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Vilehydra wrote: People are acting like marines are going to have infinite CP. Marines have a whole bunch of things they're going to want to spend CP on, relics, Fight on Death, Fight Again, standard rerolls, suppression fire, tremor shells, veteran intercessors etc.,
Fire a single lascannon at the levi every turn and then ignore it. Its threat range is small for such an expensive model, and with any terrain it can be mitigated.
The resources aren't limited, and trading a single Lascannon shot for an enemy CP is pretty worth it IMO. This goes double if he has multiple levies, 1 because he won't have many CP to begin with, and 2 because he can only half damage to one levi.
Like geez guys, have some creativity in your tactics. Think outside of flat DPS/Durability for once. Utility is critical in 8th.
Really?
Don't need the Fight stratagems when everything dies to shooting and you have 4+ overwatch with re-rolls.
Veteran Intercessors are a luxury you don't need.
So, 2 CP for chapter Master, 1 per turn for Half damage and if your against a CC threat 1/3 CP for Tremor shells.
8 CP is going to get you far.
you can go to 13 if your feeling spicy but you probably won't need that many in an IH gunline.
You forgot people spending a CP to make it a Character and another to give it a Warlord Trait. That's 2 right off the bat before the game even starts.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Vilehydra wrote: People are acting like marines are going to have infinite CP. Marines have a whole bunch of things they're going to want to spend CP on, relics, Fight on Death, Fight Again, standard rerolls, suppression fire, tremor shells, veteran intercessors etc.,
Fire a single lascannon at the levi every turn and then ignore it. Its threat range is small for such an expensive model, and with any terrain it can be mitigated.
The resources aren't limited, and trading a single Lascannon shot for an enemy CP is pretty worth it IMO. This goes double if he has multiple levies, 1 because he won't have many CP to begin with, and 2 because he can only half damage to one levi.
Like geez guys, have some creativity in your tactics. Think outside of flat DPS/Durability for once. Utility is critical in 8th.
Really?
Don't need the Fight stratagems when everything dies to shooting and you have 4+ overwatch with re-rolls.
Veteran Intercessors are a luxury you don't need.
So, 2 CP for chapter Master, 1 per turn for Half damage and if your against a CC threat 1/3 CP for Tremor shells.
8 CP is going to get you far.
you can go to 13 if your feeling spicy but you probably won't need that many in an IH gunline.
You forgot people spending a CP to make it a Character and another to give it a Warlord Trait. That's 2 right off the bat before the game even starts.
I think most of that is a trap, its nice to look at and think about but ultimately not worth the CP.
The leviathan has been appearing all over all marine armies, both loyal and chaos, while comparable units like predators, contemptors, redemptors, forge fiends, defilers and the like see next to no play.
Isn't that already an obvious sign that something is seriously wrong in terms of internal balance here, IH supplement or not?
I'm fairly sure that GW has shot themselves in the foot here, trying to buff stuff like the redemptor dreadnought through stratagems, relics and doctrine, but by doing so accidentally buffing the leviathan even more.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Jidmah wrote: The leviathan has been appearing all over all marine armies, both loyal and chaos, while comparable units like predators, contemptors, redemptors, forge fiends, defilers and the like see next to no play.
Isn't that already an obvious sign that something is seriously wrong in terms of internal balance here, IH supplement or not?
I'm fairly sure that GW has shot themselves in the foot here, trying to buff stuff like the redemptor dreadnought through stratagems, relics and doctrine, but by doing so accidentally buffing the leviathan even more.
That's under the assumption any of those units were worth using in the first place. Can you tell me with a straight face that the Forgefiend is worth its points? The Predator?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Jidmah wrote: The leviathan has been appearing all over all marine armies, both loyal and chaos, while comparable units like predators, contemptors, redemptors, forge fiends, defilers and the like see next to no play.
Isn't that already an obvious sign that something is seriously wrong in terms of internal balance here, IH supplement or not?
I'm fairly sure that GW has shot themselves in the foot here, trying to buff stuff like the redemptor dreadnought through stratagems, relics and doctrine, but by doing so accidentally buffing the leviathan even more.
That's under the assumption any of those units were worth using in the first place. Can you tell me with a straight face that the Forgefiend is worth its points? The Predator?
I agree with Slayer-Fan here. Predators, Forge Fiends, and Defilers are all well overcosted. Vanilla Contemptors are pretty terrible as well. (Relic Contemptors, meanwhile, are great at showing off how terrible Predators are - You get way better DPS *and* durability for barely more points.)
