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So if we gave the Custodes the ability to use IH with Telemon we'd be talking about how broken the Telemon is. But we're not. We are simply talking about the Levi, because that is the specific model that was banned. Maybe this should be a poll?

I'll start one.

tneva82 wrote:

Also? GW makes the most of the broken rules. When you have some broken list dominating tournaments you can generally bet it centers around GW rules. Not FW rules.

GW is by far the worst making even remotely balanced rules.

People have INCREDIBLE faith in codexes. I'm not really sure why, but time after time people are okay with broken as long as it adheres to one of those books.

So when is the Eldar flyer spam gonna get banned at events? Hopefully more events don't follow this example.

 Sigmatron wrote:
So when is the Eldar flyer spam gonna get banned at events? Hopefully more events don't follow this example.

No because FW scurry

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Sigmatron wrote:
So when is the Eldar flyer spam gonna get banned at events? Hopefully more events don't follow this example.

No because FW scurry

Then All of FW should be banned, not a single faction target ban.

 Sigmatron wrote:
So when is the Eldar flyer spam gonna get banned at events? Hopefully more events don't follow this example.

Eldar flyers are less of an issue if your playing the actual game GW writes instead of ITC.

 Sigmatron wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Sigmatron wrote:
So when is the Eldar flyer spam gonna get banned at events? Hopefully more events don't follow this example.

No because FW scurry

Then All of FW should be banned, not a single faction target ban.

Why does the entire FW range, most of which is comically overpriced in points, need to be banned if it's just one unit (heck, they're not even banning the Leviathan, just disallowing its use with Iron Hands) that's a problem?

 Ordana wrote:

 Sigmatron wrote:
So when is the Eldar flyer spam gonna get banned at events? Hopefully more events don't follow this example.

Eldar flyers are less of an issue if your playing the actual game GW writes instead of ITC.

Few tournaments are "GW games" as apposed to ITC. So they are a problem.

 Crimson wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

However people weren't jumping up and down about nerfing a model before IronHands supliment was dropped so the leviathan pre ironhands wasnt broken by dakkas own admission.

Leviathan has been anomalously good for the whole edition. It has often been present in compettive lists, and it is usually recommended here over the codex dreads. It's just marines as a whole were so weak that it really wasn't a problem.

FWIW, the Leviathan isn't even the best Dreadnaught for its points. Even the good old Missile/Las Venerable is slightly more efficient for its points against a surprising number of targets and the Mortis variants are better than that. A pair of those will get you better output. It's big advantage basically comes down to having weaponry that's less swingy in a world of to-hit debuffs and invul saves and its "all the eggs in one basket" nature making it a better buff target.

 Sigmatron wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Sigmatron wrote:
So when is the Eldar flyer spam gonna get banned at events? Hopefully more events don't follow this example.

Eldar flyers are less of an issue if your playing the actual game GW writes instead of ITC.

Few tournaments are "GW games" as apposed to ITC. So they are a problem.

Sounds like the ITC is the problem. It is not really GWs fault if your houserules cause unintended consequences.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:

FWIW, the Leviathan isn't even the best Dreadnaught for its points. Even the good old Missile/Las Venerable is slightly more efficient for its points against a surprising number of targets and the Mortis variants are better than that. A pair of those will get you better output. It's big advantage basically comes down to having weaponry that's less swingy in a world of to-hit debuffs and invul saves and its "all the eggs in one basket" nature making it a better buff target.

But you absolutely need to consider buffability and other such factors when assessing the power of a unit.

The store now has changed from Just Levi IH Dreads, to all non LoW, FW models.

 Crimson wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:

FWIW, the Leviathan isn't even the best Dreadnaught for its points. Even the good old Missile/Las Venerable is slightly more efficient for its points against a surprising number of targets and the Mortis variants are better than that. A pair of those will get you better output. It's big advantage basically comes down to having weaponry that's less swingy in a world of to-hit debuffs and invul saves and its "all the eggs in one basket" nature making it a better buff target.

