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So you chose to play a FW army.....so? You don't play in that particular event, sorry. Your choice.
I've TO'd many FOW events, and I hear the same excuses. Why can't my Soviets play in a Normandy themed event? Really?
It's not all events, just some.
If we're talking about a narrative themed event, thats one thing, but then we're also not talking about a run of the mill event at that point.
But anyway, yes I chose to play an FW army, how and why is that different than choosing to play Space Marines generally?
Just to return to this since I've been gone most of the day..
I can answer the second part pretty easily.
When I stop by my GW store (or FLGS) on the way home, point me to the shelf where I can buy the FW army? Or even on the games-workshop online store. They are vastly different entities.
And that matters how? They are both GW models. FW is part of GW. They are 100% part of same company. Easily bought. And by far less balance issues than GW main studio. Banning them is just knee jerk reaction from lazy TO's.
because he was specifically talking about FW armies, not the odd FW model.
It's a different entity altogether (I think we're just talking R+H right? Or maybe Elysians too...not sure...which highlights the point even more.....they are not recognizable and known armies due to zero exposure outside of specific FW book(s)) It's a separate army with no space on a GW shelf, no drop down menu on the GW website. It IS different. Don't get all butthurt that you can't play them in a tournament, you chose a niche list that is not a mainstream army. It's not about power level of the army, I'm sure they can't be that strong because I've never seen a single one played.....ever.
Or the fact that on the maing GW webshop page the related sites thingy exists?
Summa sumarum, if you advocate for that you might aswell ban any codex you don't like or is percived as fringe.
here f.e. not many play GSC, should they also be banned because nobody could play against them?
No matter how you turn that it is illlogical.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/02 13:03:31
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
This not online guy uses the same argument “ban official games workshop codex then” because he had none better. Sad and pathetic just because you aren’t agreed with
Klickor wrote: I wouldnt mind a complete banning of FW in most tournaments. Just to keep the amount of Datasheets down to a more reasonable number. At least for Imperium since the amount of units is staggering. 40k feels a lot like the one who could remember all the units and especially stratagems is the one who wins. Not really a problem in a smaller and more easily acessable game but 40k rules are all over the place. I could probably learn all the armies in 4th edition faster than just Marines with their supplements and how all the stratagems and tactics work now in 8th.
I wouldnt ban just 1 unit though since I think its more of a bloat/information problem than a powerlevel problem. And leviathans arent exactly obscure so how to play against them isnt a secret
Some FW units could probably become regular units and lots of normal Datasheets being consolidated at the same time. I would still like to see the FW units on the table but then perhaps more as count as since they do look good or in more casual games in which I could spend 15-20min talking with my opponent before we even start rolling aby dice
For me (and I'm pretty sure when I first answered in this thread, I stated "personally"), this is it right here. It's the number of datasheets to know and remember.
Sure, they were there before IH, for me the above problem still existed, but wasn't game changing.
The new book has possibly made them game changing.....should find out over the next couple of months. I do expect we will see some nerfs to the IH at some point, but that could be a long way away.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: This not online guy uses the same argument “ban official games workshop codex then” because he had none better. Sad and pathetic just because you aren’t agreed with
No, i make an exemple, E.G: (exemple given) with the same application of logic.
This is also why i am in favour of a waterthight matched play ruleset, released by GW and or officially sanctioned by them TO BE ADDOPTED as standard.
Because the situation we have here in this situation is that local tournaments go around willy nilly banning stuff , leading to worse data overall on balance etc.
But i guess rather then read you just like to throw gak.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/02 13:09:15
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: This not online guy uses the same argument “ban official games workshop codex then” because he had none better. Sad and pathetic just because you aren’t agreed with
Except that is what the argument boils down to.
Genestealer Cults and AdMech/Skitarii are amazing examples of this. They are unfamiliar units/armies that were eventually released (with Cults gaining even more units this edition), but would you ban these new things because unfamiliarity? That certainly wouldn't make sense because that's stupid! Same with banning anything being stupid.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: This not online guy uses the same argument “ban official games workshop codex then” because he had none better. Sad and pathetic just because you aren’t agreed with
Except that is what the argument boils down to.
