to do its job. The Castellan is much more flexible in terms of what it can do.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

drbored wrote:

However, the Valiant is not just its harpoon. It's not just its Conflagration cannon either. Comparing it to the Castellan, both have the missiles and shoulder cannons and both have the 4 melta guns as well. You say that the harpoon is useless turn one on the Valiant. Well, the melta guns are useless on the Castellan through the entire game if you're playing it right. 4 Melta guns have a higher chance to hit than the harpoon, there being 4 of them after all, and could potentially do much more damage than the harpoon with some decent hits and wounds. Up close and personal, where the Valiant wants to be, you might even get into half-range of those melta guns on your target.
.

If you play it right castellan is moving forward and thus will get into melta right. You think because castellan has long range it has to stay far. Wrong. It dmesn't gain anything by staying far. Thus right play is move forward

Exactly. The Castellan can sit back and blast away, but it doesn't need to. The Valiant MUST get in close to do its job. The Castellan is much more flexible in terms of what it can do.

Here's the thing though, the Castellan's weapons lean towards an anti-tank role. Plus, you'll always want to overcharge that plasma decimator in order to get the extra damage against most targets. If you're shooting it at infantry, you're wasting the plasma decimator. The Knights codex has plenty of much cheaper ways to take care of tanks, but the Valiant helps fill the role of anti-infantry with 3d6 auto hits. It also takes care of fliers and pesky eldar shenanigans as well. The Castellan's two weapons combined get 3d6 hits that you then need to roll to hit for. On average, the Castellan may do more /damage/, but the Valiant is going to get more wounds through and kill more troops to clear off objectives. The Valiant also serves as a fantastic anti-charge and anti-flyer model.

But hey, the Castellan is good too, I guess... but you're paying TEN WHOLE MORE POINTS for it over the Valiant. Just fyi.

The thing is, I can take a Crusader with a Battle Cannon and whatever Carapace weapon I want, still spend like 75-100 pts less than a Valiant, and have just as good or better anti-infantry shooting. Plus it accesses better or cheaper Strategems (1CP Rotate Ion Shields rather than 3CP). I am not saying the Valiant is crap. It isn't. It is just woefully overpriced for what it does. If it had a price reduction, I wouldn't even hesitate to take it. Or if it could move faster, was better in CC, or SOMETHING that set it apart from, IMO, better options for Anti-Infantry.

That and the Harpoon definitely looks like it should be a flail.

Anyway, I am done with this argument for now. My Valiant (yup, I bought the one I like less because it is so much cooler looking in concept, plus HARPOON!) will get built and hope for some day where I actually want to use it. I have five Questoris Class Knights to choose from in the meantime and two of each type of Armiger (the Helverins grew on me enough to buy a box of them).

I will say I had my Knight Warden (sporting a 3++ against shooting) smoke a valiant. Everything but a shield breaker bounced off of the ion shield. Got the charge in... Again the flamer didn't do much. Then it got tore a new one with the paragon gauntlet in one round. That gauntlet is MEAN. 8 wounds with each connection is nice.

I really feel like the warden is still very much a viable Knight that can deal with big and small very well.

That same Warden proceeded to stomp around the rest of his guardsmen the rest of the game. That guy swung WELL above his weight class and that hawshroud kept him chugging along when it was injured.

Made me a believer