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topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Please, no. Please don't roll both into the same codex. Can you imagine the cost of the codexes? A normal codex is about 25 cents per page, if we go off a 40$ codex about 150 pages.

Now lets do the SM Codex, with FW rolled in. Guessing about 200 pages? Gods I don't even want to think about the Guard codex. Talk about bloat, that's 300 pages. Now if we are talking hard cover codex, expect Codexes to start costing 80-100 dollars.

I'd glady pay double/triple the price to have a consolidated marines codex.

I'd pay triple to have a useful Nids codex...

At least you have a functional codex.....

**Laughes in Dreadknight**

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Please, no. Please don't roll both into the same codex. Can you imagine the cost of the codexes? A normal codex is about 25 cents per page, if we go off a 40$ codex about 150 pages.

Now lets do the SM Codex, with FW rolled in. Guessing about 200 pages? Gods I don't even want to think about the Guard codex. Talk about bloat, that's 300 pages. Now if we are talking hard cover codex, expect Codexes to start costing 80-100 dollars.

I'd glady pay double/triple the price to have a consolidated marines codex.

I'd pay triple to have a useful Nids codex...

Nids are probably the army I have played most this edition. I love how they have so many different ways to play. Comparing them to ironhands is a practical joke though.

Lets just see.

Levithan gets 6+++ if they are within 6" of a synapse creature
Ironhands get 6+++ unconditionally, 5+ overwatch, double wounds for degrading profiles, move and shoot heavies with no penalty with reroll 1's....

Like seriously...

The main issue is trickle down codexs - with a new codex being released every few months with a noticeable power creep we will never have a balanced game.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Please, no. Please don't roll both into the same codex. Can you imagine the cost of the codexes? A normal codex is about 25 cents per page, if we go off a 40$ codex about 150 pages.

Now lets do the SM Codex, with FW rolled in. Guessing about 200 pages? Gods I don't even want to think about the Guard codex. Talk about bloat, that's 300 pages. Now if we are talking hard cover codex, expect Codexes to start costing 80-100 dollars.

I'd glady pay double/triple the price to have a consolidated marines codex.

As I explained though, it doesn't need to be double the price if we go with the layout I suggested.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Please, no. Please don't roll both into the same codex. Can you imagine the cost of the codexes? A normal codex is about 25 cents per page, if we go off a 40$ codex about 150 pages.

Now lets do the SM Codex, with FW rolled in. Guessing about 200 pages? Gods I don't even want to think about the Guard codex. Talk about bloat, that's 300 pages. Now if we are talking hard cover codex, expect Codexes to start costing 80-100 dollars.

I'd glady pay double/triple the price to have a consolidated marines codex.

As I explained though, it doesn't need to be double the price if we go with the layout I suggested.

I'm open to whatever codex layout makes things easier for us and provides correct balance updates for a whole faction at once.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Please, no. Please don't roll both into the same codex. Can you imagine the cost of the codexes? A normal codex is about 25 cents per page, if we go off a 40$ codex about 150 pages.

Now lets do the SM Codex, with FW rolled in. Guessing about 200 pages? Gods I don't even want to think about the Guard codex. Talk about bloat, that's 300 pages. Now if we are talking hard cover codex, expect Codexes to start costing 80-100 dollars.

I'd glady pay double/triple the price to have a consolidated marines codex.

As I explained though, it doesn't need to be double the price if we go with the layout I suggested.

I'm open to whatever codex layout makes things easier for us and provides correct balance updates for a whole faction at once.

It's pretty easy. As I explained before:
. 3-4 unique unit entries to show just the slight deviations a Chapter might do
. 3 or so unique Relics for the Chapter/Successors
. 3 unique Strats
. Consolidation of different unit entries, and getting rid of Special Characters that don't serve any purpose like Asmodai, Corbulo, Tellion (who should really just be a generic entry), etc.

Mr.Church13 wrote:
Guys. The solution is obviously not to ban FW, but to bring back comp scores.

That’s the real solution.

The wildly subjective score subject to the whims of each TO?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
If GW considered FW when creating strategems this wouldnt be an issue. They simply dont and this has been shown over and over again. The half wounds strat is no issue on a redemptor or ven dread. Maybe strats, relics and WTs etc should only be allowed to codex entries. This way you can still bring your FW toys, but they don't benefit from strats and relics etc.

Again, tell me why my spined beast of tzeentch shouldn't get warp surge? Does it single handedly wreck your game?

Nope, the issue is this one combination at present. Blanket banning or restricting underpowered units to tackle 1 problem entry is burying your head in the sand and ignorant at best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually I think the answer is to roll FW into the codex at last. Irrespective of which webpage it's bought from etc.