Genestealer Cults and AdMech/Skitarii are amazing examples of this. They are unfamiliar units/armies that were eventually released (with Cults gaining even more units this edition), but would you ban these new things because unfamiliarity? That certainly wouldn't make sense because that's stupid! Same with banning anything being stupid.
let it rest. some people can read but understand they will never.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: This not online guy uses the same argument “ban official games workshop codex then” because he had none better. Sad and pathetic just because you aren’t agreed with
Except that is what the argument boils down to.
Genestealer Cults and AdMech/Skitarii are amazing examples of this. They are unfamiliar units/armies that were eventually released (with Cults gaining even more units this edition), but would you ban these new things because unfamiliarity? That certainly wouldn't make sense because that's stupid! Same with banning anything being stupid.
If we banned stupidity, a good chunk of 40k players wouldnt make it through the door.
So you chose to play a FW army.....so? You don't play in that particular event, sorry. Your choice.
I've TO'd many FOW events, and I hear the same excuses. Why can't my Soviets play in a Normandy themed event? Really?
It's not all events, just some.
If we're talking about a narrative themed event, thats one thing, but then we're also not talking about a run of the mill event at that point.
But anyway, yes I chose to play an FW army, how and why is that different than choosing to play Space Marines generally?
Just to return to this since I've been gone most of the day..
I can answer the second part pretty easily.
When I stop by my GW store (or FLGS) on the way home, point me to the shelf where I can buy the FW army? Or even on the games-workshop online store. They are vastly different entities.
And that matters how? They are both GW models. FW is part of GW. They are 100% part of same company. Easily bought. And by far less balance issues than GW main studio. Banning them is just knee jerk reaction from lazy TO's.
because he was specifically talking about FW armies, not the odd FW model.
It's a different entity altogether (I think we're just talking R+H right? Or maybe Elysians too...not sure...which highlights the point even more.....they are not recognizable and known armies due to zero exposure outside of specific FW book(s)) It's a separate army with no space on a GW shelf, no drop down menu on the GW website. It IS different. Don't get all butthurt that you can't play them in a tournament, you chose a niche list that is not a mainstream army. It's not about power level of the army, I'm sure they can't be that strong because I've never seen a single one played.....ever.
Or the fact that on the maing GW webshop page the related sites thingy exists?
Summa sumarum, if you advocate for that you might aswell ban any codex you don't like or is percived as fringe.
here f.e. not many play GSC, should they also be banned because nobody could play against them?
No matter how you turn that it is illlogical.
do you even read English? Go to the GW webstore, click on Warhammer 40,000 tab, scroll down the left column at all of the armies listed, show me R+H? I fully understand that if I specifically search for FW I will find it, but that is not the point that you seem to keep missing entirely. It's not a perception of "fringe", it is fringe. perhaps GW will eventually roll out an actual R+H list in the future with new models, but it isn't there now. All armies are getting something in Psychic Awakening is GWs pitch......want to place a bet that R+H isn't on that list of 'all armies". i wonder why.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: This not online guy uses the same argument “ban official games workshop codex then” because he had none better. Sad and pathetic just because you aren’t agreed with
Except that is what the argument boils down to.
Genestealer Cults and AdMech/Skitarii are amazing examples of this. They are unfamiliar units/armies that were eventually released (with Cults gaining even more units this edition), but would you ban these new things because unfamiliarity? That certainly wouldn't make sense because that's stupid! Same with banning anything being stupid.
If we banned stupidity, a good chunk of 40k players wouldnt make it through the door.
errare humanum est sed in errare perseverare diabolicum
So you chose to play a FW army.....so? You don't play in that particular event, sorry. Your choice.
I've TO'd many FOW events, and I hear the same excuses. Why can't my Soviets play in a Normandy themed event? Really?
It's not all events, just some.
If we're talking about a narrative themed event, thats one thing, but then we're also not talking about a run of the mill event at that point.
But anyway, yes I chose to play an FW army, how and why is that different than choosing to play Space Marines generally?
Just to return to this since I've been gone most of the day..
