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So, finished the Primarchs a few weeks ago, and was just reminded to start this. I thought it was pretty terrible. It filled in a few gaps in the story, but generally I thought it was written pretty badly, and the stories were there to 'fill us in' rather than as stories in their own right.

I'm usually a fan of Graham McNeill's writing, but this first story plotted along at a pedestrian rate. Even the twist at the end was a bit of a cop out - I felt like the whole story was there just to iron out a plot element that had been flagged as proving a bit difficult. So, Fulgrim is actually evil. I found the idea of a possessed Primarch with no control over his actions much more interesting.

The Iron Hands story did a good job of fleshing them out (arf!) and generally was one of the better written ones. However, I find the plot of 'Eldar-tried-to-warn-them' a bit old by now, being that we've seen this story twice before with Fulgrim and Alpharius. And Ferrus Manus is probably the least likely primarch for that to work on. However, I think the story did a good job of differentiating the Iron Hands from other 'solid' legions like the Death Guard, Iron Warriors and Salamanders. My worry is that there will be no more Iron Hands in the series - it feels like a story of this length is just enough to give them a token appearance, and that's all we're gonna see.

Gav Thorpe continues his run of thoroughly trashing the writing quality of BL (after the awful Deliverance Lost) by writing a boy's own adventure story about how the Lion seemingly has nothing to do all Heresy but run around on emergency missions to save really powerful technology. Hasn't this been done before as well? Anyway, the Lion comes out as the fluff had said for years - like he doesn't care about either side and flaps around pursuing his own agendas all Heresy until he knows who is going to win. Now this COULD precipitate a really cool twist where it turns out that the Lion is traitor and Luther and the Fallen were loyal all along, but somehow I doubt BL will go down that route...

And finally, another 'save the priceless technology' story from the Alpha Legion, who have also dropped a bit in my eyes post-Legion by some bad follow-ups and writing (yeah, you again Gav Thorpe). Since Legion, the stories of Omegon's nefarious planning is getting old, and this, while interestingly written, still came off as a bit of a pointless aside. We didn't learn anything about the Alphas that we didn't already know, and I think this slot could have been used a bit better - by giving it the Iron Warriors, or White Scars or something...

Filler.

Funny, it seems people either love Delieverance Lost or hate it (most people I know love it)

I haave no opinion on this book yet, I havnt started it

I was over the moon when I heard about a new HH book called the primarchs.

The stories were ok I suppose it I agree with arbitorlan on most of what he said.

Fulgrim story


Ferrus Mannus


Lion


Omegon


Anyway, not much of a discussion just my thoughts. Feel free to pick.

Garviel

I found i really liked the first one about fulgrim as have been wondering aout lucius since the end of fulgim.

The Iron Hand story started good but got abit boring nce Furrus got kidnapped.

Hate the Lion as he seams to think that Guilliman is a bigger traitor than Horus. The bit about typhon was good though.

The alpha legion one I thought was quite cool but wasn't quiet as good as when they had a whole book to themselves.

I don't think the Fulgrim story really changed things altogether, nor do I think it was particularly good to be honest. I can't really understand why they changed it so Fulgrim is no longer possessed and I think it was quite a neat plot, but ultimately I don't think having him as not possessed will really change much; he'll still follow Horus, he'll still be evil and he'll still become a Daemon Primarch which may in itself require some level of possession.
Infact, if becoming a Daemon Primarch requires a level of possession, then the story will be even more tragic; "Hey guys, look I'm not longer possesse--- oh no..."
And then there's the conspiracy theory (that may get clarified later on, who knows) that he's still possessed and the Daemon and Lucius are playing shenanigans with the Emperors Children.
I'm more interested to know what the Angel Exterminatus will be, but then again I don't want more non-vital stuff being added to the HH series.

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I think for me, the less said about the Ferrus story the better. Again, it didn't really change anything and I really can't get along with Nick Kyme's writing style (in any of his novels), whereas I don't have a problem with Gav's, despite being on the lookout for it...
I found myself skipping large sections of the Iron Hands novel, only interested in what actually happened to Ferrus, but ultimately all the story really told me was that:
Ferrus is a tool, the Eldar are tools (although I actually like the Eldar) and the Iron Hands are tools.
I thought this was easily the weakest story in the book and wasn't really worth reading. I do think the Iron Hands will get some sporadic love throughout the series (such as working for Guilliman - the Lion story), but I would also understand if they didn't as ultimately they didn't play a big role in the HH, but I would expect BL to change this somewhat, don't worry.

