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Pro FW players are just salty no one wants them to play with their even MORE overpriced plastic army men

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If anyone had that many rules and insisted on using them, every single turn on THEIR clock I’d ask as many questions as I’d want, look at data sheets, ask about specific weapons, interactions, movements, special rules, etc. who cares if their clock goes down.

THIS is why I don't like to play competitive. You sound like "that guy" personified. Seriously if someone wants to ban fw from their tournament that's their call. They can insist every army in it be painted pink if they want. It's then everyone's decision if they want to play in that tournament. My problem is arguing for nerfing fw in the rules everyone uses. That affects people outside your tournament. Don't like the units or rules? Just ban them from your tournament and leave everyone else alone. But as far as banning things because of "too many rules "? Go download battlescribe for feths sake.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I own a levi dread. The people Ive used it against when were are playing just semi competitive games would really rather not face it. Because it results in them just picking up units every time it shoots. This was before the new marine codex made it even better...It is a clear OP unit and overall best unit marines have access to. It's not a boogeyman - it's been out in front all edition and everyone knows its OP. The only reason space marines wern't able to win with it is because they rest of their army was fething atrociously bad.

The same could be said with many regular GW units.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

- GW rules cost money, whereas FW gives their's away basically for free. Downloaded PDFs. GW gives nothing away for free.

Ah so them charging my credit card for the Imperial Armour books must have been a mistake.

Dudeface wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
...FW makes obscure units that do particular things really well...it is a balancing nightmare...Like...just look at a sicarian punisher. It's also extremely busted as iron hands and with doctrines. While it is true that GW also makes really busted rules...they are almost always exploited better by a FW unit...

Maybe if they stopped writing all their rules in a little vacuum-sealed bubble without acknowledging the existence of anything else outside of that book?

considering the rules teams have been folded together one would expect better results right?

Ehh - I find that really hard to believe. If I was writting a space marine codex and making changes to units within it why wouldn't I simultaneously modify the FW army entries? They benefit from the codex just as much as any unit inside the codex. They don't even consider them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:
A lot of the ban FW cries come from a fear of the unknown, it's often units people don't see often and dont understand so they become the boogeymen.

Often people get a whooping from unit because they weren't sure how it behaves and didn't plan for it, so when they see it's not in a codex it becomes easy to point at it and blame it.

Agreed the weirdest combos are usually FW units because codex writers seem to forget they exist for some reason.

I own a levi dread. The people Ive used it against when were are playing just semi competitive games would really rather not face it. Because it results in them just picking up units every time it shoots. This was before the new marine codex made it even better...It is a clear OP unit and overall best unit marines have access to. It's not a boogeyman - it's been out in front all edition and everyone knows its OP. The only reason space marines wern't able to win with it is because they rest of their army was fething atrociously bad.

I agree on the leviathan, I more meant why people knee jerk to the ban all fw card.

I used to be like that because I couldn't afford FW. Now that I can I am more open minded about it. The truth is FW makes a lot of OP units and a lot of really bad ones too. Just like GW in that sense. The issue is FW units break the mold of what units can do. They get strange special rules designed to be cool and often get things that codex units dont get...Tons of guns / invune saves / sometimes just a stronger unit that costs more but as a result stacks much harder with stratagems.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Pro FW players are just salty no one wants them to play with their even MORE overpriced plastic army men

I hope they switch to plastic, becuase their resin is , erm , absurdly great /S

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If anyone had that many rules and insisted on using them, every single turn on THEIR clock I’d ask as many questions as I’d want, look at data sheets, ask about specific weapons, interactions, movements, special rules, etc. who cares if their clock goes down.

THIS is why I don't like to play competitive. You sound like "that guy" personified. Seriously if someone wants to ban fw from their tournament that's their call. They can insist every army in it be painted pink if they want. It's then everyone's decision if they want to play in that tournament. My problem is arguing for nerfing fw in the rules everyone uses. That affects people outside your tournament. Don't like the units or rules? Just ban them from your tournament and leave everyone else alone. But as far as banning things because of "too many rules "? Go download battlescribe for feths sake.

I’d rather get them fewer turns, moves, and activations by running out their clock with questions, and making them make mistakes because their brain is focusing on the questions and not on the strategy. On the flip side if they tried doing the same to me, I’d carry out my activations, explain in a few seconds what it does, and stop my clock for their response to my action to start their clock again. Making sure mine doesn’t get wasted with such trivial matters

If people believe FW are not slightly more OP than their codex equivalents then why is it than when asking for list advice the default often is ...take a Leviathan, take a mortis Contemptor, etc? I've lost count how many times when building a DA list that needs the last few hundred points being filled, and specifically stating not FW (mainly because I don't have the option or intend to spend the $$ to access) that I still get "take a leviathan, contemptor mortis, chaplain dread, etc). Same with my Deathwatch.