I can answer the second part pretty easily.
When I stop by my GW store (or FLGS) on the way home, point me to the shelf where I can buy the FW army? Or even on the games-workshop online store. They are vastly different entities.
And that matters how? They are both GW models. FW is part of GW. They are 100% part of same company. Easily bought. And by far less balance issues than GW main studio. Banning them is just knee jerk reaction from lazy TO's.
because he was specifically talking about FW armies, not the odd FW model.
It's a different entity altogether (I think we're just talking R+H right? Or maybe Elysians too...not sure...which highlights the point even more.....they are not recognizable and known armies due to zero exposure outside of specific FW book(s)) It's a separate army with no space on a GW shelf, no drop down menu on the GW website. It IS different. Don't get all butthurt that you can't play them in a tournament, you chose a niche list that is not a mainstream army. It's not about power level of the army, I'm sure they can't be that strong because I've never seen a single one played.....ever.
Or the fact that on the maing GW webshop page the related sites thingy exists?
Summa sumarum, if you advocate for that you might aswell ban any codex you don't like or is percived as fringe.
here f.e. not many play GSC, should they also be banned because nobody could play against them?
No matter how you turn that it is illlogical.
do you even read English? Go to the GW webstore, click on Warhammer 40,000 tab, scroll down the left column at all of the armies listed, show me R+H? I fully understand that if I specifically search for FW I will find it, but that is not the point that you seem to keep missing entirely. It's not a perception of "fringe", it is fringe. perhaps GW will eventually roll out an actual R+H list in the future with new models, but it isn't there now. All armies are getting something in Psychic Awakening is GWs pitch......want to place a bet that R+H isn't on that list of 'all armies". i wonder why.
Again, the Webstore is not relevant to the discussion and even if it were, the community page is far more important, and guess what you find there all over the shop.
So, you might not find it on the GW store, you sure as hell find the way to FW from there or the community page. Heck you find the rules on the community page.
Also GW stated that the banner with the flags at the start of psy awakening is not who will get an update.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/02 13:16:06
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
chimeara wrote: Some friends shared this with me. I think that it's extreme, however necessary. I've played the new IH stuff with my knights. It's not even close to fun. I killed almost nothing.
When is forgeworld going to fix that model? It's beyond broken, straight unfun to play against.
Hit on 2+ reroll 1s, 4++ @T8 with 16 S8 AP-2 2 DMG shots.
Seriously.
For 300 points. You keep skipping that part very conveniently.
Firstly, I'm loath to ban anything like that as it feels like a knee jerk reaction to a problem we all see.
Secondly, just because it costs so many points isn't some promise of greatness. I don't know why you keep trotting that out as some kind of justification. I mean lets see some high point suck choices shall we ? Lets here, Land raiders, super expensive, pretty poop. Logan on storm rider, almost 200 pts, not very wonderful. Vendettas pretty poop, around 230 pts. I mean really, if we take a look at many books a great number of the units aren't very good or worth what point cost they have. Just because it costs 300 pts doesn't mean it has to be good, it should be good but then when so much is bad for its cost and it's so good its an auto include that is a huge hint of a problem.
The problem may not be that the Levi is too good, the fact may be that most other choices are just so bad. The unmistakable issue is that you need to raise up poor units, drag down OP no brainer choices and either make everything ho hum or make everything feel like an auto include. Anything less and you have balance issues that will frustrate people and force these knee jerk bans and I think we know GW love to punish FW so I might not get too used to Levis if this process continues.
As well as much as I dislike banning things because it's good, if a choice becomes a no brainer inclusion to most any list that can take it, that can't be allowed to stay as it is or you can't say you want to balance the game at all. I don't even use a levi, nor have I ever played against one but I'll be damned if I haven't learned all about it from every battle report, and online chatter about it, that tells me something. IH just twists the unit up just that touch more where as before it was a no brainer now it also buffs it out which says as much about IH. Time will tell how it shakes out but I can't imagine these IH lists are much fun to play against which also leads to people crying for bans as they get bitter or angry. Much like how people cry about guard infantry squads even though they are totally fine in a mono guard list. People are just tired of seeing them in so many lists with knights so they want them nerfed and never seen again, the levi ban is just being perhaps more honest with the intent.
