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 p5freak wrote:

weaver9 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Belsibub wrote:
I have to ask, how Do you get -5 to hit on a AL lord?

Benediction of darkness -1 to hit (ranged), AL legion trait -1 to hit (ranged), clandestine warlord trait -1 to hit, shadeblade -1 to hit, miasma of pestilence -1 to hit.

I thought the shadeblade replaces a power sword? (Discordant doesn't have a power Sword)

A chaos lord can get -5, a disco lord only can get -4 to hit.

Ahh misread. Thanks!

That being said, unless your army really doesn't have any other threats I do think -4 is a good enough discouragement.

Not much point in a CL having -5 vs range since they have character protection.

Is Faith and Fury worth getting?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Is Faith and Fury worth getting?

In short yes

Long answer, it has the rules to make each legion feel unique and the strats, WL traits and rwlics are on par with the new space marine supplements.

 small_gods wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Is Faith and Fury worth getting?

In short yes

Long answer, it has the rules to make each legion feel unique and the strats, WL traits and rwlics are on par with the new space marine supplements.

On par?

Really?

Short answer is still 'yes' though, there's some good stuff in the faith and fury book for chaos. But SM are still all flavours of bs.

Hmmm, have a question. If I have a battle forged army of say a Night lord's army. And then I bring a fortification known as a Nortlith Crown. Can I make this Nortlith Crown Alpha legion and then gain Alpha legion strategems ?

This is a YMDC question.

Noctolith Crown doesent have <Legion> keyword.

Niiru wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Is Faith and Fury worth getting?

In short yes

Long answer, it has the rules to make each legion feel unique and the strats, WL traits and rwlics are on par with the new space marine supplements.

On par?

Really?

Short answer is still 'yes' though, there's some good stuff in the faith and fury book for chaos. But SM are still all flavours of bs.

Yes the stratergems, WL traits and Relics are. We don't have the legion traits or super doctrines or agressors.... but the rest is all good.

Needs to be said more. CSM got some great rules in PA...

Speaking of PA rules...

Anyone have an opinion on Slaanesh talons (rerolling wounds +d6 attacks) vs Tzeentch sword (negating invul) on a daemon prince?

At first I thought negating invuln was amazing for matchups like custodes and sisters.... but starting to think that more attacks and more saves (due to rr wounds) will net you better results.

 grouchoben wrote:
Needs to be said more. CSM got some great rules in PA...

They really didn't.

All it did was cement Alpha Legion as still the best. Someone said "outside Legion Traits" which is part of the damned problem. Then there's the fact they have a straight worse relic Strat, legion locked Strats that are generic to Loyalists. The strats don't fix problems that some Legions have in the first place.

You're delusional to think the rules were any good. You're just lucky you get any of the table scraps.

weaver9 wrote:
Anyone have an opinion on Slaanesh talons (rerolling wounds +d6 attacks) vs Tzeentch sword (negating invul) on a daemon prince?

Offence is the easiest thing to calculate in 40k, but what you need to know is the purpose of the weapon. Removing Primaris squads one by one? Talons. Looking to drop a 3++ HQ? Sword.

This is a basic variance calculator site if you'd like to check for yourself. Generally the Claws have more damage potential but whiffing against a Warlord HQ is perhaps more game-breaking. I wouldn't say I'm an authority on prob and stats, but this gives you an idea.

https://juniper-christmas.glitch.me/

Yoyoyo wrote:

weaver9 wrote:
Anyone have an opinion on Slaanesh talons (rerolling wounds +d6 attacks) vs Tzeentch sword (negating invul) on a daemon prince?

Offence is the easiest thing to calculate in 40k, but what you need to know is the purpose of the weapon. Removing Primaris squads one by one? Talons. Looking to drop a 3++ HQ? Sword.

This is a basic variance calculator site if you'd like to check for yourself. Generally the Claws have more damage potential but whiffing against a Warlord HQ is perhaps more game-breaking. I wouldn't say I'm an authority on prob and stats, but this gives you an idea.

https://juniper-christmas.glitch.me/

The three extra attacks are more likely to harm the 3++ HQ usually. Assuming T4, that's 1.8 (average 3.5 extra attacks for the Talons) vs 1.7. Assuming T5-7 (for whatever reason those get a 3++, but I guess it happens), that's 1.35 vs 1.2.

He's asking about the Daemon Weapons.

Yoyoyo wrote:
He's asking about the Daemon Weapons.

Yeah I did that calculation. Did you somehow miss that?

AL won overall, but NL, WB, IW & AL all got game-changing buffs, Slayer. You see that don't you? Sure, the faction is balanced around soup. But CSM got the most exciting new strats of PA so far.