And to clarify..
Not all FW is OP, by a long shot
FW make some fine looking units
Removing FW from an event won't ruin anyone's experience

heck, give me a monodex tournament, would be a blast. Yes, that means Space Marines only, not UM, RG, IH, WS etc. Just one source for your army.

 bullyboy wrote:
If people believe FW are not slightly more OP than their codex equivalents then why is it than when asking for list advice the default often is ...take a Leviathan, take a mortis Contemptor, etc? I've lost count how many times when building a DA list that needs the last few hundred points being filled, and specifically stating not FW (mainly because I don't have the option or intend to spend the $$ to access) that I still get "take a leviathan, contemptor mortis, chaplain dread, etc). Same with my Deathwatch.

And to clarify..
Not all FW is OP, by a long shot
FW make some fine looking units
Removing FW from an event won't ruin anyone's experience

heck, give me a monodex tournament, would be a blast. Yes, that means Space Marines only, not UM, RG, IH, WS etc. Just one source for your army.

First part, Becuase in spite of GW's efforts, the CSM /SM armies lack a good and i mean good inhouse ranged Dreadnought option. Which is what the Leviathan fills.

Secondly: Yes infact most of the FW stuff is so underwhelming you are not seeing any beyond the dreads.

Thirdly: That is if they don't feth up the resin again, i still have a unsued R&H icon that is filled between all parts and bent with holes in it from my last buy before R&H went OOP. Not to mention the shoulder pads of my decimator....

Fourth: Removing FW would infact hit all that have a FW index list, FW units, etc. so stating that it would not ruin anyones experience is just :

Fifth: A monodex tournament would mostly be interesting until the strong monodexes show up, and depending on the ruleset used you would see the usual suspects to show up.

If your list depends on FW, that’s a personal problem and impacts very VERY few people. Sorry but the minority loses. Goodbye FW players, find a new combo to use in the hobby or leave

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If your list depends on FW, that’s a personal problem and impacts very VERY few people. Sorry but the minority loses. Goodbye FW players, find a new combo to use in the hobby or leave

So should we also ban any and all eldar flyer because it's a minority aswell and highly skew ?

OR knights,
Or..
Or,,,
etc. et.c

Should we implement a total banlist then?

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If your list depends on FW, that’s a personal problem and impacts very VERY few people. Sorry but the minority loses. Goodbye FW players, find a new combo to use in the hobby or leave

Sure, rather than sprinkling in my blood slaughterer or spined beast for a laugh, I'll swap it out for some more lord discordants. That's a much nicer list to play against

Dudeface wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If your list depends on FW, that’s a personal problem and impacts very VERY few people. Sorry but the minority loses. Goodbye FW players, find a new combo to use in the hobby or leave

Sure, rather than sprinkling in my blood slaughterer or spined beast for a laugh, I'll swap it out for some more lord discordants. That's a much nicer list to play against

Could always throw down an allied in Chaos knight, i heard the melee version packs a nasty punch.

FW units have their place. I wouldn't want to set them banned. But the playable ones are strong enough that they would still see play even without access to CT or stratagems. That seems more reasonable to me.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If anyone had that many rules and insisted on using them, every single turn on THEIR clock I’d ask as many questions as I’d want, look at data sheets, ask about specific weapons, interactions, movements, special rules, etc. who cares if their clock goes down.

THIS is why I don't like to play competitive. You sound like "that guy" personified. Seriously if someone wants to ban fw from their tournament that's their call. They can insist every army in it be painted pink if they want. It's then everyone's decision if they want to play in that tournament. My problem is arguing for nerfing fw in the rules everyone uses. That affects people outside your tournament. Don't like the units or rules? Just ban them from your tournament and leave everyone else alone. But as far as banning things because of "too many rules "? Go download battlescribe for feths sake.

I’d rather get them fewer turns, moves, and activations by running out their clock with questions, and making them make mistakes because their brain is focusing on the questions and not on the strategy. On the flip side if they tried doing the same to me, I’d carry out my activations, explain in a few seconds what it does, and stop my clock for their response to my action to start their clock again. Making sure mine doesn’t get wasted with such trivial matters

1) Questions you are on the asker's time, not the answerer's.
2) You don't ever stop the clock.
3) If you really do this, please stop, you're being a dick and giving the 99.9% of competitive players who are decent human beings a bad name,

Not Online!!! wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If your list depends on FW, that’s a personal problem and impacts very VERY few people. Sorry but the minority loses. Goodbye FW players, find a new combo to use in the hobby or leave

So should we also ban any and all eldar flyer because it's a minority aswell and highly skew ?