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I actually liked the Lion story. Although, with that and the AL one, the idea of new and really powerful xenos tech was a bit I agree.
Again, I didn't mind Gav's writing style, despite being on the lookout for it being bad after previous peoples comments.
I also disagree with your interpretation of the Lion as sitting back and watching things play out. He seems to display his support for the Emperor and complete dislike for Chaos (so it seems pretty definite that Luther is the traitor) and basically seems to state that he thinks the Emperor is the only guy right to lead humanity, not Horus and not Guilliman. I think the Lion pretty much flat-out stated this didn't he?
I think the impression given from the various Lion novels so far is that he knows he's unable to reach Terra, so is trying to keep what remains of his fathers Empire loyal, so there will be something of the Imperium left after the heresy. He might also be hoping that Horus and Guilliman might see the error of their ways, not knowing quite how far gone Horus is. He definitely doesn't seem to be waiting around to see who the winner this - although Curze said to him that this is how he'd be seen after the Heresy - but rather trying to keep the Imperium intact. He didn't seem to support Guilliman's plans for an Imperial Secondus/Second Imperium, so it could be interesting to see why he's going to see Guilliman.

I previously thought the Lion was a giant tool, but between this and AD-B's Savage Weapons short story, I'm liking the guy. In comparison to Ferrus who remains for me, a giant tool.
IIRC I read somewhere before that AD-B basically touted the Lion as his favourite Primarch and arguably the strongest; that Chaos tried to tempt him from an early age (Caliban's exposure, Argel Tal(?)'s dream of the traitor Primarchs including the Lion), but despite this he remained resolute and loyal to the Emperor and despising of Chaos. However, Chaos still gets one over on him by turning half his Legion and making him look like a traitor, which is somewhat 'tragic' for the guy who did nothing but turn away from Chaos.

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As far as I and others on the BL News and Rumours Thread (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/510/427644.page) could tell, the Alpha Legion story seems to be implying a division in the Alpha Legion, between Omegon and Alpharius; so it could actually be far from pointless as a story. I would quite like this direction with the Legion to be honest, it always surprised me A) how much Alpharius and Omegon agreed on things & thought so alike, when all their brothers are at each others throats etc. and B) that Alpharius seems like the overall head honcho, despite them being twins. If this direction is taken, it could also explain inconsistencies with the portrayal of the modern Alpha Legion.
The big thing that we on the BL N&R thread couldn't really understand was the significance of the other suit of armour at the end of the novel.

On a final note: I also liked how - despite Alpharius and Omegon seemingly being slightly inferior to their brothers, physically, due to the 'shared resources'/twins part - the abilities of a Primarch was kept consistent; when 'Omegon' was shot in the stomach, I thought it was strange how much of an injury it caused considering the previous descriptions of Primarchs suffering inordinate amount of damage. This raised my suspicions as to who 'Omegon' was, so i was relieved when it turned out to be Ranko (though I didn't like that he died, particularly due to his role within the Legion) - it was nice to see consistency portrayed in the abilities of primarchs here.


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Garviel wrote:

Spoiler:

Was it a necron pylon they were after? I almost sure it is but you never know with GW.

Anyway, not much of a discussion just my thoughts. Feel free to pick.

Garviel

I can't imagine so as it interfered/manipulated with the Warp, something Necrons usually steer well away from. Necron pylons seem to calm the warp rather than anger it.

Wasn't the heresy more awesome when we didn't know as much about it

I've loved much of the HH series, but after a couple of duff and meandering novels, I'm starting to get that feeling too!

I'd rather they kept to the core of the HH rather than adding more and more side stories, such as Nemesis, but that they're fleshing out Guilliman's actions for example is great IMHO.

SPOILER!!

It was indeed a necron pylon, however a human build one, here is how we know it as fact

Eisenhorn: Quixos studied the pylons and started to build his own useing the same or similar materials, it is activated (by humans, not sure how crons do it) by psykers being sacrificed or some such, these psykers must be alpha level at the very least

Primarhs: psykers are being used to activate the pylon, hence why they are there in the 1st place, the materials being used, size and desciption match the eisenhorn desciptions

General: all the effects of the pylon match the necrons desciptions of the effects of the pylons on the warp

Opinion: im suprised no one has commented on the nice info on the Demiurg

I liked Fulgrim, but Legion was pretty boring.

Good write ups, stops me from having to waste some cash... Ill just pick up the other hh books I missed

Just Dave wrote:I've loved much of the HH series, but after a couple of duff and meandering novels, I'm starting to get that feeling too!

I'd rather they kept to the core of the HH rather than adding more and more side stories, such as Nemesis, but that they're fleshing out Guilliman's actions for example is great IMHO.

As have I. It's just that the Heresy was supposed to be such a massive thing, how do you translate that into a number of books, I was worried about it when they announced the series. It's the darkest time of the Imperium with the legendary Emperor and Primarchs walking with their Legions and a lot of the time it all feels a little ... tiny, shallow and half arsed.

I'm a little disappoint I guess, I was expecting awesomeness throughout, you know, due to it being one of the major events in the history of the Imperium. Something that the Black Library and Games Workshop could take pride in and place on a Golden Pedestal, rather than it being the cash cow that it is rapidly becoming.

I think you're setting your standards for what is basically pulp fiction a little too high.

Yes, we're told, in M41, that the Heresy was a time of mythic proportions, with planet-shattering battles and the God-Emperor Himself descending on golden wings and slaying His traitorous son and blahblahblah... you know the thing about myths? They grow in the telling, and often leave out the warts on the noses of the people who actually took part in the actions described.