Honestly, I don't even know or care what the spined beast is. If its a reasonable datasheet it doesnt need strats. This thread is about the darasheets that are severely affected by codex strats, not those that aren't.

Leviarhan, half damage, iron stone....this is the topic

So bad units just need to he compensates by Strats? You're not making any sense. You didn't in the first place though.

Sometimes I wonder how you function in the real world. Pretty sure it's not me not making sense.

GW seems to be more then willing to accept a few options becoming really bad. Just like they seem to be okey with stuff being very good for months, or longer. So either they don't really care what they rule updates do with the game or they know and expect people to adjust, am not just sure how they want people to adjust.

Karol wrote:
GW seems to be more then willing to accept a few options becoming really bad. Just like they seem to be okey with stuff being very good for months, or longer. So either they don't really care what they rule updates do with the game or they know and expect people to adjust, am not just sure how they want people to adjust.

That's pretty much how they've always been. They've had units that were garbage or too strong go multiple editions without fixing, or even making problems worse. Historically they haven't been too bothered to act particularly quickly on balance issues.

Well all SM are busted, because of that full reroll on hits and reroll 1 to wound. You can make every unit good with this buffs, IR just get extra survivable that make the things even worst. 300 pts model with this rules and that kind of damage should not exist in the first place.

 Amishprn86 wrote:


For first part, unless its against Tau, and for the 2nd part, Non-ITC missions dont have a lot of kill objectives and has more holding objectives, 300 Orks in all 10mans will win vs 7 CWE flyers, b.c they can hold objectives long enough to matter and never needing to kill 1 flyer.

ITC is 70% "Who can kill better" where GW missions are not.

if (models > numberOfShots) { print "I win!"; }

See you're just swinging the pendulum to whatever you think is appropriate for the game or its against lists you don't like playing or adapting to. It's not hard to swamp the table with scores of models against elite armies geared against big models.

The assertion that an army can paper a rock better with GW missions doesn't make GW missions more or less balanced.

Hold
Hold More
Kill (occasionally)
Bonus

Recon
Behind Enemy Lines
Engineers
Ground Control
King of the Hill

That means on a 6 turn game Orks can score up to 12 on secondaries, up to 12 on holding objectives, up to 6 on the bonus. That's 30 points out of 42 without (theoretically) killing anything.

Marin wrote:
Well all SM are busted, because of that full reroll on hits and reroll 1 to wound. You can make every unit good with this buffs, IR just get extra survivable that make the things even worst. 300 pts model with this rules and that kind of damage should not exist in the first place.

We had the re-rolls before the new codex. Are you honestly saying they were busted prior to the new codex?
The Leviathan hasn't changed IIRC.

I know this will piss off the purists and the librosexuals, but can we just please go fully digital codexes now?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:


For first part, unless its against Tau, and for the 2nd part, Non-ITC missions dont have a lot of kill objectives and has more holding objectives, 300 Orks in all 10mans will win vs 7 CWE flyers, b.c they can hold objectives long enough to matter and never needing to kill 1 flyer.

ITC is 70% "Who can kill better" where GW missions are not.

if (models > numberOfShots) { print "I win!"; }

See you're just swinging the pendulum to whatever you think is appropriate for the game or its against lists you don't like playing or adapting to. It's not hard to swamp the table with scores of models against elite armies geared against big models.

The assertion that an army can paper a rock better with GW missions doesn't make GW missions more or less balanced.

Hold
Hold More
Kill (occasionally)
Bonus

Recon
Behind Enemy Lines
Engineers
Ground Control
King of the Hill

That means on a 6 turn game Orks can score up to 12 on secondaries, up to 12 on holding objectives, up to 6 on the bonus. That's 30 points out of 42 without (theoretically) killing anything.

Its not that you can't score points without killing things (and I'm glad FLG added more secondaries that you can score without killing). Its that you can score just as much by just killing.

CA2018 missions often require you to actively be on the table with units that can claim objectives., which ITC doesn't force enough.

When given the choice between moving units across the board to control varies objectives and sitting in a fort shooting everything its little wonder players chose to sit in their fort and shoot, its a lot easier and safer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Please, no. Please don't roll both into the same codex. Can you imagine the cost of the codexes? A normal codex is about 25 cents per page, if we go off a 40$ codex about 150 pages.

Now lets do the SM Codex, with FW rolled in. Guessing about 200 pages? Gods I don't even want to think about the Guard codex. Talk about bloat, that's 300 pages. Now if we are talking hard cover codex, expect Codexes to start costing 80-100 dollars.

I'd glady pay double/triple the price to have a consolidated marines codex.

I'd pay triple to have a useful Nids codex...

Nids are probably the army I have played most this edition. I love how they have so many different ways to play. Comparing them to ironhands is a practical joke though.

Lets just see.