This all goes back and falls at GWs feet who really need to work harder on making some level of better balance, fix the borked core rules to limit some of the abuses of the shaky system and admit they are either poor at doing this or really don't want to either way its time for honesty on their end and I for one would applaud them for being forthright, finally.
What I'm saying is, if you pay so much for a unit, you should expect some sorta great performance, with those bad units you listed having their own set of issues (Land Raiders are stopped by a single Gaunt sitting in front of it, and now they can't drop off their cargo! Oh and transport rules basically suck).
So if I spend 300 points on a Marine heavy support, I should get 16 S8 shots plus small arms. Great.
So if I spend 300 points on a CWE heavy support, lets say Dark Reapers. That's about 16 shots with just about the same stats.
Except S5. So about equal when shooting gretchin or T17+... That happens a lot...
And then the small arms fire that the Reapers don't get..
Always hits on 3s vs 2+ rerollable - typically worse hitting, but better in corner cases (2+ rerollable wins vs -2-to-hit, but 3s win vs -3-to-hit or better)
So it's like the same thing in killiness. Only it's not nearly as heavy hitting. And hits less often. And no secondary weapon.
And then we're talking 8 T3 3+Sv infantry vs a T8 4++ walker - so nowhere close in durability.
And I picked Reapers instead of Preds, Devs, Hammerheads or whatnot because it's widely agreed that Reapers are *really* good firepower for their points. But this thing dwarfs them. So better than almost all glass-cannon firepower per point. And LandRaider-esque durability.
It's like 6E Serpents all over again. Only you're the guy defending them.
Sigmatron wrote: So when is the Eldar flyer spam gonna get banned at events? Hopefully more events don't follow this example.
Eldar flyers are less of an issue if your playing the actual game GW writes instead of ITC.
Few tournaments are "GW games" as apposed to ITC. So they are a problem.
Sounds like the ITC is the problem. It is not really GWs fault if your houserules cause unintended consequences.
Damn right.
ITC has warped everything about this game in a really bad way.
Sorry I must have missed the memo where 7 untouchable flyers with massive threat range, consistent damage and can essentially teleport across the board is only good because of ITC.
ETC mission will force you to bring more balanced list, since flyers don`t control objectives you can`t score and you don`t win if you table opponent.
You can get so super behind on first turns that you cant never recover and if you play risky with the flyers to deny opponent movement, they can be smashed in close range.
ITC missions really benefit kill power and punish you if you bring certain units and most tournaments don`t have enough terrain to allow more tactical play.
There is a reason flyers did not dominate Nova or Addepticon and did very good on LGT that used ITC mission pack.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: The way I see it, there's a valid argument for banning forge world from competitive play: if nobody is going to actively update the rules like ever, and standard GW rules are written without regards to their existence, then there's a lot of room for something unforseen and really broken to show up that has no chance of getting fixed because there's no review cycle for them.
Personally, as I said, I don't think it's the best solution, but I definitely see the point.
Chaos knights get released, 1 week of testing showed GW that FW knights with this rules will be to strong and than suddenly FW changed their knights I really think it`s showing FW rules are not tested enough, GW don`t have the time or the people to do it and it`s led the community to find broken things.
I remember some guy won tournament in England with Scorpios with relics and after that tournament the rules were changed.
That is creating feels bad moment where you sneak a win, using totally broken combo.
I`m sure the TO really tough about his decision and was sure that it`s the best call. Especially expecting he will get flame for his decision.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: Looking at ETC 2019 lists 96 razorwings, 24 voidraven.Word drukhari(1 per player with dark eldars, 1 per detachment) appeared 98 times. 105 crimson hunters, 20 hemlocks with word aeldar appearing 41 times.
Flyer spam exists well.
Yea, it exist because it`s tournament format and flyer spam counter alot of the lists. Altrough it is not taken super seriously ESC was won by AM army.
We know that AM is one of the worst performance in ITC, yet it won in other format and performed super good in the team format.
