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 Ordana wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't think you can use the Invictor with IH strats....?

Its called a Distraction Carnifex.
The Invictor is there to be scary and demand attention away from the actual meat of the list.
It doesn't need the Deadnought stratagems to do that.

You can do that...Or you can just take advantage of its cheapness and have it fill out your powerball. Iron Hands invictor with the autocannon is disgusting. What is it 105 points with the autocannon? It's gains more out of the ironhands abilities than just about anything. It has 4 heavy weapons and 13 cheap AF wounds...

 Ordana wrote:
Its not that you can't score points without killing things (and I'm glad FLG added more secondaries that you can score without killing). Its that you can score just as much by just killing.

CA2018 missions often require you to actively be on the table with units that can claim objectives., which ITC doesn't force enough.

When given the choice between moving units across the board to control varies objectives and sitting in a fort shooting everything its little wonder players chose to sit in their fort and shoot, its a lot easier and safer.

I like the CA missions, because they're more fun and dynamic. I like the ITC missions, because they're rigorous. Variable turns alone...someone that is on the verge of turning the game around getting another turn is lopsided from someone at a different table who did not get that extra turn.

The missions don't make flyers less usable. Either the flyers score directly in ITC by killing or indirectly by keeping you off objectives through killing models. Considering they don't hold objectives you can focus on the ground units to deny them control. 3 CHEs and 3 RWs aren't killing a lot of Boyz anyway. It's not flyers lists you worry about, but something with a ton of strong anti-horde.

I don't really consider it balance or smart play by banking on getting the troops only mission against a knight player.

I personally love the Invictor, that and the Impulsor are what might get me to play marines again.

I haven't read through this entire thread, but this fix goes waaaay too far. You want a balanced Leviathan? Easy. Add two rules:
You can't make a Leviathan a character.
Leviathan's can't benefit from Duty Eternal.

Bingo. The two biggest sources of cheese are gone, and you're left with a unit that's no stronger than anything else the codex can bring.

Waaaghpower wrote:
I haven't read through this entire thread, but this fix goes waaaay too far. You want a balanced Leviathan? Easy. Add two rules:
You can't make a Leviathan a character.
Leviathan's can't benefit from Duty Eternal.

Bingo. The two biggest sources of cheese are gone, and you're left with a unit that's no stronger than anything else the codex can bring.

No other chapter gets over watch on 5+, 6+FNP, move and shoot and an innate reroll 1's on your heavy weapons. While in the -1AP doctorine
That's 5 bonuses

Ultramarines are probably closest with move without the -1 to hit, and fall back and shoot at -2 to hit while in the 0AP bonus doctorine.
Thats 2 mutually exclusive benifits.

That shows the level of bonkers that is Iron Hands.

Duty eternal isn't even that bad it's 1CP per phase the Iron Stone is -1 dmage for everything in 3 inches of a 50mm base for every phase for 1CP

Ice_can wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I haven't read through this entire thread, but this fix goes waaaay too far. You want a balanced Leviathan? Easy. Add two rules:
You can't make a Leviathan a character.
Leviathan's can't benefit from Duty Eternal.

Bingo. The two biggest sources of cheese are gone, and you're left with a unit that's no stronger than anything else the codex can bring.

No other chapter gets over watch on 5+, 6+FNP, move and shoot and an innate reroll 1's on your heavy weapons. While in the -1AP doctorine
That's 5 bonuses

Ultramarines are probably closest with move without the -1 to hit, and fall back and shoot at -2 to hit while in the 0AP bonus doctorine.
Thats 2 mutually exclusive benifits.

That shows the level of bonkers that is Iron Hands.

Duty eternal isn't even that bad it's 1CP per phase the Iron Stone is -1 dmage for everything in 3 inches of a 50mm base for every phase for 1CP

Several problems:
1, you're comparing a faction that was designed to work in Tactical Doctrines. If you want to play "count the bonuses", you'd have to compare a unit built for Rapid Fire or Assault weapons.
Heavy weapon units will get more inherent abilities than non-heavy weapon units for Iron Hands, just like 'tactical' weapon armies get more benefits when being played with Ultramarines.