We're also talking about a codex that's fairly new. A ton of Space Marine vehicles have sucked for a long time because they can't benefit from chapter tactics. Different factions might be able to actually benefit now - for example, Ultramarine Land Raiders no longer get shut down by a single ork boy standing in base to base contact, making them significantly less of a liability in any given list.
Jidmah wrote: The leviathan has been appearing all over all marine armies, both loyal and chaos, while comparable units like predators, contemptors, redemptors, forge fiends, defilers and the like see next to no play.
Isn't that already an obvious sign that something is seriously wrong in terms of internal balance here, IH supplement or not?
I'm fairly sure that GW has shot themselves in the foot here, trying to buff stuff like the redemptor dreadnought through stratagems, relics and doctrine, but by doing so accidentally buffing the leviathan even more.
That's under the assumption any of those units were worth using in the first place. Can you tell me with a straight face that the Forgefiend is worth its points? The Predator?
I agree with Slayer-Fan here. Predators, Forge Fiends, and Defilers are all well overcosted. Vanilla Contemptors are pretty terrible as well. (Relic Contemptors, meanwhile, are great at showing off how terrible Predators are - You get way better DPS *and* durability for barely more points.)
We're also talking about a codex that's fairly new. A ton of Space Marine vehicles have sucked for a long time because they can't benefit from chapter tactics. Different factions might be able to actually benefit now - for example, Ultramarine Land Raiders no longer get shut down by a single ork boy standing in base to base contact, making them significantly less of a liability in any given list.
If a Levi is undercosted that doesn't necessarily mean FF are overcosted. FF are toe to toe with Redepmtors in many respects and only lack a bunch of bolter spam in trade for a 5++ and heal.
Lets also not forget that the Stormcannon is a 24" gun.
Jidmah wrote: The leviathan has been appearing all over all marine armies, both loyal and chaos, while comparable units like predators, contemptors, redemptors, forge fiends, defilers and the like see next to no play.
Isn't that already an obvious sign that something is seriously wrong in terms of internal balance here, IH supplement or not?
I'm fairly sure that GW has shot themselves in the foot here, trying to buff stuff like the redemptor dreadnought through stratagems, relics and doctrine, but by doing so accidentally buffing the leviathan even more.
That's under the assumption any of those units were worth using in the first place. Can you tell me with a straight face that the Forgefiend is worth its points? The Predator?
I agree with Slayer-Fan here. Predators, Forge Fiends, and Defilers are all well overcosted. Vanilla Contemptors are pretty terrible as well. (Relic Contemptors, meanwhile, are great at showing off how terrible Predators are - You get way better DPS *and* durability for barely more points.)
We're also talking about a codex that's fairly new. A ton of Space Marine vehicles have sucked for a long time because they can't benefit from chapter tactics. Different factions might be able to actually benefit now - for example, Ultramarine Land Raiders no longer get shut down by a single ork boy standing in base to base contact, making them significantly less of a liability in any given list.
If a Levi is undercosted that doesn't necessarily mean FF are overcosted. FF are toe to toe with Redepmtors in many respects and only lack a bunch of bolter spam in trade for a 5++ and heal.
Lets also not forget that the Stormcannon is a 24" gun.
The ff competition in the csm heavy support slot is the hellforged leviathan which uses the butcher cannon which is a 36 inch range. So not much of a competition.
The ff competition in the csm heavy support slot is the hellforged leviathan which uses the butcher cannon which is a 36 inch range. So not much of a competition.
If you want to escape for half the points, but more than half the damage (with CP spend) then FF does ok. Not great. but ok. More than one obviously drops off a cliff a bit.
Jidmah wrote: The leviathan has been appearing all over all marine armies, both loyal and chaos, while comparable units like predators, contemptors, redemptors, forge fiends, defilers and the like see next to no play.
Isn't that already an obvious sign that something is seriously wrong in terms of internal balance here, IH supplement or not?
I'm fairly sure that GW has shot themselves in the foot here, trying to buff stuff like the redemptor dreadnought through stratagems, relics and doctrine, but by doing so accidentally buffing the leviathan even more.
That's under the assumption any of those units were worth using in the first place. Can you tell me with a straight face that the Forgefiend is worth its points? The Predator?
No it's not.
When you apply a 25% buff to a unit that's performing at 80% to get it 100%, but you can apply that same buff to another unit that's already at 100%, you end up with a problem.
