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I run IG.
I like to use the Master of Ordnance. If I have my CCS in a chimera, sitting still of course, how does LOS work for the MoO? How / where would it be figured from?
Just wondering.

Thanks

The hatch on the back of the chimera. Any point on that hatch (I think people use one of the corners usually)

The "Top Hatch" as referred to in the Chimera rules.

What constitutes the "Top Hatch" is anyone's guess, either the large or small hatch on top one would guess.

Back hatch. Just because it like firing the quote las guns even though you can fire what you want. (no you can't draw los from the guns). But the front hatch is where crew exposes them selves to get shot while holding one ARM up in the air.

I realize this is a Leman Russ, but I think it still applies with GODLYNESS' quote.

OK cool
That should help me out. I just park the chimera with good LOS in the first turn.

DeathReaper wrote:What constitutes the "Top Hatch" is anyone's guess, either the large or small hatch on top one would guess.

The big rectangular hatch at the back. Same as for Rhinos.

Nungunz wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:What constitutes the "Top Hatch" is anyone's guess, either the large or small hatch on top one would guess.

The big rectangular hatch at the back. Same as for Rhinos.

And that has a basis in the rules somewhere?

They only say top hatch. There are two hatches on the top of the Chimera that would fall under the wording of "Top Hatch"

DeathReaper wrote:

Nungunz wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:What constitutes the "Top Hatch" is anyone's guess, either the large or small hatch on top one would guess.

The big rectangular hatch at the back. Same as for Rhinos.

And that has a basis in the rules somewhere?

They only say top hatch. There are two hatches on the top of the Chimera that would fall under the wording of "Top Hatch"

DeathReaper is correct.

However, you will find that the most people play that the "top hatch" on a Chimera is the large, rectangular one for the purposes of the 5 Fire Points. Which I will admit is interesting because I have seen the vast majority of people play that one of the two hatches at the front of the Rhino are the Fire Points.

No actual RAW, but I think people assume it makes more sense due to the fact that it's where the lasguns are mounted and it's large enough to (at a stretch) allow 5 models to squeeze out and potentially fire.

Easiest solution is to just say to your opponent "Hey, my fire points are this top hatch here, ok?" He will probably change his tune when you get an extra 3" on your meltagun shots but c'est la vie.

DoW

DeathReaper wrote:

Nungunz wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:What constitutes the "Top Hatch" is anyone's guess, either the large or small hatch on top one would guess.

The big rectangular hatch at the back. Same as for Rhinos.

And that has a basis in the rules somewhere?

They only say top hatch. There are two hatches on the top of the Chimera that would fall under the wording of "Top Hatch"

Gotta go back a ways, but yes, it has a basis in the rules. There was a WD article showing fire points for all the vehicles in the game.

don_mondo wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They only say top hatch. There are two hatches on the top of the Chimera that would fall under the wording of "Top Hatch"

Gotta go back a ways, but yes, it has a basis in the rules. There was a WD article showing fire points for all the vehicles in the game.

And this WD article was published after the fifth edition rules were published?

DeathReaper wrote:They only say top hatch. There are two hatches on the top of the Chimera that would fall under the wording of "Top Hatch"

And for everyone trying to play the game as opposed to scoring points in a meaningless rules discussion, it's fairly obvious that you're not going to fit more than one guy int he cupola, and the top hatch that the passengers fire through is the hatch over the passenger compartment.

Yes, the rules should define vehicle fire points a little more clearly... but in actual practice it's not that big a deal unless someone is trying to be difficult.

insaniak wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They only say top hatch. There are two hatches on the top of the Chimera that would fall under the wording of "Top Hatch"

And for everyone trying to play the game as opposed to scoring points in a meaningless rules discussion, it's fairly obvious that you're not going to fit more than one guy int he cupola, and the top hatch that the passengers fire through is the hatch over the passenger compartment.

Yes, the rules should define vehicle fire points a little more clearly... but in actual practice it's not that big a deal unless someone is trying to be difficult.

I don't know; I've played against people who were genuinely unsure about which hatch the codex referred to, though those people tend to be easily convinced by your exact argument.

I realize that the hatch at the back on top is used for firing. I just needed how to figure LOS

don_mondo wrote:Gotta go back a ways, but yes, it has a basis in the rules. There was a WD article showing fire points for all the vehicles in the game.

Actually I believe you're talking about the 4th edition 'Wargear' book.

danpieri wrote:I realize that the hatch at the back on top is used for firing. I just needed how to figure LOS

If you already knew which hatch you were going to use then I don't understand your question.

If you are shooting from a vehicle, you draw LOS from the designated fire point. That's very clearly covered on page 66 of the rulebook. What's the problem?

DoW

DeathReaper wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They only say top hatch. There are two hatches on the top of the Chimera that would fall under the wording of "Top Hatch"

Gotta go back a ways, but yes, it has a basis in the rules. There was a WD article showing fire points for all the vehicles in the game.

And this WD article was published after the fifth edition rules were published?

Nope, but has the model changed in the last how many years? Didn't think so.

don_mondo wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They only say top hatch. There are two hatches on the top of the Chimera that would fall under the wording of "Top Hatch"

Gotta go back a ways, but yes, it has a basis in the rules. There was a WD article showing fire points for all the vehicles in the game.

And this WD article was published after the fifth edition rules were published?

Nope, but has the model changed in the last how many years? Didn't think so.

It does not matter if the model changed or not.

The rules are old. You would not use any 4th ed rules in a 5th ed game would you?

Either way, the rules state "hatch", in the singular, and there's one big hatch over the passenger compartment. I've never seen anyone in real life question it unless they were cadging for advantage.

The LOS question exists, though, only because it is physically impossible for a model to see anything shorter than the hull of a Chimera unless you use the turret hatch.