Considering tournament keeper was never updated, the players and list not filled correctly, there is no way to make good analyze.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/02 13:57:03
If GW considered FW when creating strategems this wouldnt be an issue. They simply dont and this has been shown over and over again. The half wounds strat is no issue on a redemptor or ven dread. Maybe strats, relics and WTs etc should only be allowed to codex entries. This way you can still bring your FW toys, but they don't benefit from strats and relics etc.
Levi has 20 shots with storm cannons....please get it right.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
bullyboy wrote: If GW considered FW when creating strategems this wouldnt be an issue. They simply dont and this has been shown over and over again. The half wounds strat is no issue on a redemptor or ven dread. Maybe strats, relics and WTs etc should only be allowed to codex entries. This way you can still bring your FW toys, but they don't benefit from strats and relics etc.
Why shouldn't they benefit? Just because you say they shouldn't?
Which FW units are an issue with Strats that you need to make a statement like that? There are none.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
bullyboy wrote: If GW considered FW when creating strategems this wouldnt be an issue. They simply dont and this has been shown over and over again. The half wounds strat is no issue on a redemptor or ven dread. Maybe strats, relics and WTs etc should only be allowed to codex entries. This way you can still bring your FW toys, but they don't benefit from strats and relics etc.
This is reasonable and hopefully what GW lands on as well.
bullyboy wrote: If GW considered FW when creating strategems this wouldnt be an issue. They simply dont and this has been shown over and over again. The half wounds strat is no issue on a redemptor or ven dread. Maybe strats, relics and WTs etc should only be allowed to codex entries. This way you can still bring your FW toys, but they don't benefit from strats and relics etc.
Why shouldn't they benefit? Just because you say they shouldn't?
Which FW units are an issue with Strats that you need to make a statement like that? There are none.
He let's ignore the rules bloat of stratagems and wannabee formations,let's just ignore the core issue and fix symptoms, that will surely and certainly lead to a healthy rules system-.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/02 14:48:43
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
bullyboy wrote: If GW considered FW when creating strategems this wouldnt be an issue. They simply dont and this has been shown over and over again. The half wounds strat is no issue on a redemptor or ven dread. Maybe strats, relics and WTs etc should only be allowed to codex entries. This way you can still bring your FW toys, but they don't benefit from strats and relics etc.
Again, tell me why my spined beast of tzeentch shouldn't get warp surge? Does it single handedly wreck your game?
Nope, the issue is this one combination at present. Blanket banning or restricting underpowered units to tackle 1 problem entry is burying your head in the sand and ignorant at best.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually I think the answer is to roll FW into the codex at last. Irrespective of which webpage it's bought from etc.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/02 14:57:38
bullyboy wrote: If GW considered FW when creating strategems this wouldnt be an issue. They simply dont and this has been shown over and over again. The half wounds strat is no issue on a redemptor or ven dread. Maybe strats, relics and WTs etc should only be allowed to codex entries. This way you can still bring your FW toys, but they don't benefit from strats and relics etc.
Again, tell me why my spined beast of tzeentch shouldn't get warp surge? Does it single handedly wreck your game?
Nope, the issue is this one combination at present. Blanket banning or restricting underpowered units to tackle 1 problem entry is burying your head in the sand and ignorant at best.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually I think the answer is to roll FW into the codex at last. Irrespective of which webpage it's bought from etc.
Ofc that is the answer.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
bullyboy wrote: If GW considered FW when creating strategems this wouldnt be an issue. They simply dont and this has been shown over and over again. The half wounds strat is no issue on a redemptor or ven dread. Maybe strats, relics and WTs etc should only be allowed to codex entries. This way you can still bring your FW toys, but they don't benefit from strats and relics etc.
Again, tell me why my spined beast of tzeentch shouldn't get warp surge? Does it single handedly wreck your game?
Nope, the issue is this one combination at present. Blanket banning or restricting underpowered units to tackle 1 problem entry is burying your head in the sand and ignorant at best.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually I think the answer is to roll FW into the codex at last. Irrespective of which webpage it's bought from etc.
Ofc that is the answer.
Aye.
That would fix alot of issues with the FW models itself.
