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Hey guys, sorry if this has already be mentioned,

I started tau not long ago and was doing some maths, and I just realized Kroots are better at SHOOTING than firewarriors,
Point per point value shooty kroots are stronger than firewarriors, in cover this is, but in 5th edition almost everything has a 4+ cover save anyway.

This is true vs MEQ (7.5% cheaper) and vs T3( 12.5% cheaper), and even vs T5 they are just a bit expensiver (5% to be exact).

Now I know that in 5th its full mech anyway, but following some rumors 6th ed will be more shooty and less mech heavy so base troops shooting could become a viable alternative, in this case you will see 1 6-firewarrior-unit followed by dozens of kroots units.

I mean how could GW make this codex without realising the CC-troops are stronger in shooting than the shooty ones?

ps: all of thoses benefits is without considering the infiltrator/pseudo-stealth/cc-power of the kroots.

Fire Warriors are bad at killing base infantry.
Through sheer weight of additional shots, kroot should do better at killing basic troops.

However, Fire Warriors actually do reasonably as anti-transport platforms. 6-12 Str 5 shots are quite happily capable of shutting down AV 10 and 11. All my Firewarriors are set up to hose enemy transports, tnen harass what was inside. I leave the infantry to my battlesuits and vehicles. ( though I'm going to be trying some decent sized kroot squads for bubble wrap / anti-infantry purposes)

Also, at the time Tau were released, fire warriors were good.

The problem is, Tau are ancient now, 2 core editions out of their time (about to be 3) and badly in need of an update (and all those shiny new models it will bring.)

Tau aren't bad, they just need a bit of finesse, and a reasonable grasp of strategy and tactics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fire Warriors are bad at killing base infantry.
Through sheer weight of additional shots, kroot should do better at killing basic troops.

However, Fire Warriors actually do reasonably as anti-transport platforms. 6-12 Str 5 shots are quite happily capable of shutting down AV 10 and 11. All my Firewarriors are set up to hose enemy transports, tnen harass what was inside. I leave the infantry to my battlesuits and vehicles. ( though I'm going to be trying some decent sized kroot squads for bubble wrap / anti-infantry purposes)

Also, at the time Tau were released, fire warriors were good.

The problem is, Tau are ancient now, 2 core editions out of their time (about to be 3) and badly in need of an update (and all those shiny new models it will bring.)

Tau aren't bad, they just need a bit of finesse, and a reasonable grasp of strategy and tactics.

I prefer to use missile-launchers against vehicles IMHO much more point-effective.

I think firewarriors (except if your taking a devilfish) are useless compared to kroots (not fluff wise or scenary-like ofc).

Firewarriors are less powerfull vs infantry in shooting.

Firewarriors are too point-heavy to be used solemnly against (very-) light vehicles:
to be able to imoblize/wreck/destroy (wich is what you want when shooting at a transport) a vehicle with av 11 (most common) you need 72 shots (and you will only imobilize it).

Against av 10 you need 18 shots.

Better to use M-L wich need 11 shots against av11 for the same result and 7 shots against av 10.

All this with BS 3;
meaning: even a fire-knife combo is ALOT more point-effective to take down such vehicles than firewarriors: MEANING THEY'RE MATHEMATHICALLY USELLES

And yet a 1+ unit.
Personally, I use 2-3 squads of 6 firewarriors. These do fine against light vehicles, as suppression is good. Shaken / Immobilised / Wrecked / Destroyed are all results.

I'm perfectly happy with a can't-move-this-turn result on a transport.

And I tend to use my fireknives on other light / med vehicles, and heavy infantry. I also have deathrains for light / medium vehicles.

My point was, Fire Warriors are better at suppressing light vehicles than killing MEQs. (they're alright against geqs mind).

Also, mathammer gives you a rough idea based on averages, it's not something to live by.

But again, Tau have an ooooold book. Maybe you'll be interested in my Tau Extended Codex once it's done until the new one gets here. :p

That’s one of the reason I take Krootox. Caught many an opponent off guard with rapid fire stg 7, 48” range weapon and stg6 close combat. Most of my armys these days are 1 squard of 6 fire warriors then Kroot. As a bonues 3+ cover save if in woods.

