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I'm considering a 1.5k Necron army (considering being the operative word) and the main troops choice in it is a block of 10 Immortals, with an attached Veiltek and Phaeron with a scythe, MSS (in case of combats), Weave (to soak up AP3 or spare wounds) and a Res Orb (because getting up on 4s is significantly better than 5s).

I watched a game on Thursday with Necrons against GKs, and having Immortals bouncing across the table seemed incredibly fun (albeit it was a Nemesor/Vargard unit, so could veil out of combats), so I want to try it out, the only thing is that, in order to keep the unit functional (deep-strike formations are nice targets for AP3 blasts and the like) I had to add an Orb, and that came with downsides, the main one being that an orblord would require a second Overlord to start with, and why spend an extra 65pts on something when what I bought to allow me to get it can do the same job?

And so my unit currently consists of:
10 Immortals
1 Pulsetek
1 Veiltek
1 Phaeron w/ Warscythe, MSS, Weave, ResOrb

My only questions is this: What weapons should the Immortals carry?

I could strip the Lord's Phaeron status and save 20pts if i'm going with Tesla, but then again, relentless Gauss Blasters don't sound too bad for only 20pts. With the veil, I could appear next to a vehicle and glance it to death with rapid-firing Gauss regardless of AV value. I could also hit small units with rapid-firing S5, since it's more reliable than Tesla hits-wise (rapid firing gauss would grab 13 (13.3) hits, and Tesla 7 (6.6), so 3 of those 7 hits would need to be sixes in order to match the firepower of Gauss).

Telsa beats Gauss outside RF though, and I doubt I could land within 12" of everything I wanted to every time. There's also the fact that against some things, I will want to stay outside RF range (Terminators, for example, since I know how easy it is to throw buckets of shots at them, force loads of saves, and kill none, or a single one, and if they reach combat then there's no way i'm breaking through that 2+ save, especially if my Overlord is nuked before he can warscythe them and/or MSS doesn't have any effect) so Tesla could come in handy there, getting the same amount of shots as Gauss with potential for more (statistically getting at least 2 extra hits too).

I'm obviously a bit stuck on this one, and I won't be able to magnetise anything since I can barely GS gaps, nevermind drill out small chunks and make it look natural. What's the general consensus here?

From what I have seen on the tabletop from local 'crons players, I'm going to throw my hat in for the Tesla.

For one, saves points. Always a good thing, even if it's only 20 points. Two, more shots at the full range. Three, the difference the number of hits gauss gets in RF range and tesla gets all the time isn't majorly different. Out of your 10 shots 2 (1.6~) of them will, on average, be 6's to give you those additional hits. Which makes the difference only 2 shots in the Gauss blaster's favor in RF range. There's another factor here that people don't talk enough about, and that's the potential damage. While I won't tell you to build your battle-plan on what might happen, there is always the potential for the Tesla to perform supremely and perform well and above the Gauss Blasters. The flip side of this of course, the dice can fail as well as they can succeed.

However, there is always the chance for you to roll 5 6's. And this is at the full range, not just limited to 'hey you can charge my face if you want' range.

The Gauss Blaster does perform better glancing vehicles when in rapid fire range and/or when hitting AV 12+

Although if you're bouncing about with a veil, why are you shooting into their front armor? Go for the side or rear armor if you can manage it, where it's much more likely to be AV 10-11.

To your points:

1) Yes, it saves 20pts, but I have nothing that can benefit from those 20pts save scarabs (adding a single base and having 5 unusable points left over, thanks to nothing costing 5pts in my army that I haven't already bought) or warriors (adding a single warrior, then same predicament as 5pts leftover, but with an even more odd value of 7).

2) 'Potential' for more shots at full range. I should roll about 1-2 6s, but should =/= will.

3) The difference is more like 3-4, which is at least 2 more wounds on T4 than Tesla.

4) I already know potential damage, but the chances that I will roll a huge amount of sixes is so small that basing ym army around it isn't viable.

With veil bouncing, a lot of vehicles will have vulnerable sides close to mishap points, like the board edge, impassable terrain, or other units. Of course i'd go for side or rear if presented with the option, but i've outflanked things enough times to know that against a good player you should never assume rear armour, so again it's likely to be more of a liability if I take tesla and assume rear against all vehicles.

I would go for gauss:

- veiling gives you a better chance at getting into a position to strip cover from your target, allowing the AP4 to do it's job.
- while you are not going to always land within 12", you've got a pretty decent chance of doing so, meaning you can use the far more effective rapid fire.
- gauss gives you better options against vehicles with both the gauss rule and not taking a hit from AP- (meaning glancing hits against open-topped vehicles actually have a chance to wreck them)

Depends on how you plan to use the Immortals. I plan to go with Tesla on my veiling groups due to the extended range. I don't want to veil in too close, but do want to be able to fire at my desired target. Having a 12" range would not work so good with that plan.