But you absolutely need to consider buffability and other such factors when assessing the power of a unit.

Absolutely; but the point of all of this is that the buffs aren't sane; regardless of what Dread you put them on.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:

FWIW, the Leviathan isn't even the best Dreadnaught for its points. Even the good old Missile/Las Venerable is slightly more efficient for its points against a surprising number of targets and the Mortis variants are better than that. A pair of those will get you better output. It's big advantage basically comes down to having weaponry that's less swingy in a world of to-hit debuffs and invul saves and its "all the eggs in one basket" nature making it a better buff target.

But you absolutely need to consider buffability and other such factors when assessing the power of a unit.

Absolutely; but the point of all of this is that the buffs aren't sane; regardless of what Dread you put them on.

Aye, even relatively bad dreads or wanna be dreads would get great with them.

Yes. I'm sure that most people agree on that IH buffs aren't sane.

 Crimson wrote:
Yes. I'm sure that most people agree on that IH buffs aren't sane.

I mean, you could run a melee Star out of decimators with them.
And melee decimators are overpriced as feth...

I'm personally hoping for some clarification and or nerfs this weekend. I've got a huge event in a couple of weeks. So far 25-40% is some form of Marines. I can only speculate that most of that is IH. As a pure Chaos Knights player, I'm scared. I've tested vs 2 different lists, neither was fun. They both crushed me.

Game needs more reason to bring melee.
Melee can hop into the leviathan+characters firebase and disrupt everything while killing the characters.
People just get upset when their 100% shooty armies have a hard time with something. Ironically those same people will be the first to tell you to “bring a more balanced army” when you complain about their unchargable hover tank perched on top of a ruin.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Game needs more reason to bring melee.
Melee can hop into the leviathan+characters firebase and disrupt everything while killing the characters.
People just get upset when their 100% shooty armies have a hard time with something. Ironically those same people will be the first to tell you to “bring a more balanced army” when you complain about their unchargable hover tank perched on top of a ruin.

How do you suggest an army with NO melee to compete may I ask?

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Game needs more reason to bring melee.
Melee can hop into the leviathan+characters firebase and disrupt everything while killing the characters.
People just get upset when their 100% shooty armies have a hard time with something. Ironically those same people will be the first to tell you to “bring a more balanced army” when you complain about their unchargable hover tank perched on top of a ruin.

One of my games vs IH was with a melee army. My bloodletter bomb was dropped to about 14 guys really quick with a 4+ overwatch. Bloodthirster also shot to shreds without trying even with 4++. There is no melee option that's good vs these lists, unless you have a way to deny overwatch. Playing Chaos, I get warp Talons...woot.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Game needs more reason to bring melee.
Melee can hop into the leviathan+characters firebase and disrupt everything while killing the characters.
People just get upset when their 100% shooty armies have a hard time with something. Ironically those same people will be the first to tell you to “bring a more balanced army” when you complain about their unchargable hover tank perched on top of a ruin.

How do you suggest an army with NO melee to compete may I ask?

Dunno, mass assault tarpiting?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chimeara wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Game needs more reason to bring melee.
Melee can hop into the leviathan+characters firebase and disrupt everything while killing the characters.
People just get upset when their 100% shooty armies have a hard time with something. Ironically those same people will be the first to tell you to “bring a more balanced army” when you complain about their unchargable hover tank perched on top of a ruin.

One of my games vs IH was with a melee army. My bloodletter bomb was dropped to about 14 guys really quick with a 4+ overwatch. Bloodthirster also shot to shreds without trying even with 4++. There is no melee option that's good vs these lists, unless you have a way to deny overwatch. Playing Chaos, I get warp Talons...woot.