OR knights,
Or..
Or,,,
etc. et.c

Should we implement a total banlist then?

Would love to see an adjustment to Eldar fliers, yes (and this coming from someone with 2 hemlocks)

FW only players are taking a risk for games, period. You chose a niche army, so it comes with risk.

 bullyboy wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If your list depends on FW, that’s a personal problem and impacts very VERY few people. Sorry but the minority loses. Goodbye FW players, find a new combo to use in the hobby or leave

So should we also ban any and all eldar flyer because it's a minority aswell and highly skew ?

OR knights,
Or..
Or,,,
etc. et.c

Should we implement a total banlist then?

Would love to see an adjustment to Eldar fliers, yes (and this coming from someone with 2 hemlocks)

FW only players are taking a risk for games, period. You chose a niche army, so it comes with risk.

By that standard all xenos armies are niches
Job done, just kick em out then.

Just play 30k. Remove all the options and bask in the balance of perfect symmetry!

 LunarSol wrote:
Just play 30k. Remove all the options and bask in the balance of perfect symmetry!

until phosphex shows up

I love seeing all these "You can't ban FW" when big tournaments scenes like the ETC have had FW banned for years, and still do.

 Ordana wrote:
I love seeing all these "You can't ban FW" when big tournaments scenes like the ETC have had FW banned for years, and still do.

And it's just as moronic there as it is in this instance.

 LunarSol wrote:
Just play 30k. Remove all the options and bask in the balance of perfect symmetry!

Except it's a FW game, so you'd have to ban all books.

I feel dirty saying this but tbh it’s not really an issue with GW’s rules so much that it’s the frankly terrible itc rules becoming standard that causes a lot of these issues.

If you play the game as intended with actual meaningful objectives these huge point sink terror weapons are much less of an issue if there actually an issue at all.

Sometimes I look at the outrage online and wonder if it was started by some tourney player who can see a hard counter to there current point and click list.

 bullyboy wrote:


So you chose to play a FW army.....so? You don't play in that particular event, sorry. Your choice.
I've TO'd many FOW events, and I hear the same excuses. Why can't my Soviets play in a Normandy themed event? Really?
It's not all events, just some.

If we're talking about a narrative themed event, thats one thing, but then we're also not talking about a run of the mill event at that point.

But anyway, yes I chose to play an FW army, how and why is that different than choosing to play Space Marines generally?

Codex Space Marines, Codex (insert specific marine supplement), Vigilus book, Space Marines FW book, FAQs, etc, etc. pretty extensive. Are you going to be annoyed if your opponent keeps asking you to show him the datasheet or strategem for a specific model from all of those sources? It's purely a book keeping issue. Each player has a single codex (and now I guess the marines have a supplement) to draw their army from. If tehy soup, the list gets even more extensive.

At every tournament I attended of late, basically everyone had a copy of everything on a tablet or phone, and having multiple books/sources is nothing new for 40k for several years and the last couple editions. Cutting out FW doesn't even relieve the worst pressure (which is the FAQ/CA stuff).

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Please, stop with the "GW writes FW rules" nonsense. It's clear to even casual observers that's not true.

Except if you try and talk to FW about rules questions, provide feedback, etc, they point you to the main studio, all the recent new stuff like the Custodes units were done by the main studio, and all the current costs were assigned by the main studio through CA, and FAQ for FW products goes through thr main studio

- They often conflict
- They often invalidate previous units entirely, thus hurting sales

This is at least as true for codex stuff as it is for FW stuff, not too much changes there with FW aside from the fact that nobody wants to update anything from the indexes.

- They were an ENTIRELY SEPARATE company until recently

FW has never been a separate company, ever. They have always been a department within GW, on GW payroll, working at GW HQ in Nottingham.

- GW only codifies the FW rules, they don't actively create them

They certainly have done so for all new units for 8E

- GW events have banned FW lists or models entirely at times. What business sense does this make to make a high cost model illegal?

Yes, in previous editions long past. Special Characters also used to be banned from competitive events and required opponent's permission to use for several editions. GW also banned Chapter Approved stuff after a couple years in 3E/4E for reasons nobody ever could quite figure out. That doesn't mean it has much relevance in 2019 8E

- GW routinely makes rules regarding new units without seeming consideration of non-GW units. See IH fiasco.