Levithan gets 6+++ if they are within 6" of a synapse creature
Ironhands get 6+++ unconditionally, 5+ overwatch, double wounds for degrading profiles, move and shoot heavies with no penalty with reroll 1's....

Like seriously...

The main issue is trickle down codexs - with a new codex being released every few months with a noticeable power creep we will never have a balanced game.

I don't even blame this to codex creep.
They literally gave 4 full sub-faction rules to a single sub-faction and no one in the design team went 'hey, that sounds like a bad idea'.
Just like any gamer (Doesn't even have to be warhammer) could have told them that -1 to damage when the max damage is 6 is probably pretty damn good, and might be broken.
Or halving damage taken.
or...

I don't understand how a designer makes a codex like this and doesn't wonder 'is this to much?".

dude most people think you actually have to try broken rules to know they are broken.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

You're cool, and I always enjoy your posts. Don't take this personally.

I know this will piss off the purists and the librosexuals, but can we just please go fully digital codexes now?

You're dead to me.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
dude most people think you actually have to try broken rules to know they are broken.

You're conflating "Not satisfied that a rant was a conclusive argument" with "Only results can be conclusive arguments".

Everyone reasonable knew that -1 damage aura relic in a game where 2 damage and d3 weapons are extremely common is very unbalanced at first glance. Just like when everyone looked at the iron hands tactic.

Well take more d6.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Everyone reasonable knew that -1 damage aura relic in a game where 2 damage and d3 weapons are extremely common is very unbalanced at first glance. Just like when everyone looked at the iron hands tactic.

If everyone agreed, you wouldn't be arguing.

If you're arguing, claiming everyone reasonable agrees means you're claiming who you're arguing with is unreasonable. That is, at best, bad form (but much more likely a rules violation).

These aren't "mental gymnastics". They're common human decency.

Bharring wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

You're cool, and I always enjoy your posts. Don't take this personally.

I know this will piss off the purists and the librosexuals, but can we just please go fully digital codexes now?

You're dead to me.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
dude most people think you actually have to try broken rules to know they are broken.

You're conflating "Not satisfied that a rant was a conclusive argument" with "Only results can be conclusive arguments".

But seriously, we can still sell paper copys, PAPER FOR THE PAPER GOD!!!! But in terms of easily updated and constantly up to date rules, a full digital codex. Right now their digital deluxe editions are not being updated, because they are just scanned PDFs. I want a fully digital, always online, PAYWALLED, Codex that I have to pay a yearly sub for, that makes it so for the love of PEDRO JESUS I don't have to carry around 40 books,

Wait, people are crying over a Levi dread with buffs and character keyword?

Didn't realise a 14W model couldn't be targeted with my anti tank. Oh wait. It can. Yeah, it will be a bitch to kill but its not like anything else that can be buffed so.

Banning is knee jerk and silly. Glad the tournaments I go to have more level heads and have missions that don't require killing to win. Objective missions > kill objectives anytime.

That is what everyone wants Fezz....

There is no way of knowing why GW doesn't do it. They could even charge a freaking subscription fee! I'd pay it.

GW 40k Network subscription. 100 dollars a year. You could still charge for individual file access too. It's too bad GW has 0 interest in actually making lots more money because they are already making tons of money.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Wait, people are crying over a Levi dread with buffs and character keyword?

Didn't realise a 14W model couldn't be targeted with my anti tank. Oh wait. It can. Yeah, it will be a bitch to kill but its not like anything else that can be buffed so.

Banning is knee jerk and silly. Glad the tournaments I go to have more level heads and have missions that don't require killing to win. Objective missions > kill objectives anytime.

IT's really not. Specific and obvious buffs make a lascannon deal max 2 damage to it and you have 6++ FNP. Like...A titan sword deals max 2 damage to you...its gross.

 Dr. Mills wrote:

Didn't realise a 14W model couldn't be targeted with my anti tank. Oh wait. It can. Yeah, it will be a bitch to kill but its not like anything else that can be buffed so.

He doesn't know....

Oh...oh no....

 Xenomancers wrote:
That is what everyone wants Fezz....

There is no way of knowing why GW doesn't do it. They could even charge a freaking subscription fee! I'd pay it.

GW 40k Network subscription. 100 dollars a year. You could still charge for individual file access too. It's too bad GW has 0 interest in actually making lots more money because they are already making tons of money.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Wait, people are crying over a Levi dread with buffs and character keyword?

Didn't realise a 14W model couldn't be targeted with my anti tank. Oh wait. It can. Yeah, it will be a bitch to kill but its not like anything else that can be buffed so.

Banning is knee jerk and silly. Glad the tournaments I go to have more level heads and have missions that don't require killing to win. Objective missions > kill objectives anytime.