Or in other words, predators, forge fiends and the like need to get where the leviathan is now, and the leviathan needs to be in a place where it's not an auto-take for pretty much every marine army focused on shooting.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Jidmah wrote: The leviathan has been appearing all over all marine armies, both loyal and chaos, while comparable units like predators, contemptors, redemptors, forge fiends, defilers and the like see next to no play.
Isn't that already an obvious sign that something is seriously wrong in terms of internal balance here, IH supplement or not?
I'm fairly sure that GW has shot themselves in the foot here, trying to buff stuff like the redemptor dreadnought through stratagems, relics and doctrine, but by doing so accidentally buffing the leviathan even more.
That's under the assumption any of those units were worth using in the first place. Can you tell me with a straight face that the Forgefiend is worth its points? The Predator?
No it's not.
When you apply a 25% buff to a unit that's performing at 80% to get it 100%, but you can apply that same buff to another unit that's already at 100%, you end up with a problem.
Or in other words, predators, forge fiends and the like need to get where the leviathan is now, and the leviathan needs to be in a place where it's not an auto-take for pretty much every marine army focused on shooting.
Except you dont magically make predators worthwhile just by banning FW like some people suggest all you do is remove worthwhile options from 90% of the codex and force anyone trying to make SM vehicals work both Choas and Loyalists play "Iron Hands and anyone else may aswell just forget they exsist.
Bad balance isn't going to be magical improved by just deleting the only viable options.
Karol wrote: But isn't it how good stuff in 8th ed works in general. Dark Reapers were great, because they could move and fire, could shot stuff outside of LoS, could fire twice with Inari, didn't suffer negative mods and could double dip on CWE stratagems for a long times. Alaitoc flyers are great, because they can stack multiple minus to hit mods. Catellan using armies were stacking the CP gain from cheap IG, with the power of a knight castellan, on top of raven house rules.
The meteor captins of old BA were over buffing one or two dudes with buffs and stratagems etc. chaos soup is the over lap of rules and units from multiple books, to cherry pick the best things etc.
Something that would be winning games in w40k without any overlaping rules and just stock stuff, would have to be borderline undercosted.
Sure, but the difference is that *everything* in the Iron Hands army gets the "five abilities" that Ice_can listed. The thing that makes/made Leviathans above-average was not those five abilities, it was the additional warlord trait ability and dreadnought-exclusive stratagems that it had access to, condensed onto a single powerful model. (Since buffing one leviathan is equivalent to buffing 2-3 regular dreadnoughts, all stratagems used on it are 2-3 times as cost efficient.)
If you think those "five abilities" are too powerful, then you should ban Iron Hands entirely, but they're not the problem here - it's the unit-specific stratagems.
Except the dreadnaught charictor is Ironhands only strategum.
Ironstone relic for -1 damage Iron hands only
Base 6+FNP Iron hands only
5+ overwatch 4+ with strategum Iron hands only
Having any marine unit turn into 2+ bodyguards ironhands only strategum.
Iron hands needed some love as they were laughable bad in codex 1.0 a 16% durability buff on models costed at 130% of their points value with that buff doesn't make a unit work.
But cutting the unit down to 100% of it's point's cost value and then applying a 16% durability buff plus would have been a workable army.
Heck the fnp plus counts as double wounds would have been fair compensation for the terrible 1.0 rules but to throw so many buffs and strategums into exclusively 1 subfaction and then use that to justify changeing units used across multiple codex's let alone subfactions is not improving balance it's throwing it into unachievable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/03 07:49:57
If melle is your only counter that is already broken. Several armies have 0 melee ability. Ironhands aren't particularly weak in melle ether. It probably remains to be seen what the best overall build is going to be. The ones that can make it impossible to charge a levi are going to be the best though.
2x Executioner in a triangle with a levi in the middle and tech marine with ironstone in the gap between the 3 of them. Seems like a pretty obvious build.
There's also a triple redemptor and ivinctor build I've got in my head (which will literally ass woop anything you throw at them in CC while dumping out isane number of shots as well)
Heck even maxing out landspeeders is an insane use of the relic ironstone because as a unit you can spread its benefits around...and if you get a 4++ for moving 12 inches I think dumping out tons of mobile firepower.
It is a deathstar and most of us have been around to remember
1. How much we hated deathstars
2. How to beat deathstars
The Ironstone is particularly bonkers because the current meta strongly favours weapons with flat D2 (or sometimes D3) damage - and those weapons are stopped hard by the Ironstone.
I really would not want to face this in ITC where the IH player will choose secondaries to suit the kill more/can't be killed nature of a deathstar list. In a mission sets where you cannot just choose to be playing a kill points mission with a passing nod to objectives having over half your army bunched up like that does not win you the game.