Actually it probably wouldn't because gw but still.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Please, no. Please don't roll both into the same codex. Can you imagine the cost of the codexes? A normal codex is about 25 cents per page, if we go off a 40$ codex about 150 pages.
Now lets do the SM Codex, with FW rolled in. Guessing about 200 pages? Gods I don't even want to think about the Guard codex. Talk about bloat, that's 300 pages. Now if we are talking hard cover codex, expect Codexes to start costing 80-100 dollars.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Please, no. Please don't roll both into the same codex. Can you imagine the cost of the codexes? A normal codex is about 25 cents per page, if we go off a 40$ codex about 150 pages.
Now lets do the SM Codex, with FW rolled in. Guessing about 200 pages? Gods I don't even want to think about the Guard codex. Talk about bloat, that's 300 pages. Now if we are talking hard cover codex, expect Codexes to start costing 80-100 dollars.
Or MAYBE, just hear me out, the codices shouldn't be that expensive in the first place!
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
bullyboy wrote: If GW considered FW when creating strategems this wouldnt be an issue. They simply dont and this has been shown over and over again. The half wounds strat is no issue on a redemptor or ven dread. Maybe strats, relics and WTs etc should only be allowed to codex entries. This way you can still bring your FW toys, but they don't benefit from strats and relics etc.
Again, tell me why my spined beast of tzeentch shouldn't get warp surge? Does it single handedly wreck your game?
Nope, the issue is this one combination at present. Blanket banning or restricting underpowered units to tackle 1 problem entry is burying your head in the sand and ignorant at best.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually I think the answer is to roll FW into the codex at last. Irrespective of which webpage it's bought from etc.
Honestly, I don't even know or care what the spined beast is. If its a reasonable datasheet it doesnt need strats. This thread is about the darasheets that are severely affected by codex strats, not those that aren't.
Leviarhan, half damage, iron stone....this is the topic
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/02 15:19:35
bullyboy wrote: If GW considered FW when creating strategems this wouldnt be an issue. They simply dont and this has been shown over and over again. The half wounds strat is no issue on a redemptor or ven dread. Maybe strats, relics and WTs etc should only be allowed to codex entries. This way you can still bring your FW toys, but they don't benefit from strats and relics etc.
Again, tell me why my spined beast of tzeentch shouldn't get warp surge? Does it single handedly wreck your game?
Nope, the issue is this one combination at present. Blanket banning or restricting underpowered units to tackle 1 problem entry is burying your head in the sand and ignorant at best.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually I think the answer is to roll FW into the codex at last. Irrespective of which webpage it's bought from etc.
Honestly, I don't even know or care what the spined beast is. If its a reasonable datasheet it doesnt need strats. This thread is about the darasheets that are severely affected by codex strats, not those that aren't.
Leviarhan, half damage, iron stone....this is the topic
So bad units just need to he compensates by Strats? You're not making any sense. You didn't in the first place though.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Please, no. Please don't roll both into the same codex. Can you imagine the cost of the codexes? A normal codex is about 25 cents per page, if we go off a 40$ codex about 150 pages.
Now lets do the SM Codex, with FW rolled in. Guessing about 200 pages? Gods I don't even want to think about the Guard codex. Talk about bloat, that's 300 pages. Now if we are talking hard cover codex, expect Codexes to start costing 80-100 dollars.
Or MAYBE, just hear me out, the codices shouldn't be that expensive in the first place!
Considering we anyways have to pay for a balance Patch in ca form, yes the dexes should not be as expensive, especially since they are printed in China.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Please, no. Please don't roll both into the same codex. Can you imagine the cost of the codexes? A normal codex is about 25 cents per page, if we go off a 40$ codex about 150 pages.
Now lets do the SM Codex, with FW rolled in. Guessing about 200 pages? Gods I don't even want to think about the Guard codex. Talk about bloat, that's 300 pages. Now if we are talking hard cover codex, expect Codexes to start costing 80-100 dollars.
Or MAYBE, just hear me out, the codices shouldn't be that expensive in the first place!