IT's really not. Specific and obvious buffs make a lascannon deal max 2 damage to it and you have 6++ FNP. Like...A titan sword deals max 2 damage to you...its gross.

Sounds like you just need high strength weapons at that point then instead, oh and fight it in melee.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That is what everyone wants Fezz....

There is no way of knowing why GW doesn't do it. They could even charge a freaking subscription fee! I'd pay it.

GW 40k Network subscription. 100 dollars a year. You could still charge for individual file access too. It's too bad GW has 0 interest in actually making lots more money because they are already making tons of money.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Wait, people are crying over a Levi dread with buffs and character keyword?

Didn't realise a 14W model couldn't be targeted with my anti tank. Oh wait. It can. Yeah, it will be a bitch to kill but its not like anything else that can be buffed so.

Banning is knee jerk and silly. Glad the tournaments I go to have more level heads and have missions that don't require killing to win. Objective missions > kill objectives anytime.

IT's really not. Specific and obvious buffs make a lascannon deal max 2 damage to it and you have 6++ FNP. Like...A titan sword deals max 2 damage to you...its gross.

Sounds like you just need high strength weapons at that point then instead, oh and fight it in melee.

If melle is your only counter that is already broken. Several armies have 0 melee ability. Ironhands aren't particularly weak in melle ether. It probably remains to be seen what the best overall build is going to be. The ones that can make it impossible to charge a levi are going to be the best though.

2x Executioner in a triangle with a levi in the middle and tech marine with ironstone in the gap between the 3 of them. Seems like a pretty obvious build.
There's also a triple redemptor and ivinctor build I've got in my head (which will literally ass woop anything you throw at them in CC while dumping out isane number of shots as well)
Heck even maxing out landspeeders is an insane use of the relic ironstone because as a unit you can spread its benefits around...and if you get a 4++ for moving 12 inches I think dumping out tons of mobile firepower.

 Continuity wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:

Didn't realise a 14W model couldn't be targeted with my anti tank. Oh wait. It can. Yeah, it will be a bitch to kill but its not like anything else that can be buffed so.

He doesn't know....

Oh...oh no....

Haha, that was my thought too

 Xenomancers wrote:


2x Executioner in a triangle with a levi in the middle and tech marine with ironstone in the gap between the 3 of them. Seems like a pretty obvious build.

303 + 325 + 325 + 110 + 45 = ~1,100 points that will never move and gets LOS blocked. It will hold at most one objective. If I kill the other 900 points how are you going to ever hold more objectives?

Does that mean it will be an easy game? No, but it also is not that simple of a win unless the terrain is atrocious.

I don't think you can use the Invictor with IH strats....?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


2x Executioner in a triangle with a levi in the middle and tech marine with ironstone in the gap between the 3 of them. Seems like a pretty obvious build.

303 + 325 + 325 + 110 + 45 = ~1,100 points that will never move and gets LOS blocked. It will hold at most one objective. If I kill the other 900 points how are you going to ever hold more objectives?

Does that mean it will be an easy game? No, but it also is not that simple of a win unless the terrain is atrocious.

The whole group can move 5" with no difficulty and no penalty and is only necessary to run like against certain builds. It's purpose is to blow your opponent off the table with some of the most gross firepower in the game. You will not get LOS blocked ether - you can control and pivot your own units pretty free to give levi LOS...levi can see over the front of a repulsor NP - it is tall - i've already testest this formation....The point cost yea....3 of the most powerful units you could possibly take that are getting -1 damage and are unchargeable without ignore overwatch and you still have -2 charge because you can't possibly reach the levi without also charging the executioners and the units in front have fly keyword...It's pretty unbreakable without the ability to jump behind with a double move with shinning spears or something. Where are you seeing these city fight tournaments? I've been running powerballs for quite a while now with marines. The issue is not LOS - it's always been getting blown up having no defensive ability.

PLus its not like you are required to remain balled up ether. Each executioner can carry 6 dudes so you can move to the middle of the table safely then deploy a screen to prevent them holding back a deep strike unit to attack your levi.

Ironhands intercessors are great at holding objectives too. 6+ FNP helps them survive against heavy weapons and with stalker bolt rifles they can shoot almost anything they want with a pretty powerful shot. Can also chuck an ap -1 frag out at 30". Incredible objective holding.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't think you can use the Invictor with IH strats....?

It only needs to be a vheical to get the -1 damage aura. That is correct though they aren't dreads. Only 1 dread can get the half damage ability but -1 damage is still amazing when you have 13 wounds and a 5++ 6+++. Like...much more durable than wave serpents at that point. Serpants don't have 5++ saves.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't think you can use the Invictor with IH strats....?

Its called a Distraction Carnifex.
The Invictor is there to be scary and demand attention away from the actual meat of the list.
It doesn't need the Deadnought stratagems to do that.