They also do this with non-FW stuff, routinely. That's how we end up with jungle fighting Catachans being the best long range artillery regiment

- GW balance is based around non-FW units being in play. See what happens when you drop a Titan into a casual or even competitive game. You get beat up.

FW != Titans, and GW has been responsible for those rules and functionality since at least the 6E Escalation/Apoc release. GW are also the ones that went out of their way to make build the game such that it allows those units in games where they have no business, when FW was solely in charge of their rules they had extensive preconditions and restrictions on their use, far more than there are now which is basically only limited by inflating their points value in CA2017.

- The GW/FW business is not listed on either of their sites, meaning they are direct competitors for sales.

No, FW is a different sales channel that sells stuff the main studio isn't interested in (e.g. Badab War, HH, Siege of Vraks, Custodes initially, etc), that can't be done in plastic, or is just an alternativr cooler model.

More to the point, go to FW or GW's websites, scroll to the bottom and you'll find links to each others sites just fine.

- GW rules cost money, whereas FW gives their's away basically for free. Downloaded PDFs. GW gives nothing away for free.

FW books cost money, they dont give everything away for free. GW also gives some stuff away for free. Neither are consistent enough in either case to really be concrete here.

 Ordana wrote:
I love seeing all these "You can't ban FW" when big tournaments scenes like the ETC have had FW banned for years, and still do.

ETC is basically the only one that I know of. None of the major US/UK or GW run events do as far as I'm aware. ETC is its own weird thing, most other events aren't team based either.

Banning Forgeworld is the wrong move imo. Not because it's pointless, but because it doesn't solve the issue. If the book or whatever is overpowered, then I say to let it dominate the competitive scene. It'll make it more obvious to Games Workshop and the onlookers what the problems armies/units are. Banning Forgeworld is usually done to limit the amount of stuff that players need to have knowledge of and prepare for. It doesn't do anything in this situation, so I would say to unban it and let it run free for now.

SeanDrake wrote:
I feel dirty saying this but tbh it’s not really an issue with GW’s rules so much that it’s the frankly terrible itc rules becoming standard that causes a lot of these issues.

If you play the game as intended with actual meaningful objectives these huge point sink terror weapons are much less of an issue if there actually an issue at all.

Sometimes I look at the outrage online and wonder if it was started by some tourney player who can see a hard counter to there current point and click list.

I disagree...ITC has literally nothing to do with this. Like I have no idea where are you are coming from? What does point and click mean and can you give me an example of an army that isn't point and click?

Darsath wrote:
Banning Forgeworld is the wrong move imo. Not because it's pointless, but because it doesn't solve the issue. If the book or whatever is overpowered, then I say to let it dominate the competitive scene. It'll make it more obvious to Games Workshop and the onlookers what the problems armies/units are. Banning Forgeworld is usually done to limit the amount of stuff that players need to have knowledge of and prepare for. It doesn't do anything in this situation, so I would say to unban it and let it run free for now.

Banning forgeworld is typically done because it will inevitably remove 80% or more of the most busted combos you can expect to find at a tournament.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
All these space marine plebs sad we won’t let them keep broken units. Oh well.

Not this one. I want all OP units fixed.

The way I see it, there's a valid argument for banning forge world from competitive play: if nobody is going to actively update the rules like ever, and standard GW rules are written without regards to their existence, then there's a lot of room for something unforseen and really broken to show up that has no chance of getting fixed because there's no review cycle for them.

Personally, as I said, I don't think it's the best solution, but I definitely see the point.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The way I see it, there's a valid argument for banning forge world from competitive play: if nobody is going to actively update the rules like ever, and standard GW rules are written without regards to their existence, then there's a lot of room for something unforseen and really broken to show up that has no chance of getting fixed because there's no review cycle for them.

Personally, as I said, I don't think it's the best solution, but I definitely see the point.

That is exactly it.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The way I see it, there's a valid argument for banning forge world from competitive play: if nobody is going to actively update the rules like ever, and standard GW rules are written without regards to their existence, then there's a lot of room for something unforseen and really broken to show up that has no chance of getting fixed because there's no review cycle for them.

Personally, as I said, I don't think it's the best solution, but I definitely see the point.

Because half of ca is fw updates?
Lmao.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
All these space marine plebs sad we won’t let them keep broken units. Oh well.

Ah yes, all these busted Space Marine... Mars Pattern Leman Russes, Earthshaker Carriage Batteries and Death Riders. Those horses must be jacked to be able to support a marine in power armour.