Karol wrote: But isn't it how good stuff in 8th ed works in general. Dark Reapers were great, because they could move and fire, could shot stuff outside of LoS, could fire twice with Inari, didn't suffer negative mods and could double dip on CWE stratagems for a long times. Alaitoc flyers are great, because they can stack multiple minus to hit mods. Catellan using armies were stacking the CP gain from cheap IG, with the power of a knight castellan, on top of raven house rules.
The meteor captins of old BA were over buffing one or two dudes with buffs and stratagems etc. chaos soup is the over lap of rules and units from multiple books, to cherry pick the best things etc.
Something that would be winning games in w40k without any overlaping rules and just stock stuff, would have to be borderline undercosted.
Sure, but the difference is that *everything* in the Iron Hands army gets the "five abilities" that Ice_can listed. The thing that makes/made Leviathans above-average was not those five abilities, it was the additional warlord trait ability and dreadnought-exclusive stratagems that it had access to, condensed onto a single powerful model. (Since buffing one leviathan is equivalent to buffing 2-3 regular dreadnoughts, all stratagems used on it are 2-3 times as cost efficient.)
If you think those "five abilities" are too powerful, then you should ban Iron Hands entirely, but they're not the problem here - it's the unit-specific stratagems.
Except the dreadnaught charictor is Ironhands only strategum.
Ironstone relic for -1 damage Iron hands only
Base 6+FNP Iron hands only
5+ overwatch 4+ with strategum Iron hands only
Having any marine unit turn into 2+ bodyguards ironhands only strategum.
Iron hands needed some love as they were laughable bad in codex 1.0 a 16% durability buff on models costed at 130% of their points value with that buff doesn't make a unit work.
But cutting the unit down to 100% of it's point's cost value and then applying a 16% durability buff plus would have been a workable army.
Heck the fnp plus counts as double wounds would have been fair compensation for the terrible 1.0 rules but to throw so many buffs and strategums into exclusively 1 subfaction and then use that to justify changeing units used across multiple codex's let alone subfactions is not improving balance it's throwing it into unachievable.
Ice, please go back and read the original replies I was talking about. I had suggested that, in order to balance the Leviathan, you ban it from taking the character stratagem and don't let it halve damage, so that the ironstone can't stack with other damage-reducing abilities. (And if it can't turn into a "charictor", it can't use the bodyguard "strategum" either.) You then started talking about how Iron Hands get "five abilities", namely two of the abilities from their chapter trait, doctrines, and two abilities from their super doctrine.
You forgot the discussion after a couple posts went by, and are arguing against a point that nobody is making.
The Iron Hands Leviathan has been causing a commotion in the 40k community lately. But is it really that bad for the game?
Wyatt over from Jack of Clubs painting did a math breakdown on all the investments that need to be made for that near-unkillable Leviathan. It might have a wounds profile so it can technically die, but with its survivability, you may be better off just blowing the rest of the enemy army away.
That being said, there’s a lot that has to go into that Leviathan to become that scary. So much so that it may not be as bad as we think…
Is the Iron Hands Leviathan Really Bad Enough to Get NERFED?
Yes, it is absolutely hard to kill, no argument there. But the thing is, to have the unit, the investment in points, unit taxes (For the Relic keyword), and CP, is well worth its tanky-ness in-game.
Here is an explanation and math of what the actual investment on a Leviathan is for Iron Hands.
Sure, the Leviathan with storm cannons is 303 points (plus 6-18 for HK missiles) and just to bring it in the list you need a heavy support slot filled because of the Relic tax. Usually, a Thunderfire Cannon, Whirlwind, or Eliminator squad if you want the tax unit to be useful. so 72-92 points. Now the total is up to 375-395. THEN you need Feirros, 110 points– up to 485-505. THEN you need Ironstone Relic, which is CP free if Feirros’ Warlord Trait, but it needs a non-named character you put it on. The Techmarine is cheapest so let’s go with that for the 45 point tax. total is now 530-550.
THEN you need the Might of Heroes power to slap on him from a Psyker to make it T9. Cheapest librarian? 88 points. total is now 618-638… Six Hundred Eighteen points for the Leviathan with its unit taxes! Now we go into resource investment. 1 CP to make him a character, 1 CP to give it a WL trait, then even more CP each turn it gets shot at to halve damage with Duty Eternal.
That’s 3 for a fast game, 6 if we can keep it waddling along brrrrting stuff the whole game. 5cp to 8cp is half to most of a typical Space Marine list’s CP. So we’re looking at a 700 point unit that also eats 5 to 8 cp over the course of a game.