Unless you're expecting a PA release to be on a par with a codex+supplement rewrite?

 grouchoben wrote:
AL won overall, but NL, WB, IW & AL all got game-changing buffs, Slayer. You see that don't you? Sure, the faction is balanced around soup. But CSM got the most exciting new strats of PA so far.

Unless you're expecting a PA release to be on a par with a codex+supplement rewrite?

No they really didn't. Night Lords got the one strat to stop auras and that's about it.

Hmmm. That's majestically underselling F&F imo. Here's the list of decent buffs we received:

Malefic Tome, Exalted Possession, Malevolent Covenant, Dark Council, Revered Hosts, Vox Scream, Prey On The Weak, We Have Come for You, Raptor strike, Clandestine, master of diversion, headhunter+Hydra's Wail, conceal, Sabotaged Armory, retreat, renascent infiltration, ambush, Daemonsmith, Siege Master, Stoic Advance, Axe of the Forgemaster, Methodical Annihilation, Dour Duty, Tank Hunters, cannon fodder, Armour of Abhorrence, Remnant , Raiment Revulsive, Combat Elixirs and finally, Honour The Prince...

So nopie, you're dead wrong as far as I can see.

 grouchoben wrote:
Hmmm. That's majestically underselling F&F imo. Here's the list of decent buffs we received:

Malefic Tome, Exalted Possession, Malevolent Covenant, Dark Council, Revered Hosts, Vox Scream, Prey On The Weak, We Have Come for You, Raptor strike, Clandestine, master of diversion, headhunter+Hydra's Wail, conceal, Sabotaged Armory, retreat, renascent infiltration, ambush, Daemonsmith, Siege Master, Stoic Advance, Axe of the Forgemaster, Methodical Annihilation, Dour Duty, Tank Hunters, cannon fodder, Armour of Abhorrence, Remnant , Raiment Revulsive, Combat Elixirs and finally, Honour The Prince...

So nopie, you're dead wrong as far as I can see.

Naming basically everything in there does nothing to help your case, especially when you list things like Prey On The Weak, Axe of the Forgemaster, Revered Host and all that garbage for stuff that isn't going to get into melee in the first place LOL, and the fact you're listing mostly Alpha Legion stuff says it all. Iron Warriors did good outside the fact you're still better off going with Alpha Legion.

Honour the Prince & Raptor Strike allow you to get off DS melee attacks now, and the Rainment allows you to shut off overwatch without taking warptalons, which are good now for NL too. So I don't really see what your beef is with me listing a few CC buffs in there (a few, mind). Prey on the Weak is solid for NL, given their inherent Ld debuff, either cc or shooting. The Axe is a good relic weapon. Revered Host makes possessed primaris killers, it's a big deal for possessed.

I haven't listed everything at all! I've listed the things that are good enough to see play, about 10-20% of what we got in F&F. That you could make that mistake kind of helps to show how much stuff is in that book.

I don't really have any beef with you Slayer, but you're dead wrong on this.

 grouchoben wrote:
Honour the Prince & Raptor Strike allow you to get off DS melee attacks now, and the Rainment allows you to shut off overwatch without taking warptalons, which are good now for NL too. So I don't really see what your beef is with me listing a few CC buffs in there (a few, mind). Prey on the Weak is solid for NL, given their inherent Ld debuff, either cc or shooting. The Axe is a good relic weapon. Revered Host makes possessed primaris killers, it's a big deal for possessed.

I haven't listed everything at all! I've listed the things that are good enough to see play, about 10-20% of what we got in F&F. That you could make that mistake kind of helps to show how much stuff is in that book.

I don't really have any beef with you Slayer, but you're dead wrong on this.

Raptorial Host was already getting stuff into melee from Deep Strike, so there's no need to use the super bad Night Lords who are but useless basically outside Vox Scream. With your "good relic weapon" axe, you get basically everything you need from a Power Fist, which means you freed up one of your limited Relic slots, simply because Mortal Wounds on a chance against vehicles is overly specific and not worth it. Possessed are still bad at getting anywhere without Alpha Legion, so it doesn't matter if you make them Primaris "killers" LOL

So no I'm not wrong. You just decided the table scraps are good for whatever reason.

Okay, think I'll leave this here, not sure it's worthwhile! If you can't see the value in those very good listed strats, relics and traits then fair enough.

I'll just be off to feast on my 'table scraps'.

Hoping on getting a little clarity on the Red Butchers strat. Can you play that on a terminator lord? I'm thinking a red butcher lord with gore father would be filthy.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

weaver9 wrote:
Anyone have an opinion on Slaanesh talons (rerolling wounds +d6 attacks) vs Tzeentch sword (negating invul) on a daemon prince?

