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Hello, two quick questions!

1.) Can you use a Spot Light to spot the Harlies for everyone else. (No right?)

2.) Can you not target them with indirect fire from 24"+ since you cannot see them? (I have seen people say this in videos featuring a Harlequin style army)

Not sure how a spotlight works in this as it only effects night fighting.
That being said, I am almost 100% sure you can still indirect them as you dont need LOS for indirect.

The codex does not list the ability as night-fighting, so you may not use anything that deals with night-fighting to bypass the rule

Barrage weapons or anything else that doesn't require LOS can hit harlequins without needing sight.

Thanks guys, I thought that the second one seemed a bit odd, guess I'll really have to watch out for those.

As for the first one, I appreciate it, helps a ton!

Both questions are covered in the FAQ.
Here they are, to save some time.

Q. Do barrage weapons have to roll to spot a unit of
Harlequins with Veil of Tears? (p48)
A. Yes, barrage weapons must still roll to spot them,
and cannot fire if they fail to spot them.

Q. Do searchlights work on units of Harlequins with
Veil of Tears? (p48)
A. No, they only work for night fighting.

I would say no to both cases. With indirect fire, you must still be in range of the gun, just line of sight is not needed. With the Veil of Tears power, your range to fire is limited to 2d6x2. If you are not in range, you cannot fire.

Wow! Awesome guys, I haven't checked out the FAQ, I appreciate the corrections, that helps a lot with my faith in the army.

Harlies are a lot more ag than I think people give them credit for..

DX Nin wrote:Harlies are a lot more ag than I think people give them credit for..

Regardless of their ability to be spotted, remember taht they are merely T3 with a 5++ save. At 250ish points for a full unit they are far from "good" for their point cost.

i realize they may be overpriced for their T and Save, but from what I've used them, they are quite devastating, being able to wipe a Tac Squad on the charge with some help form the dice.

Don't forget about furious charge, hit and run, ignores difficult terrain, pinning from 24" (outside edge of spotting range) and rending CC with 4-5 attacks on the charge. Not to mention fusion pistols. Quins are a fantastic cleanup crew after a bit of ShuriCannon/EML/scatter laser spam. If you have a farseer (should) your 5+ is closer to a 4+ and you could be re-rolling your wounds in cc (more chance for rending...)

Can they do everything? ..No. They would need their share of dakka support from other units, sure. But they are certainly comparable to a unit of aspect elites with their phoenix lord attached imo. More than worth the 250 points... That's like, 5 pts per model counting your average 200 pts lord.

I use 3 squads of them in my Harlequin list and their fantastic, most people underestimate them. With support from Eldrad and a second Farseer they are able to do lot of damage after the Wraithlords and Pathfinders target the nasty stuff.

Getting off topic, but #1 an aspect unit with their Phoenix lord is garbage, because the phoenix lords are garbage. #2. Eldrad or a Farseer attached to a Harliquin squad actually hinders it performance since hit and run + ignore difficult terrain are lost. With Eldrad even Fleet is lost.

All it takes is a single droppod or deepstrike unit to wipe them out with bolterfire. IF you assault something with doom on the target tehy will make a mess of it. The issue is nowadays actually getting there since some many things can move fast enough to get in range and gun them down.

Harliquins, Wraithlords, wraithguard, and Pathfinders have all seen their glory days pass. There is a reason they are not considered competitive anymore.

BlueDagger wrote:Getting off topic, but #1 an aspect unit with their Phoenix lord is garbage, because the phoenix lords are garbage. #2. Eldrad or a Farseer attached to a Harliquin squad actually hinders it performance since hit and run + ignore difficult terrain are lost. With Eldrad even Fleet is lost.

All it takes is a single droppod or deepstrike unit to wipe them out with bolterfire. IF you assault something with doom on the target tehy will make a mess of it. The issue is nowadays actually getting there since some many things can move fast enough to get in range and gun them down.

Harliquins, Wraithlords, wraithguard, and Pathfinders have all seen their glory days pass. There is a reason they are not considered competitive anymore.

No one said the farseer was attached.. And frankly anyone who wants to drop or DS that close just to try to wipe one unit of Quins can happily get splattered by the other unit of Quins (or scorps or banshees, take your pick) waiting not too far off.