Strong AF? yeah, you betcha. But worth banning? Not unless you also ban Castellans, most other variants of Knights, and Mortarion. Also, be sure to note that it has to use Duty Eternal again in the fight phase. so double CP investment for the game for it being shot at, and charged by smash captains. and it can’t even fall back and shoot. Plus 2-3 squads of chaff can lock it down in combat if even one reaches it though the brutal overwatch.
Is it really that bad when compared to things like Knights, Magnus, or even Mortarion? Is it just an unkillable distraction Carnifex that lets you focus on the rest of your enemy’s army?
The Iron Hands Leviathan has been causing a commotion in the 40k community lately. But is it really that bad for the game?
Wyatt over from Jack of Clubs painting did a math breakdown on all the investments that need to be made for that near-unkillable Leviathan. It might have a wounds profile so it can technically die, but with its survivability, you may be better off just blowing the rest of the enemy army away.
That being said, there’s a lot that has to go into that Leviathan to become that scary. So much so that it may not be as bad as we think…
Is the Iron Hands Leviathan Really Bad Enough to Get NERFED?
Yes, it is absolutely hard to kill, no argument there. But the thing is, to have the unit, the investment in points, unit taxes (For the Relic keyword), and CP, is well worth its tanky-ness in-game.
Here is an explanation and math of what the actual investment on a Leviathan is for Iron Hands.
Sure, the Leviathan with storm cannons is 303 points (plus 6-18 for HK missiles) and just to bring it in the list you need a heavy support slot filled because of the Relic tax. Usually, a Thunderfire Cannon, Whirlwind, or Eliminator squad if you want the tax unit to be useful. so 72-92 points. Now the total is up to 375-395. THEN you need Feirros, 110 points– up to 485-505. THEN you need Ironstone Relic, which is CP free if Feirros’ Warlord Trait, but it needs a non-named character you put it on. The Techmarine is cheapest so let’s go with that for the 45 point tax. total is now 530-550.
THEN you need the Might of Heroes power to slap on him from a Psyker to make it T9. Cheapest librarian? 88 points. total is now 618-638… Six Hundred Eighteen points for the Leviathan with its unit taxes! Now we go into resource investment. 1 CP to make him a character, 1 CP to give it a WL trait, then even more CP each turn it gets shot at to halve damage with Duty Eternal.
That’s 3 for a fast game, 6 if we can keep it waddling along brrrrting stuff the whole game. 5cp to 8cp is half to most of a typical Space Marine list’s CP. So we’re looking at a 700 point unit that also eats 5 to 8 cp over the course of a game.
Strong AF? yeah, you betcha. But worth banning? Not unless you also ban Castellans, most other variants of Knights, and Mortarion. Also, be sure to note that it has to use Duty Eternal again in the fight phase. so double CP investment for the game for it being shot at, and charged by smash captains. and it can’t even fall back and shoot. Plus 2-3 squads of chaff can lock it down in combat if even one reaches it though the brutal overwatch.
Is it really that bad when compared to things like Knights, Magnus, or even Mortarion? Is it just an unkillable distraction Carnifex that lets you focus on the rest of your enemy’s army?
Eh... Spikey Bits is kind of not great. I don't think the Leviathan is as bad as people say, but their argument and logic here is just pretty bad, because they are exaggerating way too much.
Iron Hands armies are going to have Feirros anyways, but Feirros actually does very little for the Leviathan - All he offers is a slightly buffed repair roll, (averaging 1 extra wound per turn,) because his 5+ invuln and 2+ BS buffs are completely unneccesary on the Leviathan.
The Ironstone is also going to be in your army anyways, and most Iron Hands lists rely on parking lots that will already have heavy support choices.
Making it T9 with Might of Heroes isn't something I'd actually considered, but it's also ultimately not very necessary. It makes him even tankier, sure, but at that point it's entirely gratuitous - he's going to survive because lascannons cap out at 2 damage, not because they wound on 4+ instead of 3+.
Even if we say that all those units have to be taken for the leviathan, though, it's not as though you're actually spending 700 points on the leviathan. The Whirlwind/TFire/Whatever will still be shooting. Feirros will still be buffing huge swaths of your army. The Librarian will still be smiting or using whatever other power he took.
The command point investment will still be high, and it's still a hefty chunk of points, but it's not nearly so bad as they're trying to make it out.
You forgot people spending a CP to make it a Character and another to give it a Warlord Trait. That's 2 right off the bat before the game even starts.
