Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The goon hammer review is up and it looks like my choice to paint my knights as Griffith fours years ago is going to pay dividends.

After reading the Goonhammer review, I see decently strong things but nothing back-breaking like pre-nerf Harlequins was. My biggest concern is whether an army of giant targets that can't hide will last long in the Thunderdome of 9th edition 40k. GW have certainly given it the good college try, as there are lots of durability tricks, but are they enough? I guess we'll find out soon enough, eh?

I think that two big knights and 7 or so Armigers is the way to go. You can get some serious shooting done and throw a Warglaive onto a center objective each turn while making it ridiculously hard to kill.

The Goonhammer review was really thorough, so I've done some theory crafting. I agree that the Knight Oaths are generally going to be Defend the Realm and either Refuse No Challenge or Lay Low the Tyrants. In practice, I anticipate the Honor mechanic won't be very important.

The bottom line is that the Knight mono-faction rules are:

+1 CP per turn (Defend)

either +1 to hit on the first round of melee (Refuse), OR re-roll one hit or wound roll when shooting or fighting (Tyrants)

The Virtuous effects are too difficult to achieve for inconsequential payout, and serve instead as a win-more to close out games. You're already trying to score Hold More and Stranglehold, so Defend the Realm will provide an Honor unless the game's already going South. That Honor will counteract the occasional Troth from Tyrants (fail to kill 2 units per turn) or Refuse (fall back). That being said, becoming Shameful is disastrous as it disables a lot of synergies like Bondsman abilities.

Speaking of, here summarized; Each Knight targets one Armiger within 6", it gains -1D taken and one of the following:

Gallant/Crusader: +1WS/BS

Paladin: rr1s to hit&wound

Warden: counts as 10 for objective

Errant: advance and charge, +1" to both

Knights upgraded with points to be Exalted Court (which you will do for most Knights) can mark two Armigers with Bondsman abilities instead. Preceptors have their own Litany thing going on, but the fact that it triggers on a 3+ really dissuades me.

There's also been significant changes to how the Knight Lance rule refunds Detachment cost. "If the detachment contains at least one Questoris Class model or three Armigers, you get 3CP back, while if you have either three Questoris Class models or 6+ Armigers accompanying at least one TITANIC unit, you get the full 6CP refunded."

All that said, here I am still pursuing my combined AdMech and Knight army.
My army got literally stronger, but it's soured by the knowledge of the opportunity cost. Plus the new Knight Lance rules literally break the army at 1500pts, which was my favourite game size.

I plan to go with the boring Forgemaster Exalted Court, which provides -1 damage while the Knight is wholly within its deployment zone. This is entirely to prevent my lynch-pin unit from dying on turn 1 if I go second. I like the threat of turn 1 charging two Warglaives, but it may be the case that the Paladin's range and more versatile buff are better. I'm also keeping in mind that the next GT will likely reduce starting CP to 6 and instead gain 2 per turn. I use 5, which leaves 1 to reserve the Vanguard to score actions. There's several things I'd like to pick up, but can't.

Surprising that no one has updated the Knights into news and rumors section, after all, there's plenty of reviews available in YouTube. I've done some digging and the new codex has a lot of potential in new edition. Here's my initial list;



So, how does this look like? It's mostly based on the models I own, so perhaps not the most optimal load out. The CP spent on the castellan is absolutely bonkers, but essentially those attacks are meant to deal with tough targets with invulnerable save. As for the durability, taranis have 6+++ against non-mortals, and mechanicus house has more wounds and regeneration. On top of that, castellan has 4++ against ranged attacks, and -1 dmg. That's a mortarion-level toughness..

I'm really disappointed that no knight unit got a -1D. Dreadnoughts get it, Wraith units get it, demons get it... yet only armigers got a -1D and it's conditional. What's the reasoning GW? 24 wounds that melt like an ice cream under the sun are too strong for the current meta?

M.

Quite a few things to unpack.

I am affectionately calling this book

Codex:Armigers haha

I wish I spent as much time and money painting my little guys as i did my bigger knights.

The book has quite a lot of side grades and nerfs to wade through initially which i think put me in a bit of a tilt. (can cover them specifically but we are all probably aware of what they are)

I am still quite keen to have a play about with some of the combos though. I think focusing on the positives is probably the best course of action.