Eldar is an army that supports itself. If I was foolish enough to field a unit of any kind by itself with no support then I deserve to have it get tabled in one turn.

And I'll concede to a point. Half of the Lords are garbage. I think if you seriously consider what it is they do, you'll find that a few of those guys are very useful. There's a reason the players at my local GW hate Jain Zar, Karandras, and Mugan Ra. But like you said. Off topic..

DX Nin wrote:There's a reason the players at my local GW hate Jain Zar, Karandras, and Mugan Ra. But like you said. Off topic..

You mean the only good Phoenix Lords?

The point is, a blanket statement like, "The Phoenix Lords are garbage," can only be made with minimal forethought.

Maugen Ra + Harlies are not garbage! They have so many special rules between them you would struggle to remember them all!!

As a side note with the Lords, consider Maugen Ra with
WS 7 BS 7 STR 4(6) T 4 INIT High! W 3 (+eternal warrior) and the rest! There aren't many units in the game he can't mano-mano with!! Well worth his points IMO.

neilvicks wrote:Maugen Ra + Harlies are not garbage! They have so many special rules between them you would struggle to remember them all!!

As a side note with the Lords, consider Maugen Ra with
WS 7 BS 7 STR 4(6) T 4 INIT High! W 3 (+eternal warrior) and the rest! There aren't many units in the game he can't mano-mano with!! Well worth his points IMO.

With the minor annoyance that he dies... a lot... to that pesky Sargent with a PW...

You mean the Powerfist that cannot cause Instant Death to him?

Sorry to keep their horse beating going, but young eldar player/non-competitve eldar players need to realise that yes, for their point cost ALL Phoenix lords are Garbage.

Maugan Ra + Harlies = 445pts and the vast majority of it will fall over if shots get within range. Compare this now to a unit of 10 Warlocks on Jetbikes at 450. Which is going to be killing more stuff?

Jain Zar 190pts. If taken with Banshee you ahve a good CC unit... that suffers the same issue as all other CC units. For 160pts you get a nightspinner with holofields and spiritstones. TL Large blast with rending + Dangerous terrain test barrage from 72" away. 30pts less and a LOT more resilient.

Karandras 215pts. For that cost you have to compare him to Eldrad at 210pts... yeah. He's got 6-7 attacks with a powerfist which is great, but not 215pts great since there is really no good unit for him to roll with. Solo he'll get shot to heck, with a unit of scorps they slow him down and become a liability, in a transport you have the same ol CC struggles.

If you are playing in a FLGS with foot eldar vs foot space marines, then yes these choices are "good". If you are playing in a competitive tournament you will need some serious lucky dice to see even the top 25%.

Competitive gaming is always the same units fighting each other anyway. I don't see how PL any less of a point sink than other IC's in the game. Eldrad would never kill as many units as Karandras and if it's a KP mission that can make a lot of difference. Karandras by himself can survive remarkably well. If he doesn't take at least one unit with him he's not been used properly.

My position on this is that Eldar rely on synergy between units, although Eldrad and the Farseer wont kill near as much as the PL. My whole army is less powerful without them due to the lack of buffs.

BlueDagger wrote:Sorry to keep their horse beating going, but young eldar player/non-competitve eldar players need to realise that yes, for their point cost ALL Phoenix lords are Garbage.

Maugan Ra + Harlies = 445pts and the vast majority of it will fall over if shots get within range. Compare this now to a unit of 10 Warlocks on Jetbikes at 450. Which is going to be killing more stuff?

Jain Zar 190pts. If taken with Banshee you ahve a good CC unit... that suffers the same issue as all other CC units. For 160pts you get a nightspinner with holofields and spiritstones. TL Large blast with rending + Dangerous terrain test barrage from 72" away. 30pts less and a LOT more resilient.

Karandras 215pts. For that cost you have to compare him to Eldrad at 210pts... yeah. He's got 6-7 attacks with a powerfist which is great, but not 215pts great since there is really no good unit for him to roll with. Solo he'll get shot to heck, with a unit of scorps they slow him down and become a liability, in a transport you have the same ol CC struggles.