Offence is the easiest thing to calculate in 40k, but what you need to know is the purpose of the weapon. Removing Primaris squads one by one? Talons. Looking to drop a 3++ HQ? Sword.

This is a basic variance calculator site if you'd like to check for yourself. Generally the Claws have more damage potential but whiffing against a Warlord HQ is perhaps more game-breaking. I wouldn't say I'm an authority on prob and stats, but this gives you an idea.

https://juniper-christmas.glitch.me/

The three extra attacks are more likely to harm the 3++ HQ usually. Assuming T4, that's 1.8 (average 3.5 extra attacks for the Talons) vs 1.7. Assuming T5-7 (for whatever reason those get a 3++, but I guess it happens), that's 1.35 vs 1.2.

Thanks for this everyone. I ended up going for the talons and indeed they proved good.

I originally wanted a way to bypass invuls, but the extra attacks and rerolls won out in my mind for generalist purposes.

The broader list of triple LoS also ended up doing very well!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Honour the Prince & Raptor Strike allow you to get off DS melee attacks now, and the Rainment allows you to shut off overwatch without taking warptalons, which are good now for NL too. So I don't really see what your beef is with me listing a few CC buffs in there (a few, mind). Prey on the Weak is solid for NL, given their inherent Ld debuff, either cc or shooting. The Axe is a good relic weapon. Revered Host makes possessed primaris killers, it's a big deal for possessed.

I haven't listed everything at all! I've listed the things that are good enough to see play, about 10-20% of what we got in F&F. That you could make that mistake kind of helps to show how much stuff is in that book.

I don't really have any beef with you Slayer, but you're dead wrong on this.

Raptorial Host was already getting stuff into melee from Deep Strike, so there's no need to use the super bad Night Lords who are but useless basically outside Vox Scream. With your "good relic weapon" axe, you get basically everything you need from a Power Fist, which means you freed up one of your limited Relic slots, simply because Mortal Wounds on a chance against vehicles is overly specific and not worth it. Possessed are still bad at getting anywhere without Alpha Legion, so it doesn't matter if you make them Primaris "killers" LOL

So no I'm not wrong. You just decided the table scraps are good for whatever reason.

Have you actually played with the new rules?

I've gone from not being able to take a pure csm list to tournaments to not wanting to take my daemons. It's made the difference between struggling to compete to winning all three games in my last tournament, having much more success vs friends. I've used alpha legion, night lords and Iron Warriors. I don't have noise marines or possessed but I'm sure they'll work well too.

Is it just that CSM players want to be downtrodden? Or are you basing it on playing people?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah I did that calculation. Did you somehow miss that?

Clearly. You don't take the Tzeentch sword for a better statistical mean damage, you take it to eliminate variance. That's why I posted a site specifically so you can examine statistical distributions.

You also mentioned "three extra attacks" and didn't post any of your actual calculations. Put bluntly man, I don't really trust you even to crunch stats on a public forum about a game. You clearly have some psychological issues and while I sympathise, if you want me to take you seriously: communicate clearly, demonstrate your evidence as best possible, and be passive-aggressive never.

I don't remember seeing your edit at the time I posted either. Just saying.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah I did that calculation. Did you somehow miss that?

Clearly. You don't take the Tzeentch sword for a better statistical mean damage, you take it to eliminate variance. That's why I posted a site specifically so you can examine statistical distributions.

You also mentioned "three extra attacks" and didn't post any of your actual calculations. Put bluntly man, I don't really trust you even to crunch stats on a public forum about a game. You clearly have some psychological issues and while I sympathise, if you want me to take you seriously: communicate clearly, demonstrate your evidence as best possible, and be passive-aggressive never.

I don't remember seeing your edit at the time I posted either. Just saying.

I edited to clarify that the three extra attacks came from the Talons rather than just giving extra attacks for no reason, and only caught that after pressing post.

And if you really wanted to eliminate variance you'd just take the mortal wound axe anyway. So there's honestly no point to the Sword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 small_gods wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Honour the Prince & Raptor Strike allow you to get off DS melee attacks now, and the Rainment allows you to shut off overwatch without taking warptalons, which are good now for NL too. So I don't really see what your beef is with me listing a few CC buffs in there (a few, mind). Prey on the Weak is solid for NL, given their inherent Ld debuff, either cc or shooting. The Axe is a good relic weapon. Revered Host makes possessed primaris killers, it's a big deal for possessed.

I haven't listed everything at all! I've listed the things that are good enough to see play, about 10-20% of what we got in F&F. That you could make that mistake kind of helps to show how much stuff is in that book.