2, having a lot of abilities is not always better than having fewer, more powerful abilities. In the old codex, Iron Hands only had 6+ fnp, and so despite the fact that their chapter tactics gave them the same number of "abilities" as the other chapters, they were still far worse because 6+ fnp by itself just isn't very good.

3, You're counting up abilities wrong. Ultramarines still give +1 AP in devestator doctrine, which you forgot about. (So, at least three benefits, one of which is mutually exclusive, by your math.)

4, there are many units Iron Hands can take that benefit from "All five abilities!!!". The new Repulsors, for example. Rifelman dreads. Redemptor Dreads. The only thing that made the Leviathan special was the ability to stack several potent abilities into a single source, like how deathstarts worked in 7th edition. Counting the abilities that the whole army gets against the Leviathan isn't actually an argument against the Leviathan, it's an argument against Iron Hands in general.

But isn't it how good stuff in 8th ed works in general. Dark Reapers were great, because they could move and fire, could shot stuff outside of LoS, could fire twice with Inari, didn't suffer negative mods and could double dip on CWE stratagems for a long times. Alaitoc flyers are great, because they can stack multiple minus to hit mods. Catellan using armies were stacking the CP gain from cheap IG, with the power of a knight castellan, on top of raven house rules.
The meteor captins of old BA were over buffing one or two dudes with buffs and stratagems etc. chaos soup is the over lap of rules and units from multiple books, to cherry pick the best things etc.

Something that would be winning games in w40k without any overlaping rules and just stock stuff, would have to be borderline undercosted.

Karol wrote:
But isn't it how good stuff in 8th ed works in general. Dark Reapers were great, because they could move and fire, could shot stuff outside of LoS, could fire twice with Inari, didn't suffer negative mods and could double dip on CWE stratagems for a long times. Alaitoc flyers are great, because they can stack multiple minus to hit mods. Catellan using armies were stacking the CP gain from cheap IG, with the power of a knight castellan, on top of raven house rules.
The meteor captins of old BA were over buffing one or two dudes with buffs and stratagems etc. chaos soup is the over lap of rules and units from multiple books, to cherry pick the best things etc.

Something that would be winning games in w40k without any overlaping rules and just stock stuff, would have to be borderline undercosted.

Sure, but the difference is that *everything* in the Iron Hands army gets the "five abilities" that Ice_can listed. The thing that makes/made Leviathans above-average was not those five abilities, it was the additional warlord trait ability and dreadnought-exclusive stratagems that it had access to, condensed onto a single powerful model. (Since buffing one leviathan is equivalent to buffing 2-3 regular dreadnoughts, all stratagems used on it are 2-3 times as cost efficient.)
If you think those "five abilities" are too powerful, then you should ban Iron Hands entirely, but they're not the problem here - it's the unit-specific stratagems.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I haven't read through this entire thread, but this fix goes waaaay too far. You want a balanced Leviathan? Easy. Add two rules:
You can't make a Leviathan a character.
Leviathan's can't benefit from Duty Eternal.

Bingo. The two biggest sources of cheese are gone, and you're left with a unit that's no stronger than anything else the codex can bring.

No other chapter gets over watch on 5+, 6+FNP, move and shoot and an innate reroll 1's on your heavy weapons. While in the -1AP doctorine
That's 5 bonuses

Ultramarines are probably closest with move without the -1 to hit, and fall back and shoot at -2 to hit while in the 0AP bonus doctorine.
Thats 2 mutually exclusive benifits.

That shows the level of bonkers that is Iron Hands.

Duty eternal isn't even that bad it's 1CP per phase the Iron Stone is -1 dmage for everything in 3 inches of a 50mm base for every phase for 1CP

Several problems:
1, you're comparing a faction that was designed to work in Tactical Doctrines. If you want to play "count the bonuses", you'd have to compare a unit built for Rapid Fire or Assault weapons.
Heavy weapon units will get more inherent abilities than non-heavy weapon units for Iron Hands, just like 'tactical' weapon armies get more benefits when being played with Ultramarines.