For reference, this isn't possible due to the timing of when you nominate your warlord vs when you use the stratagems. If someone's trying to run a 2-WLT levi, politely point out that it's not legal.
The Iron Hands Leviathan has been causing a commotion in the 40k community lately. But is it really that bad for the game?
Wyatt over from Jack of Clubs painting did a math breakdown on all the investments that need to be made for that near-unkillable Leviathan. It might have a wounds profile so it can technically die, but with its survivability, you may be better off just blowing the rest of the enemy army away.
That being said, there’s a lot that has to go into that Leviathan to become that scary. So much so that it may not be as bad as we think…
Is the Iron Hands Leviathan Really Bad Enough to Get NERFED?
Yes, it is absolutely hard to kill, no argument there. But the thing is, to have the unit, the investment in points, unit taxes (For the Relic keyword), and CP, is well worth its tanky-ness in-game.
Here is an explanation and math of what the actual investment on a Leviathan is for Iron Hands.
Sure, the Leviathan with storm cannons is 303 points (plus 6-18 for HK missiles) and just to bring it in the list you need a heavy support slot filled because of the Relic tax. Usually, a Thunderfire Cannon, Whirlwind, or Eliminator squad if you want the tax unit to be useful. so 72-92 points. Now the total is up to 375-395. THEN you need Feirros, 110 points– up to 485-505. THEN you need Ironstone Relic, which is CP free if Feirros’ Warlord Trait, but it needs a non-named character you put it on. The Techmarine is cheapest so let’s go with that for the 45 point tax. total is now 530-550.
THEN you need the Might of Heroes power to slap on him from a Psyker to make it T9. Cheapest librarian? 88 points. total is now 618-638… Six Hundred Eighteen points for the Leviathan with its unit taxes! Now we go into resource investment. 1 CP to make him a character, 1 CP to give it a WL trait, then even more CP each turn it gets shot at to halve damage with Duty Eternal.
That’s 3 for a fast game, 6 if we can keep it waddling along brrrrting stuff the whole game. 5cp to 8cp is half to most of a typical Space Marine list’s CP. So we’re looking at a 700 point unit that also eats 5 to 8 cp over the course of a game.
Strong AF? yeah, you betcha. But worth banning? Not unless you also ban Castellans, most other variants of Knights, and Mortarion. Also, be sure to note that it has to use Duty Eternal again in the fight phase. so double CP investment for the game for it being shot at, and charged by smash captains. and it can’t even fall back and shoot. Plus 2-3 squads of chaff can lock it down in combat if even one reaches it though the brutal overwatch.
Is it really that bad when compared to things like Knights, Magnus, or even Mortarion? Is it just an unkillable distraction Carnifex that lets you focus on the rest of your enemy’s army?
That's such a bad analysis it can probably be dismissed out of hand. Most of those "tax" units they mention are likely to appear in most IH lists anyway, or at least have a decent enough amount of utility that you're not hurting your list by including them. For example, Feirros is pretty much an auto-include in IH lists. He's laughably undercosted. There's likely no need to use Duty Eternal in the fight phase as you're going to be screening it as much as you can - and Space Marines are now pretty good at that with the 12" omni-scrambler ability. The CP investment is only relevant if you're having to redirect those CPs from elsewhere but, as discussed earlier in this thread, there aren't too many SM stratagems you'll definitely want to use over Duty Eternal and the one to make the Leviathan a character. A Librarian is a generally useful unit too and I'm not convinced you really need MoH on the Leviathan every turn. It's a nice bonus but all the other defensive buffs are probably already enough without going to T9 as well. So the Spikey Bits analysis is about up to the same quality as their website in general - not worth the time spent reading it.
The Iron Hands Leviathan has been causing a commotion in the 40k community lately. But is it really that bad for the game?
Wyatt over from Jack of Clubs painting did a math breakdown on all the investments that need to be made for that near-unkillable Leviathan. It might have a wounds profile so it can technically die, but with its survivability, you may be better off just blowing the rest of the enemy army away.
That being said, there’s a lot that has to go into that Leviathan to become that scary. So much so that it may not be as bad as we think…
Is the Iron Hands Leviathan Really Bad Enough to Get NERFED?
Yes, it is absolutely hard to kill, no argument there. But the thing is, to have the unit, the investment in points, unit taxes (For the Relic keyword), and CP, is well worth its tanky-ness in-game.
Here is an explanation and math of what the actual investment on a Leviathan is for Iron Hands.