Yeah, and I want GW to paint all my models free of charge. Until that happens, we live in the real world, where GW charges for everything.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Please, no. Please don't roll both into the same codex. Can you imagine the cost of the codexes? A normal codex is about 25 cents per page, if we go off a 40$ codex about 150 pages.
Now lets do the SM Codex, with FW rolled in. Guessing about 200 pages? Gods I don't even want to think about the Guard codex. Talk about bloat, that's 300 pages. Now if we are talking hard cover codex, expect Codexes to start costing 80-100 dollars.
The old IA books with all those units, multiple scenarios and campaign information, and that often would essentially be a codex for two or three different armies (e.g. DKoK and R&H for example in IA5) were about that price, but they were also substantially smaller print runs in huge coffee table formats.
Plenty of high production value gaming books come in at $40-60 with page counts of 200-300+, there is no reason they'd need to be $100. Look to Battlefront, TTCombat, FFG, etc for examples. More fundamentally, there's no way GW could charge that and have thr market sustain it, and they know it.
That said, they wouldn't need to be 300 pages either, there aren't *that* many units and there isn't a spectacular amount of unit specific fluff attached to most. We don't need a full page fluff spread and separate datasheet on a Russ Annihilator or an Armageddon pattern Basilisk for example (just roll their options into the existing basic units).
I don't expect this will happen, but it needn't result in some monster expensive gargantuan tome either.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Please, no. Please don't roll both into the same codex. Can you imagine the cost of the codexes? A normal codex is about 25 cents per page, if we go off a 40$ codex about 150 pages.
Now lets do the SM Codex, with FW rolled in. Guessing about 200 pages? Gods I don't even want to think about the Guard codex. Talk about bloat, that's 300 pages. Now if we are talking hard cover codex, expect Codexes to start costing 80-100 dollars.
Or MAYBE, just hear me out, the codices shouldn't be that expensive in the first place!
Yeah, and I want GW to paint all my models free of charge. Until that happens, we live in the real world, where GW charges for everything.
Free =/= Not That Expensive. Read my post again
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
bullyboy wrote: If GW considered FW when creating strategems this wouldnt be an issue. They simply dont and this has been shown over and over again. The half wounds strat is no issue on a redemptor or ven dread. Maybe strats, relics and WTs etc should only be allowed to codex entries. This way you can still bring your FW toys, but they don't benefit from strats and relics etc.
Again, tell me why my spined beast of tzeentch shouldn't get warp surge? Does it single handedly wreck your game?
Nope, the issue is this one combination at present. Blanket banning or restricting underpowered units to tackle 1 problem entry is burying your head in the sand and ignorant at best.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually I think the answer is to roll FW into the codex at last. Irrespective of which webpage it's bought from etc.
Honestly, I don't even know or care what the spined beast is. If its a reasonable datasheet it doesnt need strats. This thread is about the darasheets that are severely affected by codex strats, not those that aren't.
Leviarhan, half damage, iron stone....this is the topic
It is the topic and your answer was no FW units get codex level buffs. You would punish units you don't know exist to fix 1 entry that's a problem for 1 subfaction.
Do you rip out all the light fittings in your house because a bulbs blown or something? It's the same level of needless overreaction.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Please, no. Please don't roll both into the same codex. Can you imagine the cost of the codexes? A normal codex is about 25 cents per page, if we go off a 40$ codex about 150 pages.
Now lets do the SM Codex, with FW rolled in. Guessing about 200 pages? Gods I don't even want to think about the Guard codex. Talk about bloat, that's 300 pages. Now if we are talking hard cover codex, expect Codexes to start costing 80-100 dollars.
I'd glady pay double/triple the price to have a consolidated marines codex.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Please, no. Please don't roll both into the same codex. Can you imagine the cost of the codexes? A normal codex is about 25 cents per page, if we go off a 40$ codex about 150 pages.
Now lets do the SM Codex, with FW rolled in. Guessing about 200 pages? Gods I don't even want to think about the Guard codex. Talk about bloat, that's 300 pages. Now if we are talking hard cover codex, expect Codexes to start costing 80-100 dollars.
I'd glady pay double/triple the price to have a consolidated marines codex.
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