2, having a lot of abilities is not always better than having fewer, more powerful abilities. In the old codex, Iron Hands only had 6+ fnp, and so despite the fact that their chapter tactics gave them the same number of "abilities" as the other chapters, they were still far worse because 6+ fnp by itself just isn't very good.

3, You're counting up abilities wrong. Ultramarines still give +1 AP in devestator doctrine, which you forgot about. (So, at least three benefits, one of which is mutually exclusive, by your math.)

4, there are many units Iron Hands can take that benefit from "All five abilities!!!". The new Repulsors, for example. Rifelman dreads. Redemptor Dreads. The only thing that made the Leviathan special was the ability to stack several potent abilities into a single source, like how deathstarts worked in 7th edition. Counting the abilities that the whole army gets against the Leviathan isn't actually an argument against the Leviathan, it's an argument against Iron Hands in general.

Exactly the issue isn't the leviathan it's the IronHands Supliment being about as rediculous an over correction from a trivial buff to all the buffs from 2 other codex's subfactions ontop of your own and here's a super faction bonus thats a 2for1 aswell.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Karol wrote:
But isn't it how good stuff in 8th ed works in general. Dark Reapers were great, because they could move and fire, could shot stuff outside of LoS, could fire twice with Inari, didn't suffer negative mods and could double dip on CWE stratagems for a long times. Alaitoc flyers are great, because they can stack multiple minus to hit mods. Catellan using armies were stacking the CP gain from cheap IG, with the power of a knight castellan, on top of raven house rules.
The meteor captins of old BA were over buffing one or two dudes with buffs and stratagems etc. chaos soup is the over lap of rules and units from multiple books, to cherry pick the best things etc.

Something that would be winning games in w40k without any overlaping rules and just stock stuff, would have to be borderline undercosted.

Sure, but the difference is that *everything* in the Iron Hands army gets the "five abilities" that Ice_can listed. The thing that makes/made Leviathans above-average was not those five abilities, it was the additional warlord trait ability and dreadnought-exclusive stratagems that it had access to, condensed onto a single powerful model. (Since buffing one leviathan is equivalent to buffing 2-3 regular dreadnoughts, all stratagems used on it are 2-3 times as cost efficient.)
If you think those "five abilities" are too powerful, then you should ban Iron Hands entirely, but they're not the problem here - it's the unit-specific stratagems.

the 5 abilities in 1 isn't a problem we are talking about here.
That doesn't mean its not a problem tho. There is no reason why IH should have that much stuff when compared to other sub-factions.
Sure you can say the 6 fnp in itself it not enough and you'd probably be right, but they did not need this much more.

Nobody needed anything more from the Supplements in the first place. They should never have been made.

This is why I keep saying Consolidation and just a little extra goes a long way.

Well it is kind of a problem of how GW writes the rules. In perspective I would say that the new marine codex and the supplments are probably the first real 8th ed books, everything else was GW copy pasting stuff, and trying to put out stuff as fast as they can. not carrying much about balance or quality of rules, but carring a lot about people buy obligatory books and new models.

So in the end game maybe IH are not even OP, but weak, but that doesn't really make someone with an army that gets a new style codex in a year plus, happier. Sometimes if feels as if GW expects the norm to be playing 4-5 of their games, having 2-3 armies for each of those games, to be semi happy with the stuff you have. Trying to have one army seems like a big gamble or just being foolish.

But who knows CA is coming in a few month, maybe GW will fix stuff there right?

Drive a Rhino up to it, and then charge it with something from behind the Rhino and out of LOS from the Leviathan.