Sure, the Leviathan with storm cannons is 303 points (plus 6-18 for HK missiles) and just to bring it in the list you need a heavy support slot filled because of the Relic tax. Usually, a Thunderfire Cannon, Whirlwind, or Eliminator squad if you want the tax unit to be useful. so 72-92 points. Now the total is up to 375-395. THEN you need Feirros, 110 points– up to 485-505. THEN you need Ironstone Relic, which is CP free if Feirros’ Warlord Trait, but it needs a non-named character you put it on. The Techmarine is cheapest so let’s go with that for the 45 point tax. total is now 530-550.
THEN you need the Might of Heroes power to slap on him from a Psyker to make it T9. Cheapest librarian? 88 points. total is now 618-638… Six Hundred Eighteen points for the Leviathan with its unit taxes! Now we go into resource investment. 1 CP to make him a character, 1 CP to give it a WL trait, then even more CP each turn it gets shot at to halve damage with Duty Eternal.
That’s 3 for a fast game, 6 if we can keep it waddling along brrrrting stuff the whole game. 5cp to 8cp is half to most of a typical Space Marine list’s CP. So we’re looking at a 700 point unit that also eats 5 to 8 cp over the course of a game.
Strong AF? yeah, you betcha. But worth banning? Not unless you also ban Castellans, most other variants of Knights, and Mortarion. Also, be sure to note that it has to use Duty Eternal again in the fight phase. so double CP investment for the game for it being shot at, and charged by smash captains. and it can’t even fall back and shoot. Plus 2-3 squads of chaff can lock it down in combat if even one reaches it though the brutal overwatch.
Is it really that bad when compared to things like Knights, Magnus, or even Mortarion? Is it just an unkillable distraction Carnifex that lets you focus on the rest of your enemy’s army?
completely failed logic that the internet loves.
-The heavy support 'Tax' is a unit your taking anyway because in the new SM codex Thunderfire cannons are strait up good. Its a 'tax' if you didn't want to take it in the first place and it adds little to your army.
-Feirros, same deal. He does exactly what you want for the army and you would take him in any list anyway because of his 5++ aura and giving a unit BS 2+
-The relic goes on a Chapter Master that you would take anyway because as we learned from Girlyman and AdMech guy, a blanket re-roll hit aura is worth it in a shooting army. again, no real tax to speak off.
-You don't need Might of Heroes at all. half damage and -1 already makes you nigh unkillable.
-Character trait, not needed. Warlord Trait, not needed.
-How on earth is your levi getting charged by multiple chaff units in the middle of an IH gunline and does a smash captain even survive charging a 4+ overwatch Leviathan? (quick math says the captain dies on the charge 2 out of 3 times).
So a unit that was already good and competitive gets re-roll all hits and becomes nigh unkillable by taking units you were going to take anyway and spending 1CP more then you were going to otherwise.
Yeah, sounds kinda broken.
You forgot people spending a CP to make it a Character and another to give it a Warlord Trait. That's 2 right off the bat before the game even starts.
For reference, this isn't possible due to the timing of when you nominate your warlord vs when you use the stratagems. If someone's trying to run a 2-WLT levi, politely point out that it's not legal.
It is actually.
After selected your warlord you use the IH stratagem (March of the Ancients) to make your dread a character and then use the SM stratagem (Hero of the Chapter) to give a character in your army a warlord trait.
You can't give it a second warlord trait through Paragon of Iron but 1 warlord trait is entirely legal and what the article was talking about.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/03 09:02:48
Jidmah wrote: The leviathan has been appearing all over all marine armies, both loyal and chaos, while comparable units like predators, contemptors, redemptors, forge fiends, defilers and the like see next to no play.
Isn't that already an obvious sign that something is seriously wrong in terms of internal balance here, IH supplement or not?
I'm fairly sure that GW has shot themselves in the foot here, trying to buff stuff like the redemptor dreadnought through stratagems, relics and doctrine, but by doing so accidentally buffing the leviathan even more.
That's under the assumption any of those units were worth using in the first place. Can you tell me with a straight face that the Forgefiend is worth its points? The Predator?
No it's not.
When you apply a 25% buff to a unit that's performing at 80% to get it 100%, but you can apply that same buff to another unit that's already at 100%, you end up with a problem.
Or in other words, predators, forge fiends and the like need to get where the leviathan is now, and the leviathan needs to be in a place where it's not an auto-take for pretty much every marine army focused on shooting.