We can play secondaries now! In theory at least. no longer do we pick 2/3 passable ones and 1 that we have no chance of achieving.

I would have liked more defensive buffs but the DZ layered buffs we get might be enough. Against non tau players. And if you are unfortunate enough to find yourself playing tau you'll just have to consolidate yourself with the fact he probably smells of fish and or has no friends since hes playing tau.

Mechanicum again for me, Krast and Raven looking a lot less appealing. And whilst I would have liked a true 6+++ in Taranis (rather than the arbitrary no mortals) I think the extra wounds this will bring might be vital to stop being sniped so will be trying them first.

Our book isn't flashy, other factions just get given stuff. We have to fight for it. But the trade off is hopefully our book survives a complete rewrite balance passes ala admech etc. That alone will be a positive it it comes to pass.

But I am keen to try out some of the synergies and combos. Looks like I will be starting with Taranis (mine are painted as and a faction loyal to my heart)

I think the Castellan is a trap. It seems very slow and hard to maneuver into line of sight of something you want to kill. Perhaps if it was constantly going into Strategic Reserves and coming in with better fire lanes. I think the Taranis combo is cute, but not something I would want to bank on.

Obviously Armigers are pushed, but only if you have some big knights to back them up. I actually really like the Freeblade Lance. The ability to mix and match the Imperalis and Mechanicus offices is fun, and they get some unique stratagems that are -really- good.

The Paladin is suddenly interesting, not because I like the RFBC but the reroll 1s to hit and wound it can give Armigers. Its also very strong in melee like most Questoris knights and provides a solid threat of counter-charge if they push into the middle. I'm just not sure how Knights deal with the strategy of kill the big knights first and the Armigers get a lot less nasty afterward.

One thing that Imperials have over Chaos is the ability to do mortal wounds. I believe there is a relic helm that can turn 6's to wound in melee into mortals equal to the damage of the weapon, and of course there is the Mechanicus stratagem that does the same for ranged. The two ways of increasing your 6s to wound are the Taranis warlord trait (better if you can get to Virtuous) and get to Virtuous with Lay Low the Tyrants Oath. Freeblades can also kill a monster/vehicle/character and spend 1 CP to activate the Virtuous ability for any oath for the rest of the game. I like this ability on a Helverin for the low CP and high rate of D3 firepower, and on an Errant with the relic helm. The Helverin can also benefit from rerolls to wound from a Paladin to increase the odds of rolling 6s.

I think Helverin's also benefit the most from the Helm of the Bastard relic for +1 to wound. The relic also lets you give the same bonus to another Armiger nearby as a Bondsman bonus, which would also be another source of -1 damage. You could combine this on a Helverin unit of 2 that's getting the freeblade trait Hunter of Beasts for +1 to hit monsters/vehicles and +1 damage vs. titanic to really mess something like a Stormsurge up.

For my tenative list, I think I would have a Preceptor and a Paladin in a Freeblade Lance with 2 units of 2 Helverins and three Warglaives. I would hang back and try to shoot things to death while controlling my half of the board and firing a Warglaive per turn into the middle to score stranglehold and possibly Renew the Oaths secondaries. I have found that when I try to rush the opponents they almost universally have the ability to destroy me. This style of hanging back and shooting stuff to death to let me push mid-late game has worked better for me personally.

Can anyone post the Cawls Wrath and Avenger Gatling relic rules?


I was hoping to use IK, but Chaos just seems so much better tbh.

Any use in Helverins, or should I just bite the bullet and find some Warglaives instead.

I believe that Cawl's Wrath is Heavy 2d6, Str 8, AP -4, flat 3 damage, no overcharge. It basically gives you the damage from the standard Plasma Decimator at -1 Str but no risk of mortals.

Endless Fury is Heavy 1d6+12, Str 6, AP -3, Damage flat 2. It gives you 1d6 extra shots and a point of AP.

I believe that Helverin's are very good at shooting, and still count as 5 models+ObSec for holding objectives. They just aren't as good at taking an objective off of an enemy as the Warglaive.

Edit: review video for further information. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UEHnjtmjaA&t=8503s

bmsattler wrote:
I think that two big knights and 7 or so Armigers is the way to go. You can get some serious shooting done and throw a Warglaive onto a center objective each turn while making it ridiculously hard to kill.