Waaaghpower 780878 10587949 wrote:
Sure, but the difference is that *everything* in the Iron Hands army gets the "five abilities" that Ice_can listed. The thing that makes/made Leviathans above-average was not those five abilities, it was the additional warlord trait ability and dreadnought-exclusive stratagems that it had access to, condensed onto a single powerful model. (Since buffing one leviathan is equivalent to buffing 2-3 regular dreadnoughts, all stratagems used on it are 2-3 times as cost efficient.)
If you think those "five abilities" are too powerful, then you should ban Iron Hands entirely, but they're not the problem here - it's the unit-specific stratagems.

But doesn't it only make it worse, if it is not just one unit? There is no balancing for marine armies that don't have doctrines or supplements. Same models, same points costs, but we are practicaly comparing a vigilus renegades or BL to Word Bearers.

Ah and by the way I am not in favour of removing or not letting people play with legal rules. I just think that the idea that things with drasticaly different set of rules should not cost the same points. IMO doctrine should not be free. It should cost points.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Drive a Rhino up to it, and then charge it with something from behind the Rhino and out of LOS from the Leviathan.

If you manage that a rhino survives that long.

 Ordana wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Karol wrote:
But isn't it how good stuff in 8th ed works in general. Dark Reapers were great, because they could move and fire, could shot stuff outside of LoS, could fire twice with Inari, didn't suffer negative mods and could double dip on CWE stratagems for a long times. Alaitoc flyers are great, because they can stack multiple minus to hit mods. Catellan using armies were stacking the CP gain from cheap IG, with the power of a knight castellan, on top of raven house rules.
The meteor captins of old BA were over buffing one or two dudes with buffs and stratagems etc. chaos soup is the over lap of rules and units from multiple books, to cherry pick the best things etc.

Something that would be winning games in w40k without any overlaping rules and just stock stuff, would have to be borderline undercosted.

Sure, but the difference is that *everything* in the Iron Hands army gets the "five abilities" that Ice_can listed. The thing that makes/made Leviathans above-average was not those five abilities, it was the additional warlord trait ability and dreadnought-exclusive stratagems that it had access to, condensed onto a single powerful model. (Since buffing one leviathan is equivalent to buffing 2-3 regular dreadnoughts, all stratagems used on it are 2-3 times as cost efficient.)
If you think those "five abilities" are too powerful, then you should ban Iron Hands entirely, but they're not the problem here - it's the unit-specific stratagems.

the 5 abilities in 1 isn't a problem we are talking about here.
That doesn't mean its not a problem tho. There is no reason why IH should have that much stuff when compared to other sub-factions.
Sure you can say the 6 fnp in itself it not enough and you'd probably be right, but they did not need this much more.

Let's compare other factions, though. Everyone else will always have:
A Chapter trait
A Doctrine
A faction-specific Doctrine bonus

Iron Hands happen to get two bonuses from our Doctrine, but either half of our Doctrine bonus is notable in that, unlike other factions, our bonuses give us abilities for free that could be acquired elsewhere, instead of giving us unique abilities that nobody else gets. For example, while there are several ways to move and shoot Heavy Weapons without a penalty, (either by having inherent abilities on a unit, or by using a stratagem,) nobody else has the ability to move and shoot any weapon while counting as stationary, nobody else has a way to give +1 Damage to melee weapons, and while there are sources of +1 to hit and even a couple situational +1 to wound abilities, these can stack with Raven Guard, while Iron Hands abilities cannot stack with similar ones.

The largest benefit that Iron Hands provide is the ability to play a strong army without the need for complicated aura bubbles or careful consideration of movement. We only need to be concerned with two main auras - Lieutenants and the Ironstone, instead of three or four, and our most important weapons can move freely without worrying about becoming less effective. It's a plug-and-play army with a skill floor that is much lower than other factions. Nearly all of our abilities simply make it easy to play without having to make complicated tactical choices or worry about placement as much as other factions. I

Karol wrote:

Waaaghpower 780878 10587949 wrote:
Sure, but the difference is that *everything* in the Iron Hands army gets the "five abilities" that Ice_can listed. The thing that makes/made Leviathans above-average was not those five abilities, it was the additional warlord trait ability and dreadnought-exclusive stratagems that it had access to, condensed onto a single powerful model. (Since buffing one leviathan is equivalent to buffing 2-3 regular dreadnoughts, all stratagems used on it are 2-3 times as cost efficient.)
If you think those "five abilities" are too powerful, then you should ban Iron Hands entirely, but they're not the problem here - it's the unit-specific stratagems.