I don't really have any beef with you Slayer, but you're dead wrong on this.

Raptorial Host was already getting stuff into melee from Deep Strike, so there's no need to use the super bad Night Lords who are but useless basically outside Vox Scream. With your "good relic weapon" axe, you get basically everything you need from a Power Fist, which means you freed up one of your limited Relic slots, simply because Mortal Wounds on a chance against vehicles is overly specific and not worth it. Possessed are still bad at getting anywhere without Alpha Legion, so it doesn't matter if you make them Primaris "killers" LOL

So no I'm not wrong. You just decided the table scraps are good for whatever reason.

Have you actually played with the new rules?

I've gone from not being able to take a pure csm list to tournaments to not wanting to take my daemons. It's made the difference between struggling to compete to winning all three games in my last tournament, having much more success vs friends. I've used alpha legion, night lords and Iron Warriors. I don't have noise marines or possessed but I'm sure they'll work well too.

Is it just that CSM players want to be downtrodden? Or are you basing it on playing people?

I have and I'm not impressed with anything. It's just GW feeding us table scraps and certain posters lapping it up like we should be thanking GW for being so generous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

weaver9 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

weaver9 wrote:
Anyone have an opinion on Slaanesh talons (rerolling wounds +d6 attacks) vs Tzeentch sword (negating invul) on a daemon prince?

Offence is the easiest thing to calculate in 40k, but what you need to know is the purpose of the weapon. Removing Primaris squads one by one? Talons. Looking to drop a 3++ HQ? Sword.

This is a basic variance calculator site if you'd like to check for yourself. Generally the Claws have more damage potential but whiffing against a Warlord HQ is perhaps more game-breaking. I wouldn't say I'm an authority on prob and stats, but this gives you an idea.

https://juniper-christmas.glitch.me/

The three extra attacks are more likely to harm the 3++ HQ usually. Assuming T4, that's 1.8 (average 3.5 extra attacks for the Talons) vs 1.7. Assuming T5-7 (for whatever reason those get a 3++, but I guess it happens), that's 1.35 vs 1.2.

Thanks for this everyone. I ended up going for the talons and indeed they proved good.

I originally wanted a way to bypass invuls, but the extra attacks and rerolls won out in my mind for generalist purposes.

The broader list of triple LoS also ended up doing very well!

If you really want to bypass Invuls, you can get the Axe which just deals mortals on a 4+. If you really need to suicide a particular character, Murder Sword will surpass it.

Nobody is saying anything about thanking GW we're saying that the new rules are good. Some are fun and situational, others are amazing in many situations.

Take night lords, they can now shut off a character, stop something falling back, charge on 3d6, 1cp to add one to hit, fall back and charge, give a lord a 2+ save and always in cover and get up to 17 attacks from a winged daemon prince. None of which was available beforehand. I can't see how you can think this is not good for CSM??

I think its the combination of the news rules plus the impact of so many stuff getting a points cut in the 2019 chapter approved. CSM is fun and great to play now. Honestly.

I was amazed I managed to fit in a brigade without that much trouble. I mean, spawn are just 20 points now. If you are already running enough of the other slots, 60 more points for like 7 extra command points is a no brainer. And if you want your FA slots to have teeth, bikes and warp talons are cheap enough they will at least pull their weight if you put them into the list.

So its not just the new rules from Faith and Fury. all the points drop in the new Chapter approved was huge too. It has strengthened a lot of CSM's army lists. (unless you only ran plague bearers and TS daemon princes).

I have made so many different lists since Faith and Fury and the new chapter approved dropped. They all look viable and fun and thematic to boot. Ok, maybe they are not the meanest thing out there competitively, but they at least look like they will give me a game as opposed to just losing terribly most of the time. Even black legion and renegades CSM got a boost because of the points drop and you can pair them with the other legions in a list too.

We get 3 detachments usually to make a list for 2000 points. So you can mix up to 3 legions to gain different flavours of strategems, relics and such. CSM has a big toolbox and the point drop in CA has made a lot of stuff viable.

 small_gods wrote:
Nobody is saying anything about thanking GW we're saying that the new rules are good. Some are fun and situational, others are amazing in many situations.

Take night lords, they can now shut off a character, stop something falling back, charge on 3d6, 1cp to add one to hit, fall back and charge, give a lord a 2+ save and always in cover and get up to 17 attacks from a winged daemon prince. None of which was available beforehand. I can't see how you can think this is not good for CSM??

They're really not good though. We got a handful of good stuff and that's it. Alpha Legion is still the best one and the rest didn't get anything meaningful. That is unless you want to try and defend Revered Host as amazing somehow.