You don't even need many Talons, just also recycle a big cultists blob into charge range and tarpit it afterwards.
Altough still horrendusly suboptimal against any other list.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Game needs more reason to bring melee.
Melee can hop into the leviathan+characters firebase and disrupt everything while killing the characters.
People just get upset when their 100% shooty armies have a hard time with something. Ironically those same people will be the first to tell you to “bring a more balanced army” when you complain about their unchargable hover tank perched on top of a ruin.

How do you suggest an army with NO melee to compete may I ask?

Dunno, mass assault tarpiting?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chimeara wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Game needs more reason to bring melee.
Melee can hop into the leviathan+characters firebase and disrupt everything while killing the characters.
People just get upset when their 100% shooty armies have a hard time with something. Ironically those same people will be the first to tell you to “bring a more balanced army” when you complain about their unchargable hover tank perched on top of a ruin.

One of my games vs IH was with a melee army. My bloodletter bomb was dropped to about 14 guys really quick with a 4+ overwatch. Bloodthirster also shot to shreds without trying even with 4++. There is no melee option that's good vs these lists, unless you have a way to deny overwatch. Playing Chaos, I get warp Talons...woot.

You don't even need many Talons, just also recycle a big cultists blob into charge range and tarpit it afterwards.
Altough still horrendusly suboptimal against any other list.

If only marines weren't given the ability to push deepstrikes to outside 12"....

Between omni-scrablers, Charge distance reduction on tanks and overwatch on a 4+ its beyond horrible to try and charge an IH firebase

Well then the only thing left to do is pray for first turn

Overwatch is a non issue though for host raptorial warp Talons.
Because he ain't getting any overwatch.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Game needs more reason to bring melee.
Melee can hop into the leviathan+characters firebase and disrupt everything while killing the characters.

Good luck with that!

 Crimson wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Game needs more reason to bring melee.
Melee can hop into the leviathan+characters firebase and disrupt everything while killing the characters.

Good luck with that!

Aye, the only melee that would be able to do something other then die is overwatch deniers, blobs so huge that the enemy can't kill them all and or units so tough that they shrug off even this insane ammount of firepower.

 Sigmatron wrote:
The store now has changed from Just Levi IH Dreads, to all non LoW, FW models.

So in other words no fw.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Sigmatron wrote:
The store now has changed from Just Levi IH Dreads, to all non LoW, FW models.

So in other words no fw.

Must have missed some combos then in my 70+ R&H matches.
And those damn dkok grens, i tell you so broken.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sigmatron wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Sigmatron wrote:
So when is the Eldar flyer spam gonna get banned at events? Hopefully more events don't follow this example.

Eldar flyers are less of an issue if your playing the actual game GW writes instead of ITC.

Few tournaments are "GW games" as apposed to ITC. So they are a problem.

Sounds like the ITC is the problem. It is not really GWs fault if your houserules cause unintended consequences.

Damn right.

ITC has warped everything about this game in a really bad way.

Lemondish wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Sigmatron wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Sigmatron wrote:
So when is the Eldar flyer spam gonna get banned at events? Hopefully more events don't follow this example.

Eldar flyers are less of an issue if your playing the actual game GW writes instead of ITC.

Few tournaments are "GW games" as apposed to ITC. So they are a problem.

Sounds like the ITC is the problem. It is not really GWs fault if your houserules cause unintended consequences.

Damn right.

ITC has warped everything about this game in a really bad way.

Sorry I must have missed the memo where 7 untouchable flyers with massive threat range, consistent damage and can essentially teleport across the board is only good because of ITC.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
Some friends shared this with me. I think that it's extreme, however necessary. I've played the new IH stuff with my knights. It's not even close to fun. I killed almost nothing.

When is forgeworld going to fix that model? It's beyond broken, straight unfun to play against.

Hit on 2+ reroll 1s, 4++ @T8 with 16 S8 AP-2 2 DMG shots.

Seriously.

For 300 points. You keep skipping that part very conveniently.

Firstly, I'm loath to ban anything like that as it feels like a knee jerk reaction to a problem we all see.