But doesn't it only make it worse, if it is not just one unit? There is no balancing for marine armies that don't have doctrines or supplements. Same models, same points costs, but we are practicaly comparing a vigilus renegades or BL to Word Bearers.

It's worse then that imo.
Atleast WB got access to the new stuff and shares the same cost.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Drive a Rhino up to it, and then charge it with something from behind the Rhino and out of LOS from the Leviathan.

If you manage that a rhino survives that long.

If they're shooting at Rhinos I think they might have target priority issues.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Drive a Rhino up to it, and then charge it with something from behind the Rhino and out of LOS from the Leviathan.

Rhino doesn't block LoS to any model you can see under, over or through the tracks.
Enjoy 5+ overwatch rerolling 1's or if they spent some CP 4+ overwatch.
I think the 4+ overwatch is for any unit aswell, because GW does GW

 Insectum7 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Drive a Rhino up to it, and then charge it with something from behind the Rhino and out of LOS from the Leviathan.

If you manage that a rhino survives that long.

If they're shooting at Rhinos I think they might have target priority issues.

?!?
So you wouldn't stop a berzerker Bus that shuts down your whole shtick?
Colour me in Black white circles and put me 300 meters away.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Karol wrote:
But isn't it how good stuff in 8th ed works in general. Dark Reapers were great, because they could move and fire, could shot stuff outside of LoS, could fire twice with Inari, didn't suffer negative mods and could double dip on CWE stratagems for a long times. Alaitoc flyers are great, because they can stack multiple minus to hit mods. Catellan using armies were stacking the CP gain from cheap IG, with the power of a knight castellan, on top of raven house rules.
The meteor captins of old BA were over buffing one or two dudes with buffs and stratagems etc. chaos soup is the over lap of rules and units from multiple books, to cherry pick the best things etc.

Something that would be winning games in w40k without any overlaping rules and just stock stuff, would have to be borderline undercosted.

Sure, but the difference is that *everything* in the Iron Hands army gets the "five abilities" that Ice_can listed. The thing that makes/made Leviathans above-average was not those five abilities, it was the additional warlord trait ability and dreadnought-exclusive stratagems that it had access to, condensed onto a single powerful model. (Since buffing one leviathan is equivalent to buffing 2-3 regular dreadnoughts, all stratagems used on it are 2-3 times as cost efficient.)
If you think those "five abilities" are too powerful, then you should ban Iron Hands entirely, but they're not the problem here - it's the unit-specific stratagems.

the 5 abilities in 1 isn't a problem we are talking about here.
That doesn't mean its not a problem tho. There is no reason why IH should have that much stuff when compared to other sub-factions.
Sure you can say the 6 fnp in itself it not enough and you'd probably be right, but they did not need this much more.

Let's compare other factions, though. Everyone else will always have:
A Chapter trait
A Doctrine
A faction-specific Doctrine bonus

Iron Hands happen to get two bonuses from our Doctrine, but either half of our Doctrine bonus is notable in that, unlike other factions, our bonuses give us abilities for free that could be acquired elsewhere, instead of giving us unique abilities that nobody else gets. For example, while there are several ways to move and shoot Heavy Weapons without a penalty, (either by having inherent abilities on a unit, or by using a stratagem,) nobody else has the ability to move and shoot any weapon while counting as stationary, nobody else has a way to give +1 Damage to melee weapons, and while there are sources of +1 to hit and even a couple situational +1 to wound abilities, these can stack with Raven Guard, while Iron Hands abilities cannot stack with similar ones.