I don't view the loss of the AP 4 as too hurtful. The tougher guys leading the charge (and out of cover) often have 2-3+ saves anyway.

Losing the chance to glance any vehicle to death does bug me a little, but the odds of actually doing that with just a small group of immortals is rather low anyways. Better to rely on the heavy weapons.

As I said before: it really depends on how you plan to use them. I want/need the greater mobility of Tesla. If you want/need the armor punching of gaus, nothing wrong with that either.

First off all non twin-linked tesla average hits = number of shots. 10 shots will give 10 hits on average.

Tesla doesn't only save you the 20 points from phaeron, it allows you to not devote the overlord to that particular squad. It's a suicide unit and throwing an overlord in makes you want to hold on to it more. Also going the gauss route will end in many mishaps when you attempt to land in rapid fire range.

Tarrasq wrote:First off all non twin-linked tesla average hits = number of shots. 10 shots will give 10 hits on average.

then, of course, there is always the hilarity of 10 twin-linked tesla carbines (in conjunction with a Stalker).

Take 2 squads. One with tesla one with gauss. Or take tesla with the immortals and take a squad or so of warriors.


Why do you say the unit is suicidal?

Avatar 720 wrote:I had to add an Orb, and that came with downsides, the main one being that an orblord would require a second Overlord to start with, and why spend an extra 65pts on something when what I bought to allow me to get it can do the same job?

I've only recently picked up the Necron Codex (was given a load of models recently, thought I'd try them out), but I'm a little confused by the above. Why would a second Overlord be needed?

I like the idea of the Veiltek, for friendly games with my Orks I use a Weirdboy in a unit of Flashgits. Most random unit ever, but great when the deepstrike result comes up. It does draw alot of firepower as they become bunched up from the deepstrike. Smaller units work better as there's less to go wrong, and less points killed when the unit gets shot up, but Necrons can add alot more durability. Personally I like the gauss better in this case for the added flexibility. You should end up in rapidfire range, and the gauss also allows vehicles to be a target.

Would a Staff of Light not be an option for the Lord in this unit? The aim of the unit is damage through shooting, might let him contribute more.

A staff of light isn't an option. It's too expensive of a unit to be helpless in CC. Also if you want a staff of light just purchase a nakid cryptek and let the overlord keep his warscythe.

Veiltek tactics can be conservative or suicidal.

Aggressive deep strike can definitely be suicidal.

Hanging back at maximum tesla range, plinking away, and veiling onto an objective turn 4/5 is a pretty safe and conservative way to use veiltek immortals.

Poorly deploying immortals into an unsupported position where they will be assaulted early on in the game, waiting for the other side to take advantage of that poor deployment and mobilize to stomp them in CC, and deep striking the immortals out of a bad position into a better deployment will initially appear suicidal, but would end up being a relatively safe way to bait your opponent.

i have been trying gauss veil and tremor tek with crucible. it allows you to get a little closer and still not worry as much about getting assaulted. If you land in terrain(dangerous terrain tests is meh at best 1 out of 9 die). Hit the nearby unit with a tremor stave, follow that by if they attempt to charge you in difficult now they have difficult terrain and a crucible to deal with. Makes it unlikely that they will be able to charge you and so can take advantage of that gauss range.

I'd say Tesla, because the last place you are going to want that unit is within 12 inches of anything. If you get assaulted by anything with power weapons (or anything with more than 1 attack per model) the expensive overlord, lord and veilteks are going to end up falling back off the board.

Spoken by one who has been trying them for a couple of weeks and is now going back to warrior MSU spam.

I have experimented quite a bit with teleporting immortals and i would say definatly Tesla every time.

Using Gauss i found that i rarely used the veil as it was never safe to try and land within 12" of the enemy (even if you dont scatter). I thought about adding a phaeron so I could land outside 12" and still shoot but at that point Tesla is a much cheaper option with more firepower.

I use 10 Tesla + Veil in most list now it works a treat even if you dont teleport till the last turn to grab an objective.

I have used 10 Tesla + veil + Zhandrek and 10 Gauss + Obryan together. The Tesla arrive at a safe distance and the Guass unit uses the teleport homer effect to get within 12". It was good fun but has trouble with any fast assault armies.

Gauss. More reliable, and your mostly going to veil after a tank or skimmer or something. You'd have to keep the Phaeron tho for it to work well. I run a stalker list currently tho... still in the test stages

Avatar 720 wrote:

2) 'Potential' for more shots at full range. I should roll about 1-2 6s, but should =/= will.