By LOS question I assume people are meaning what height do you use to check true LOS.

Personally, I eyeball it about 10 mm *above* the hatch.
But RAW I guess it should be measured from hatch itself, which is only like 1 mm above the hull in Rhino.
So by RAW you probably couldn't get LOS to anything smaller than Rhino (when at same elevation) except at extreme ranges.

Anyway, it's pretty obvious where the passenger compartment of Rhino/Chimera is and arguing that the "top hatch" is not the large one is very much WAAC.

Luide wrote:By LOS question I assume people are meaning what height do you use to check true LOS.

Personally, I eyeball it about 10 mm *above* the hatch.
But RAW I guess it should be measured from hatch itself, which is only like 1 mm above the hull in Rhino.
So by RAW you probably couldn't get LOS to anything smaller than Rhino (when at same elevation) except at extreme ranges.

Anyway, it's pretty obvious where the passenger compartment of Rhino/Chimera is and arguing that the "top hatch" is not the large one is very much WAAC.

I agree with your method for the LOS from the back hatch. RAW does basically mean it's useless to use a Chimera as a firebase unless you park it on a hillside or you're shooting at a Valkyrie. On that note, do you take the turret into your LOS considerations or no?

This being said, I don't agree with your sentiment towards using the forward hatch as being WAAC. It wouldn't be unreasonable to have a player simply assume that top hatch meant the hatch at the front (i.e. the cupola). Plus it's logical from a fluff-perspective that, as a gunner, you would not only choose the most forward firing point in a vehicle (especially if your weapon is short ranged like a Meltagun) but that you would choose the hatch that would render your vehicle the least vulnerable.

And, considering there is no official, current ruling for which hatch constitutes the "top hatch," there is no actual rules basis for determining that the passenger compartment must be the correct hatch.

Also, and this is not necessarily directed towards you, but I kinda feel that WAAC, TFG, and Cheater are terms that are thrown out a little too liberally nowadays. You get to the point when you can really start spoiling the game for people if any mistake or conversion they might make is suddenly considered WAAC.

(For the record, I use the passenger compartment hatch for my Chimeras' fire point but I wouldn't necessarily force someone else to use it.)

DoW

Ghaz wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Gotta go back a ways, but yes, it has a basis in the rules. There was a WD article showing fire points for all the vehicles in the game.

Actually I believe you're talking about the 4th edition 'Wargear' book.

Actually it was a Chapter Approved article in WD, later collected into one of the CA Books. The Article introduced firing points, and covered (Afaik) every closed top transport in existence today with the exception of Valkyries and Storm Ravens.

DogOfWar wrote: It wouldn't be unreasonable to have a player simply assume that top hatch meant the hatch at the front (i.e. the cupola). Plus it's logical from a fluff-perspective that, as a gunner, you would not only choose the most forward firing point in a vehicle (especially if your weapon is short ranged like a Meltagun) but that you would choose the hatch that would render your vehicle the least vulnerable.

Absolutely. Which is why I maintain the view that it is perfectly acceptable for a player to use the cupola as the Chimera's firepoint... so long as he actually models 5 guys jammed into it.

Surely that only applies if he tries to fire multiple weapons from it. In the OP's case I see no problem with the MOO using the turret hatch to spot from.

That and it should be remembered that the shooting phase isn't an instant in time where everyone decides to stop and open fire, but a representation of a period of time over which weapons are fired. Perfectly plausible for a few different guys to use a single hatch if they have weapons that need time to recharge. Maybe one guy sits in the turret hatch and fires the weapons while his mates down below feed him reloads.

insaniak wrote:

DogOfWar wrote: It wouldn't be unreasonable to have a player simply assume that top hatch meant the hatch at the front (i.e. the cupola). Plus it's logical from a fluff-perspective that, as a gunner, you would not only choose the most forward firing point in a vehicle (especially if your weapon is short ranged like a Meltagun) but that you would choose the hatch that would render your vehicle the least vulnerable.

Absolutely. Which is why I maintain the view that it is perfectly acceptable for a player to use the cupola as the Chimera's firepoint... so long as he actually models 5 guys jammed into it.

Model 10 Space Marines in a Rhino and we'll call it a deal!

No removing the backpacks either, that wouldn't be realistic.

DoW

Flinty wrote:Surely that only applies if he tries to fire multiple weapons from it. In the OP's case I see no problem with the MOO using the turret hatch to spot from

It would also apply if you wanted the Chimera to fire it's multi-laser.

Flinty wrote:That and it should be remembered that the shooting phase isn't an instant in time where everyone decides to stop and open fire, but a representation of a period of time over which weapons are fired.

Sure... but it's a representation of a couple of seconds, no more.

Perfectly plausible for a few different guys to use a single hatch if they have weapons that need time to recharge. Maybe one guy sits in the turret hatch and fires the weapons while his mates down below feed him reloads.

By that logic, all of the passengers should be able to fire. And you wouldn't have a different number being able to fire from a Chimera as opposed to a rhino...

Haven't we had a discussion about applying logic to this game before?

After all, if we're going for ultimate realism, the Chimera should have six firepoints that can only fire lasguns. Or it should only have 2, because that's how many the similar-sized hatch on the Rhino gets.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Haven't we had a discussion about applying logic to this game before?

After all, if we're going for ultimate realism, the Chimera should have six firepoints that can only fire lasguns. Or it should only have 2, because that's how many the similar-sized hatch on the Rhino gets.

Third option also exists: 8. Six that can only fire lasguns and two that can fire whatever. Though you'll be hard pressed to find target that can be shot by more than half of the lasguns (3). Which leads us to number 5...
Anyway, it was really, really bad call by GW to give it 5 firepoints. Should have given it two and special rule that allows one to shoot lasguns with embarked unit.