You can go 2-7 if you bring 2 Questoris instead of a Tyrant. Tight squeezing here.
Both bondsmanned, so you can buff 4 armigers. Bring Dominius helm thing, and you can buff 1 extra armiger per turn.

I believe that the Dominatus Helm also permanently upgrades the Armiger with the Bondsman ability until someone puts a different Bond on it. So you can put it on an Armiger and then fire and forget without having to keep it near the big knight to continually upgrade it each turn.

Really, there are a number of very good relics.

I wonder if house Terryn is still viable, I feel like the Imperial Allegiance is a bit shafted compared to the mechanicus one. Getting up close and personal is a winning proposition in 9th at least and they seem to be capable of doing that

A uhhh friend of mine has a few lances of house Terryn painted knights and she wants to field them as they are (plus a fully painted and moded King Tybalt

Griffith seems like the go-to on the Imperialis side of things; not really sure on the Mechanicus side. Raven seems good, but Taranis and Krast both seem decent also. My Knights are painted in custom colors so I can run them as whatever I want to!

This is a new Codex list that I am contemplating. It is based on 2 Errants and 7 Armigers, and uses House Raven to allow for advance, shoot and charge.

++ Super-Heavy Detachment (Imperium - Imperial Knights, 9 CP) 1995 points ++
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Household Choice: Questor Mechanicus, House Raven
Oaths: Defend the Realm, Lay Low the Tyrants

+ Stratagems +
1 CP Knight Baron
2 CP Heirlooms of the Household

+ Lord of War +
Knight Errant [480pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Reaper Chainsword, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Revered Knight; Princeps

Knight Errant [480 pts]: Character, Knight Baron: Ion Bulwark; Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Sanctuary, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Reaper Chainsword; Master of Lore (Wisdom of Nobility)

2x Armiger Helverins, Heirloom: The Bastard’s Helm [310pts]
3x Armiger Warglaives [435pts]
2x Armiger Warglaives [290pts]
+++
Idea: 2x Knight Errants who can affect 4 Warglaives and 1 Errant, given Wisdom of Nobility and Princeps. They are then able to advance & charge and also shoot (due to the household trait). This means that they are fast, allowing them to get good shooting angles and charges, and generally should be active in all phases. Both Errants have a couple of extra wounds from Mechanicus and defensive Relics/Traits, but having two Errants gives redundancy if one is taken out quickly.

One Warglaive is dedicated to performing actions to Renew the Oaths.

2 Helverins hold back objectives and provide fire support with the help of the Bastard’s Helm.

Army starts with 2 Honour Points, so will not get dishonoured immediately even if fails to kill 2 enemy units in round 1.

Key Stratagems: Rotate, Machine Spirit Resurgent, Noble Sacrifice, Martial Prowess, Full Tilt, Thin Their Ranks, Benevolence of the Machine God

Secondaries: Stranglehold, Grind Them Down, Renew the Oaths

Comments?

The more I heard about the new dex, the less I like it. Maybe we should change the name of the thread to 'Dex Baby Knight.

Not the designer team's fault but we have a codex with 4 pages of stratagems when GW is hinting that CPs are going to be cut in half. WTH?!?!?

Also complex =/= good. 4 oaths pick 2 that in reality will be always the same 2. Buffing for armingers that again will end up being always the same 2/3 buffs.

Weapons, and relics got a sidegrade for the most part, but our units keep being very, very vulnerable to enemy fire.

M.

Not to mention one of the main strengths previewed is playing a knight in another army -where synergies between knights and armigers don't apply

In codex there are multiple ways of automatical, turning wound roll to six. And multiple ways of changing dmg of weapon to mortals on wound roll of six..

So is it meaningfull? Spending 4CP to mKe Tyrant deal d6+8 MW?

I think the castellan is made for going in another army to bring the big fire support, it doesn't have any synergies with the rest of the book for some reason anyway ;-)

A question about armiger moirax options:

I'm looking to add one to my army just to up the variety (I'm very jealous of the new chaos versions) what do people think of the various weapons options?