The largest benefit that Iron Hands provide is the ability to play a strong army without the need for complicated aura bubbles or careful consideration of movement. We only need to be concerned with two main auras - Lieutenants and the Ironstone, instead of three or four, and our most important weapons can move freely without worrying about becoming less effective. It's a plug-and-play army with a skill floor that is much lower than other factions. Nearly all of our abilities simply make it easy to play without having to make complicated tactical choices or worry about placement as much as other factions. I

Right, since you came from the future and know that all books are going to get a complete SM style makeover, could you tell me tomorrows lottery numbers?
Also, is the game going to gak for anyone not a SM for the next months/years while they wait for their book or are they going to give these extra things to all armies in the upcoming CA.
That would be nice....

Sorry that I don't share your optimism in GW's future codex consistency.

 Ordana wrote:
Right, since you came from the future and know that all books are going to get a complete SM style makeover, could you tell me tomorrows lottery numbers?
Also, is the game going to gak for anyone not a SM for the next months/years while they wait for their book or are they going to give these extra things to all armies in the upcoming CA.
That would be nice....

Sorry that I don't share your optimism in GW's future codex consistency.

I was referring to other Space Marine factions. Obviously, other factions don't have *chapter traits* or doctrines, because those are space-marine specific abilities and terminology.

Similar to what I said about iron hands abilities, if your issue is with Space Marines in general, then banning the Leviathan isn't really going to solve anything.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Drive a Rhino up to it, and then charge it with something from behind the Rhino and out of LOS from the Leviathan.

If you manage that a rhino survives that long.

If they're shooting at Rhinos I think they might have target priority issues.

- Present solution to problem
- Shoot solution to problem so the problem can no longer get solved
- This indicates target priority issue for some reason

Excuse me?

Ice_can wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Drive a Rhino up to it, and then charge it with something from behind the Rhino and out of LOS from the Leviathan.

Rhino doesn't block LoS to any model you can see under, over or through the tracks.
Enjoy 5+ overwatch rerolling 1's or if they spent some CP 4+ overwatch.
I think the 4+ overwatch is for any unit aswell, because GW does GW

I've never met anyone who plays that you can see under a Rhinos tracks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Continuity wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Drive a Rhino up to it, and then charge it with something from behind the Rhino and out of LOS from the Leviathan.

If you manage that a rhino survives that long.

If they're shooting at Rhinos I think they might have target priority issues.

- Present solution to problem
- Shoot solution to problem so the problem can no longer get solved
- This indicates target priority issue for some reason

Excuse me?

Go ahead, shoot the Rhino. That's firepower that's not being applied to numerous other things. If I'm making the enemy Leviathan shoot at Rhinos I think I'm doing ok.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Right, since you came from the future and know that all books are going to get a complete SM style makeover, could you tell me tomorrows lottery numbers?
Also, is the game going to gak for anyone not a SM for the next months/years while they wait for their book or are they going to give these extra things to all armies in the upcoming CA.
That would be nice....

Sorry that I don't share your optimism in GW's future codex consistency.

I was referring to other Space Marine factions. Obviously, other factions don't have *chapter traits* or doctrines, because those are space-marine specific abilities and terminology.

Similar to what I said about iron hands abilities, if your issue is with Space Marines in general, then banning the Leviathan isn't really going to solve anything.

The Chapter trait for IH's is 3 separate other 'chapter traits'.
6+ fnp
5+ overwatch
double wounds on damage table

That's a problem.
Yes I consider the other SM's a problematic example of power creep
IH's are just the most obvious and clear example.

 Ordana wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Right, since you came from the future and know that all books are going to get a complete SM style makeover, could you tell me tomorrows lottery numbers?
Also, is the game going to gak for anyone not a SM for the next months/years while they wait for their book or are they going to give these extra things to all armies in the upcoming CA.
That would be nice....

Sorry that I don't share your optimism in GW's future codex consistency.

I was referring to other Space Marine factions. Obviously, other factions don't have *chapter traits* or doctrines, because those are space-marine specific abilities and terminology.