If you are playing in a FLGS with foot eldar vs foot space marines, then yes these choices are "good". If you are playing in a competitive tournament you will need some serious lucky dice to see even the top 25%.

Yeah. See... There's two posters below you that get it... and as a "vet" Eldar player, you shouldn't need to be reminded that the Eldar are a synergistic army. OF COURSE if you field M-Ra + Harlies by themselves they will get torn to pieces. That's why you have farseers... and mech with EML or Bright Lances... You Never Ever Ever EVER solo your units with Eldar. Always play to the unit's strength and ALWAYS play units in tandem.

Obviously at lower points games, the Phoenix Lords are going to be priced out. But at 1500-2000+..? I'll take em all day every day if I think they will have a use against my opponent (and I'd probably only turn them down against tank spam... except maybe Fuegan). Those three have turned the tides for me more times than I can count. (probably because people ignore them, writing them off as "garbage" )

Now, I'm not saying your alternatives are bad per se, they're certainly viable although the nightspinner would be irrelevant as it serves a completely different purpose than Jain Zar... What I don't understand is your allusion to the "same ol CC struggles." <~~ what exactly are you referring to?

Can night fighting work around this rule?

It states that if you do not spot them, you can still fire but roll and extra d6 for scatter.

So the Necrons that can keep night out can use indirect fire to still target them.

Again, from the FAQ:

Q. How does Veil of Tears work in a turn where the
night fighting rules are in effect? (p48)
A. If a unit wishes to target the Harlequins, first roll for
night fighting. If the roll is successful, then roll for Veil
of Tears. Only if this second test is also successful, the
unit can open fire.

MJThurston wrote:Can night fighting work around this rule?

It states that if you do not spot them, you can still fire but roll and extra d6 for scatter.

So the Necrons that can keep night out can use indirect fire to still target them.

No

This rule is NOT night fight

If you wish to target them, which any unit shooting (usually) has to do, even indirect fire weapons, then if you are not within 2D6x2 you do not fire
End of.

BlueDagger wrote:Harliquins, Wraithlords, wraithguard, and Pathfinders have all seen their glory days pass. There is a reason they are not considered competitive anymore.

Ignore this statement kids. Absolute 100% rubbish.

Yeah I'm tempted to believe BlueDagger is just trolling. Anyone who actually understands Eldar would not say that... Particularly about Quins and Pathfinders..

In the sake of teaching I will continue this debate.

@neilvicks: Eldrad is drastically more powerful then Karadras for the simple fact his save. 2+ armor with T4 is not impressive by today's standard, but a double 3+ invul is EXTREMELY powerful. With power weapons given out like candy Karadras is extremely overcosted without an invul save... which pretty much all 200+pt IC models have nowadays.

@DX: Obviously Eldar needs synergy and I don't need to be reminded of that. However when a 150ish pt dread drops in and slaughters your 450ish point unit of harliquins, that has absolutely nothing to do with synergy. It has to do with a critical flaw in the unit of survivability vs point cost. Jain's job is to kill 2-3+ armor targets, so is the nightspinner's. While it can be effective at killing line troops, Doom + a nightspinner is devastating against MEQ and termies. "Same ol CC issues" comes from the fact that without Assault vehicles eldar foot CC have no viable way to get into CC. A smart opponent will notice you parking you serpent in range and either A) assault it to block the back hatch or B) move out of range from the impending assault. There is ways to manipulate this but it comes down to the fact that is extremely difficult to get into CC reliably.

@liam0404: Harliquins = Die to a light breeze. At their point cost that is unacceptable. Wraithguard and Wraithlords = with the resurgence of Dark Eldar these are no longer viable in an all comers list. Poison weaponry obliterates them. Pathfinders = Stationary targets that can be caught by the piles of deepstrike and fast untis out there. For their point cost a 2+ cover save is awesome, however given sniper rifle's abysmal rules they are largely ineffective in the current meta. They can sit on a target, until even an IG guardsman comes over an punches them in the head.


What does work = Mech. 5-6 Serpents, 3 heavy tanks.

BlueDagger wrote:What does work = Mech. 5-6 Serpents, 3 heavy tanks.

Quick, someone tell Reecius!