Obviously they just look a bit bad compared to the new chaos gatling cannon and claw but I'm thinking either a Lightning Lock & Claw or Grav & Claw?
Anti light or heavy infantry plus a anti vehicle melee weapon. I know double lightning is the general goto but I feel that a combat weapon is a must if we are sending our armigers in to get objectives.

 Miguelsan wrote:

Not the designer team's fault but we have a codex with 4 pages of stratagems when GW is hinting that CPs are going to be cut in half. WTH?!?!?

M.

Cut in half but doubled in gain rate. How many of the 4 pages are pre-game stratagems?

If your not playing mono knights that's a lot in detatchment costs yet alone extra relic or warlord traits

First 3 turns are the most important

T1 13 - 8

T2 14- 10

T3 15 - 12

They are big reductions

Having 2 on turn 5 when your table wiped is a waste

So I have the book (yay for my FLGS) and have been trying to wrap my head around it.

Initially I was team Mechanicum and thought without access to the 5+++ against mortals and ignore bracket strats imperials is lacking

But the strength of the monarch abilities has me reevaluating things. Being able to give armigers a 4++, 5+++ with -1D is very strong. The book is a weird one. We can super buff armigers but look very vulnerable if our buffing knights get sniped.

I am also agonising over the best split of big guys to little. Currently thinking 2 big 7 little is the strongest. Although a preceptor death ball of 10 warglaive/hellverins sounds amazing but if that preceptor gets tau railgun'd then its GG

 Ideasweasel wrote:
I am also agonising over the best split of big guys to little. Currently thinking 2 big 7 little is the strongest. Although a preceptor death ball of 10 warglaive/hellverins sounds amazing but if that preceptor gets tau railgun'd then its GG

I don't think you can physically fit 10 Armigers into 6'' of the Preceptor, and if you did you'd give up the -1 damage. I think things like the Forge Master for your own -1 damage on a big knight while in your deployment zone and some defensive relics will be important to keep the big knights alive. You will also likely push some of the Armigers up to make them distraction carnifexes. The Helm of Bastards lets a couple of Helverin's or Moirax operate independently while still hitting hard.

I'm curious as to what they will do with the Forge World knights. I've got a Lancer that still moves 14'' right now, and throwing that into the middle of an enemy army then blowing up when I die is tempting.

I also think our new name really should be

Codex: Imperial Armigers


hehe. Yeah The Helm of Bastards on a couple of hellverins is really tempting. I like the Taranis Crusader mortal wound wombo combo but I just know its going to get nerfed or mortal capped in some way. GW always removed my fun. Plus a Crusader just isnt a good enough force multiplier for my armigers. And a Preceptor/Errant is so tempting. If only we got my point reductions across the board. Cause squeezing in 3 big guys I think we lose out on too much ability to play the misson. Is 4 armigers enough?

I think you could go four Armigers and three big knights. Their primary value is board presence. Lets say you go two Warglaives and two Helverins. That gives you two Warglaives to feed into the middle with three big guys backing them up. If you make one of the Questoris a Preceptor and one the a Master of Vox, you could stack buffs from all three onto a center objective bound Warglaive and have enough back up to be fairly confident in killing whatever they send after it. Then you can do it again next turn.
Meanwhile the Helverin's are holding a back objective or maneuvering to kill a threat.

I also like the option of making a pair of Helverin's Freeblades with the Hunters of Beasts ability to give them +1 to hit vehicles/monsters. The Helm of Bastards already precludes them from getting the best buffs from Bondsman, so you may as well lean into their killing potential.

3 and 4 would be ideal if you can make it work

That's my usual loadout. Not sure if new points will keep it under 2000pts though.

M.

I have a single questoris knight painted for my Sisters that I can now use again as a Freeblade. Does a Freeblade in this instance (in a heavy aux detachment) get the oath benefit of either imperium (so the move stuff) or mechanicus (extra wounds and healing)? I haven't been able to find a definitive answer in the various reviews.

Without having access to the Codex until this weekend, I believe that Freeblades lose the Imperialis/Mechanicus oath. The good news is that is the only thing they lose.

bmsattler wrote:
Without having access to the Codex until this weekend, I believe that Freeblades lose the Imperialis/Mechanicus oath. The good news is that is the only thing they lose.

Thats not terrible because only the Mechanicus one is reasonably good anyways. Who thinks wound regen is remotely comparable to a mere +1" to charge?