Except you dont magically make predators worthwhile just by banning FW like some people suggest all you do is remove worthwhile options from 90% of the codex and force anyone trying to make SM vehicals work both Choas and Loyalists play "Iron Hands and anyone else may aswell just forget they exsist.
Bad balance isn't going to be magical improved by just deleting the only viable options.
I don't see where my post could even remotely be interpreted to support banning of leviathans. I fully agree with you - but the problem is that the leviathan was already top tournament material in Ultramarine and Death Guard armies, all the buffs from IF might have pushed it way over the top.
No army should be forced to buy multiples of a forgeworld model in order to compete, especially if there are multiple things in the regular codex that should be doing the same job.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
You forgot people spending a CP to make it a Character and another to give it a Warlord Trait. That's 2 right off the bat before the game even starts.
For reference, this isn't possible due to the timing of when you nominate your warlord vs when you use the stratagems. If someone's trying to run a 2-WLT levi, politely point out that it's not legal.
It is actually.
After selected your warlord you use the IH stratagem (March of the Ancients) to make your dread a character and then use the SM stratagem (Hero of the Chapter) to give a character in your army a warlord trait.
You can't give it a second warlord trait through Paragon of Iron but 1 warlord trait is entirely legal and what the article was talking about.
Ah nadgers, I misread his post. There was some buzz around 2-WLT Levis a while back and thought it was being referenced here
-How on earth is your levi getting charged by multiple chaff units in the middle of an IH gunline and does a smash captain even survive charging a 4+ overwatch Leviathan? (quick math says the captain dies on the charge 2 out of 3 times).
The real Smash cappy ignores overwatch. All these other smash cappys are just imitating.
Won't the real Smash cappy please stand up, please stand up.
-How on earth is your levi getting charged by multiple chaff units in the middle of an IH gunline and does a smash captain even survive charging a 4+ overwatch Leviathan? (quick math says the captain dies on the charge 2 out of 3 times).
The real Smash cappy ignores overwatch. All these other smash cappys are just imitating.
Won't the real Smash cappy please stand up, please stand up.
Irrelevant, the real BA smash captain has no chance of killing the levi, not even when fighting twice. Half of his attacks is saved by the levis 4++. His hammer damage is reduced to 1 by iron stone and duty eternal. One or two points of damage is ignored by its 6+ FNP.
Ordana wrote: It is actually.
After selected your warlord you use the IH stratagem (March of the Ancients) to make your dread a character and then use the SM stratagem (Hero of the Chapter) to give a character in your army a warlord trait.
You can't give it a second warlord trait through Paragon of Iron but 1 warlord trait is entirely legal and what the article was talking about.
Naw, you can give it two.
Check this out - you nominate your Warlord by selecting a model from your army after mustering your force. You don't have to select a Character. Select the Leviathan. He isn't yet a character, but that doesn't matter because you don't actually select your trait until immediately before either player begins deploying.
After you nominate, you then can use abilities like March of the Ancients. It's still not immediately before deploying because you have other things you might do, like Hero of the Chapter, Paragon of Iron, the Sgt relic, or Chapter Master. This is all done well before you select a Warlord trait. All you really need to select one is for your Warlord to be a character when you go to generate it. It wasn't when you nominated, but it is now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/03 11:16:23
If this wasn't space marines then people would absolutely be complaining about the Codex instead of FW. Literally every time its not space marines the army gets blamed. Commanders are the problem, not the character rules that protect them. Hive Tyrants are the problem, not the lack of terrain rules. Shining Spears/Dark Reapers are the problem, not the mechanic that lets you take multiple armies without penalty. Eldar Flyers are the problem, not the ability to stack multiple hit multipliers. Castellans are the problem, not the fact that Imperial Soup has access to over half of GW's catalogue. Iron Hands? Nah that's forgeworld's fault.
-How on earth is your levi getting charged by multiple chaff units in the middle of an IH gunline and does a smash captain even survive charging a 4+ overwatch Leviathan? (quick math says the captain dies on the charge 2 out of 3 times).
The real Smash cappy ignores overwatch. All these other smash cappys are just imitating.
Won't the real Smash cappy please stand up, please stand up.
Irrelevant, the real BA smash captain has no chance of killing the levi, not even when fighting twice. Half of his attacks is saved by the levis 4++. His hammer damage is reduced to 1 by iron stone and duty eternal. One or two points of damage is ignored by its 6+ FNP.
Irrelevant irrelevant - the point wasn't to kill it, but silence it.
The question wasn't "how does a smash cappy kill it. It was how does it survive the overwatch.
Well, easy. It ignores it. Either from being BA or RG, for starters.