Similar to what I said about iron hands abilities, if your issue is with Space Marines in general, then banning the Leviathan isn't really going to solve anything.

The Chapter trait for IH's is 3 separate other 'chapter traits'.
6+ fnp
5+ overwatch
double wounds on damage table

That's a problem.
Yes I consider the other SM's a problematic example of power creep
IH's are just the most obvious and clear example.

This is subjective, of course, but I don't think those three abilities are any stronger than the combination of abilities that other SM factions can offer. It's our ability to stack stratagems that make Iron Hands overpowered, not our baseline.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Drive a Rhino up to it, and then charge it with something from behind the Rhino and out of LOS from the Leviathan.

Rhino doesn't block LoS to any model you can see under, over or through the tracks.
Enjoy 5+ overwatch rerolling 1's or if they spent some CP 4+ overwatch.
I think the 4+ overwatch is for any unit aswell, because GW does GW

I've never met anyone who plays that you can see under a Rhinos tracks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Continuity wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Drive a Rhino up to it, and then charge it with something from behind the Rhino and out of LOS from the Leviathan.

If you manage that a rhino survives that long.

If they're shooting at Rhinos I think they might have target priority issues.

- Present solution to problem
- Shoot solution to problem so the problem can no longer get solved
- This indicates target priority issue for some reason

Excuse me?

Go ahead, shoot the Rhino. That's firepower that's not being applied to numerous other things. If I'm making the enemy Leviathan shoot at Rhinos I think I'm doing ok.

Discussing things like this in a vacuum is not productive because I can easily just say I will charge a single scout up to your rhino so your rhino can't charge my levianthan, and then we can go back and forth until the end of the world.

But to continue the discussion, my point is that in this hypothetical scenario taking out the rhino is absolutely the right choice because the leviathan is effectively immortal so its only weakness is CC, therefore removing any potential to tag it in CC is the right move.

Tagging it is absolutely the right move, just maybe not with a rhino, Shrike for instance have the potential to babysit an enemy levi for the entire game if he so chooses.

People are acting like marines are going to have infinite CP. Marines have a whole bunch of things they're going to want to spend CP on, relics, Fight on Death, Fight Again, standard rerolls, suppression fire, tremor shells, veteran intercessors etc.,

Fire a single lascannon at the levi every turn and then ignore it. Its threat range is small for such an expensive model, and with any terrain it can be mitigated.

The resources aren't limited, and trading a single Lascannon shot for an enemy CP is pretty worth it IMO. This goes double if he has multiple levies, 1 because he won't have many CP to begin with, and 2 because he can only half damage to one levi.

Like geez guys, have some creativity in your tactics. Think outside of flat DPS/Durability for once. Utility is critical in 8th.

My main point was that the IH Leviathan still has a big foil, and it's a brutal one. Unlike Knights (or Ultramarines) who can walk away and still shoot.

Vilehydra wrote:
People are acting like marines are going to have infinite CP. Marines have a whole bunch of things they're going to want to spend CP on, relics, Fight on Death, Fight Again, standard rerolls, suppression fire, tremor shells, veteran intercessors etc.,

Fire a single lascannon at the levi every turn and then ignore it. Its threat range is small for such an expensive model, and with any terrain it can be mitigated.

The resources aren't limited, and trading a single Lascannon shot for an enemy CP is pretty worth it IMO. This goes double if he has multiple levies, 1 because he won't have many CP to begin with, and 2 because he can only half damage to one levi.

Like geez guys, have some creativity in your tactics. Think outside of flat DPS/Durability for once. Utility is critical in 8th.

Really?
Don't need the Fight stratagems when everything dies to shooting and you have 4+ overwatch with re-rolls.
Veteran Intercessors are a luxury you don't need.
So, 2 CP for chapter Master, 1 per turn for Half damage and if your against a CC threat 1/3 CP for Tremor shells.

8 CP is going to get you far.
you can go to 13 if your feeling spicy but you probably won't need that many in an IH gunline.