For the playerbase, it's much the same thing. It's been mythical for so long, it's been built up to an unattainable level in people's minds that a series of novels, no matter how many of them there are, simply cannot hope to meet.

Plus, we already know how it ends.

Psienesis wrote:I think you're setting your standards for what is basically pulp fiction a little too high.

Yes, we're told, in M41, that the Heresy was a time of mythic proportions, with planet-shattering battles and the God-Emperor Himself descending on golden wings and slaying His traitorous son and blahblahblah... you know the thing about myths? They grow in the telling, and often leave out the warts on the noses of the people who actually took part in the actions described.

For the playerbase, it's much the same thing. It's been mythical for so long, it's been built up to an unattainable level in people's minds that a series of novels, no matter how many of them there are, simply cannot hope to meet.

Like I said, I was worried about the series from the offset and felt that perhaps it should have been left as the myth and with what little details we have. Am I wrong for having a high expectation for the telling of this universe altering event. No, I don't think so. But you are right, we've had it for a very long time with very little, which means lots of time for the fans to build their own grand ideas of what happened. This is why I felt like they should leave it, steeped in mystery and the shadows of a forgotten age.

By the by, I did say that I am enjoying the series for the most part

Psienesis wrote:Plus, we already know how it ends.

Why would that make any difference? We already knew what happens at the start and the middle as well, the rest is just filler.

I thought the Fulgrim story was interesting, but I too thought the end was a little lame. Even if it turns out he was just pretending to still be Fulgrim.

The Lion was decent. The Iron Hands story wasn't bad either, but again, like the sentiment has been made, a lot of these stories seem shallow and unimportant. It was a book full of filler.

As far as the Iron Hands go, they just arent important. They are a unique Chapter with some fun fluff for players to work with. But the Iron Hands Legion was not important to the Heresy. They get slaughtered, and their Primarch dies. That is really all they do. These kinds of stories needed to be weaved into a core book. Since Ferrus has already died in the timeline progression books, can't help but feel like revisiting him is filler. I know Iron Hands fans would like to see more of them, but they chose a bad Legion to be a fan of if that is the case, lol.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Psienesis wrote:I think you're setting your standards for what is basically pulp fiction a little too high.

Yes, we're told, in M41, that the Heresy was a time of mythic proportions, with planet-shattering battles and the God-Emperor Himself descending on golden wings and slaying His traitorous son and blahblahblah... you know the thing about myths? They grow in the telling, and often leave out the warts on the noses of the people who actually took part in the actions described.

For the playerbase, it's much the same thing. It's been mythical for so long, it's been built up to an unattainable level in people's minds that a series of novels, no matter how many of them there are, simply cannot hope to meet.

Like I said, I was worried about the series from the offset and felt that perhaps it should have been left as the myth and with what little details we have. Am I wrong for having a high expectation for the telling of this universe altering event. No, I don't think so. But you are right, we've had it for a very long time with very little, which means lots of time for the fans to build their own grand ideas of what happened. This is why I felt like they should leave it, steeped in mystery and the shadows of a forgotten age.

By the by, I did say that I am enjoying the series for the most part

I loved the first 5 books in the series, but then things started to get a bit worse but the stories were still good, this was the first one that didn't feel like if you don't read it things don't make sense.

I personaly hate the 6th and 11th books. The first dark angle one started of well enough until the emperor turned up and the next one bored me to hell, just not a fan of the dark angels.

A Thousand Sons has to be my favourite book though just because it does fill in the mystery of what Mangnus is up to in the rest of the books.

To be fair actually, there's only been a single HH novel I've disliked, whilst there's been several 'meh' ones. I've think I've just become somewhat disenfranchised with the series after a few duff novels and a lack of stand-out books for so long.

Prospero Burns was the last novel I really liked and that was a year and a half ago. I've found the novels since then to be a bit meddling or 'meh'. Know No Fear was good, but underwhelming for me.
Battle for the Abyss was the only novel I actively disliked.

As I said, most of the series has been really good in retrospect, I think I've just become a bit disheartened with the lack of stand-out novels for so long.

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ArbitorIan, if you think BL have had a run of awful, then I'd fully recommend Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Night Lords series if you haven't read it already.

Well, to be fair, if you liked Battle for the Abyss, there is probably something wrong with you, lol. Sadly, that was the first one I read when I came back to 40K and it nearly turned me off to the whole series. I don't think it has even a shred of value as a book.

battle of the abyss had merits, a world eater...um....um..thats it really.

the way i think of it is this, the first 2 books are Sci-fi novels, up there in my opinion with Dune (yeah i said it), all of the following (cept for thousand sons and fulgrim, legion) are pulp sci-fi.

I enjoyed every book on its own merits, and i loved the Dark Angel ones, as i got to see Caliban (a world straight out of jabberwocky) and how the planet shaped Jonson and his legion, we find out that no matter what, the Dark Angels are touched by Chaos, it will always be part of them, it adds to the irony of when Caliban falls, that all Dark Angels are actually "fallen"

in short, you get from a book whatever you put into it