Reading that made me a little sad. It's sort of like saying the difference between bs 3 and 4 is negligible, because sometimes I don't roll low. Who rolls low anyway? We have to consider the implications of our abilities in our averages. What is the average output I am paying for here? What am I trying to rely on? Disregarding an ability that influences the main purpose of the unit, and attempts to trigger in just about every interaction is pretty silly. Where as, one might call into question the extra rapid fire shots, or the benefit of spending an arm and and leg on purchasing an overlord for relentless, because how many turns will the benefits of those abilities on the unit be felt? Do you see what I mean?

Necrons are bad at a lot of stuff, they have to pay a lot for added utility, and they have vague benefits, in very specific areas, against other midfield elite armies. Deciding to put your Immortals within charge range is something you'll have to think a lot about, and plan your army around before deciding on. It isn't something I'd recommend investing heavily in shoring up, say with buffs or relentless, because those points spent may well be making them less points efficient at the few jobs they are good at. I hope I'm making sense. You'll end up with a renaissance unit, you've made to handle slightly more situations on the table, but it costs a lot, and is really not going to be relied upon to shoulder many burdens in your army composition, because it still has glaring weaknesses.
So, what is your plan for your immortal squads for the most part? Both sit in cover pretty decently. One is pretty mobile and attempts to exploit it's ranged relatively high rate of fire when mobile, combined with it's resistance to long ranged return fire to take advantage of exposed infantry. Telsa Immortals do this trick cheaper than many other units, and kill infantry pretty darn well in a kiting firefight for their cost, but really, it's a low risk way to get something besides scoring out of a bland troop unit. Gauss, the other sort, seem to prefer sudden torrents, contributing to the rest of the focus fire some necron lists are capable at short range, but they need to find themselves there first. They really remind me of dire avengers actually, though it's a pity necrons don't have doomseers to back them up, just more expensive weapons. Gauss Immortals are also pretty okay when the sit in cover and shoot their hearts out, and they can also contribute to anti vehicle fire, though they do that inefficiently, and tend to feel like a waste when they do that. The main problem is, everything they do, a tesla immortal can do, just slightly worse.

20 gauss shots have about a 70% chance of getting a single immobilized or weapon destroyed via gauss rule glances. That's not a sure thing, with 170 points, at 12 inches, but it is okay.
20 Blaster shots kills almost 3 MEQ units without FNP. Tesla Kills 2.2 with it's average 10 unit output from any range.
The firing of Gauss Blasters only outperforms Tesla Carbines against foes with no cover and a +4 armor save when comparing shot to shot.
Assuming they are firing at 24 range
telsa against 6+ = 5.5 dead
gauss against 6+ = 4.4 dead

telsa against 5+ = 4.4 dead
gauss against 5+ = 4.4 dead

telsa against 4+ = 3.3 dead
gauss against 4+ = 4.4 dead

telsa against 3+ = 2.2 dead
gauss against 3+ = 1.5 dead

telsa against 2+ = 1.1 dead
gauss against 2+ = 0.7 dead

Gauss Immortals are better at 12 range, but they also expose themselves to the bevy of other units that abound that get way better inside of 12 range, and necrons tend to get a lot worse when they are in 12. You probably know why!

It's super hard to do the math on points per kill per round of shooting on an immortal squad with a phaeron and a veiltek because of the existence of reanimation protocols. I'd feel like it was inadequate to just compare it to a squad of grey hunters too, because they grey hunters are also doing anti tank way better than Gauss immortals are, and what you are really worried about, is someone dedicating 2/3 unit's worth of actions to wipe the immortals out and negate protocols. But you have to admit, with the cost of a Phaeron and a Veiltek, the immortals are getting a lot worse at rapidfiring per point if they are usually killing 3 marines in optimal circumstances.

So ya, they seem like they require a lot of thought to use, especially given the lack of inexpensive utility weapons, how mediocre stromteks tend to be, and how expensive and unreliable it is to be trusting nightscythes to get you within 12 inches quickly.
I still like them, I just think they are tricky. It's very easy to spend a lot to get very little with that unit.

If you want to have a big mean rapidfire to death Gauss Immortal squad, Try throwing 2 Stormteks (with or without the anti charge thing in there) and plopping them in a scythe. You can do something similar with any size unit of immortals and 2 veilteks in a nightscythe. I really prefer the nightscythe here because it's much nicer than trying to land within template range with a deepstrike.
Voltaic staves cost 25 points to add to a unit of immortals and do double the strength 5 shots you'd get for an Gauss blaster, but at much fewer points per shot. 2 Stormteks with lightning field added to a Full Gauss immortal squad cost about as much as a 14 man gauss immortal squad would, but also give you some lame charge defense!