Secondly, just because it costs so many points isn't some promise of greatness. I don't know why you keep trotting that out as some kind of justification. I mean lets see some high point suck choices shall we ? Lets here, Land raiders, super expensive, pretty poop. Logan on storm rider, almost 200 pts, not very wonderful. Vendettas pretty poop, around 230 pts. I mean really, if we take a look at many books a great number of the units aren't very good or worth what point cost they have. Just because it costs 300 pts doesn't mean it has to be good, it should be good but then when so much is bad for its cost and it's so good its an auto include that is a huge hint of a problem.

The problem may not be that the Levi is too good, the fact may be that most other choices are just so bad. The unmistakable issue is that you need to raise up poor units, drag down OP no brainer choices and either make everything ho hum or make everything feel like an auto include. Anything less and you have balance issues that will frustrate people and force these knee jerk bans and I think we know GW love to punish FW so I might not get too used to Levis if this process continues.

As well as much as I dislike banning things because it's good, if a choice becomes a no brainer inclusion to most any list that can take it, that can't be allowed to stay as it is or you can't say you want to balance the game at all. I don't even use a levi, nor have I ever played against one but I'll be damned if I haven't learned all about it from every battle report, and online chatter about it, that tells me something. IH just twists the unit up just that touch more where as before it was a no brainer now it also buffs it out which says as much about IH. Time will tell how it shakes out but I can't imagine these IH lists are much fun to play against which also leads to people crying for bans as they get bitter or angry. Much like how people cry about guard infantry squads even though they are totally fine in a mono guard list. People are just tired of seeing them in so many lists with knights so they want them nerfed and never seen again, the levi ban is just being perhaps more honest with the intent.

This all goes back and falls at GWs feet who really need to work harder on making some level of better balance, fix the borked core rules to limit some of the abuses of the shaky system and admit they are either poor at doing this or really don't want to either way its time for honesty on their end and I for one would applaud them for being forthright, finally.

Everytime the FW ban gets touted, most of the time I end up staring at my Elysians which I pay more points for and get no regiment tactic for, and laugh. Historically speaking, FW's had a couple trouble units, but those trouble units sort of hovered around 'sort of a problem' when mainline GW balance brought forth far worse. Space Wolves having cheaper tactical equivalents with two specials, one of which was free, along with long fangs splitfiring back in 5th was only one of many problems brought upon by GW balance. Guard leafblower funnily enough happened because a bunch of once exclusive FW units that weren't played were made into GW legal units, and then promptly forgotten about come time for the late 6th edition codex to be released, taking a previously FW unit, turning it into a GW unit, and then changing it back into a FW exclusive unit.

Don't get me started on Grey Knights with S8 Autocannon dreads and S7 Assault Cannon Razorbacks. This is all one edition as well, from years ago. 6th brought ally shenanigans and taudar sauce being gross, 7th had the FW R&H artillery list be one of the big ones, alongside 'all the free things' Mechanicus and Space Marines, or Eldar shenanigans in general. Beginning of 8th brought Bobby G and the Storm Raven spam, something resolved quickly, Eldar shenanigans still existing until Ynnari got nuked this year, and Guard continuing the yo-yo trend of snapping up in strength, then down in strength, then up in strength.

The IH Leviathan is some nonsense, but its something that GW likely was made rapidly aware about and will be resolved quickly. There's a significant amount of people who play FW just for fun and because they can do more unique army builds compared to conventional GW, such as a horde of deepstriking vanilla guardsmen that cost more, or the Tau player that really likes his Hazard Suits, or the Eldar player that wants a LoW that actually has some capacity to perform.

Plus with GW writing FW rules, we got the broken phase of the FW Custodes units that got fixed with the final update, or the removal of certain problem units from the FW equation. Leviathans are just a side effect of how bonkers the IH supplement makes things though, not a symptom of 'FW Bad'