=well even you take shaken in consideration;

Against av 11 -> 60 shots needed
Against av 10 -> 15 shots

Still that is 600 points or 150 points worth of turn-shooting to "harass" a 35 point transport, not that great.

Deathrain combo does the same (even better) for 1/3 of the points.

And ofc mathhammer isn't 100%accurate but it gives you a very good idea of the efectiveness of your units, and for me firewarriors are trash stats-wise, all they can do is getting in a devilfish and capturing a strategic point. :(

Against infantry -> krrots prevail (shooty and cc wise)
Against vehicles -> exo armor prevail

Yes they're better, but I've found FWs useful too.

Also, Krootox are awesome. Shame so expensive though.

Pottsey wrote:That’s one of the reason I take Krootox. Caught many an opponent off guard with rapid fire stg 7, 48” range weapon and stg6 close combat. Most of my armys these days are 1 squard of 6 fire warriors then Kroot. As a bonues 3+ cover save if in woods.

I'm sorry to disapoint you but krootox isn't worth the point, atleast in small to medium units:

Look at it like this: Your krootox is in the same unit as your kroots; meaning if it shoots at av11+ transports your whole unit won't be able to fire
If you fire at troops; it's better to have 5 S4 shoots than 1 S7 shot (1 krootox = 5 kroots)
In close combat it's best (most of the time) to have 10 S4 attacks than 3 S6 attacks :p

Also don't forget a krootox is a 35 point 1 shot autocanon, meuh... ^^


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Ovion wrote:Yes they're better, but I've found FWs useful too.

Also, Krootox are awesome. Shame so expensive though.

This is not a sign of disrespect, it really isn't, but I can't understand why you love the FWs so much after all this? (except look wise ofc :p)

I mean kroots are alot better against infantry shooty-wise (without talking about their infiltrate/pseudo-stealth and cc-ability's)
M-L are far better vs vehicles (and even FAR BETTER point-wise)

The only reason you should take FWs is due to the 1+ :p

You guys can toss the mathhammer around on Tau troop options all day.....

the final verdict is... THEY ALL SUCK.


Thank you. Come again.

Milisim wrote:You guys can toss the mathhammer around on Tau troop options all day.....

the final verdict is... THEY ALL SUCK.


Thank you. Come again.

Yeah except kroots being one of the best base-weapons troop choice in almost all 40k: 7pts for a BS3 bolter/infiltrator/pseudo-stealth/2 S4 attacks; try and find better please...

I like the firewarrior models a lot, and I'm sure I've said they're ultimately not that amazing on the table.

But, I'm not a huge fan of kroot, and being I'm using the firewarriors anyway, I've found their best use is peppering light vehicles with withering fire, being they're better at that than meq killing.

And while I know it'll likely fail miserably (though one can hope that in 6th / next book it'll be better) I'm making an 84 firewarrior foot list. :p

(also krootox are fun, a str7 rapid fire gun is cool, It's just expensive in points and pounds.)

a freind of mine plays tau and seems to dislike kroot.

This may have been down to me as i sold him the contence of a tau battle force, but did not part with the kroot.

He doesn't even concider them good or worth taking.

I LOVE KROOT they are great they have good models, good profile, they can infiltrate.

Infact the only dis advantage is the lack of armour on the little biliter.


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a freind of mine plays tau and seems to dislike kroot.

This may have been down to me as i sold him the contence of a tau battle force, but did not part with the kroot.

He doesn't even concider them good or worth taking.

I LOVE KROOT they are great they have good models, good profile, they can infiltrate.

Infact the only dis advantage is the lack of armour on the little biliter.

SevenToxy wrote:

Milisim wrote:You guys can toss the mathhammer around on Tau troop options all day.....

the final verdict is... THEY ALL SUCK.


Thank you. Come again.

Yeah except kroots being one of the best base-weapons troop choice in almost all 40k: 7pts for a BS3 bolter/infiltrator/pseudo-stealth/2 S4 attacks; try and find better please...

IG vets, 100 points for 3 BS 4 meltaguns, 115 points for 3 BS 4 plasma guns, they can also take stealth, 4+ armour save, or an AP 2 short range large blast. Also strength 4 is pretty meh since marines, Orks, and some Guard have it.

Buttons wrote:

SevenToxy wrote:

Milisim wrote:You guys can toss the mathhammer around on Tau troop options all day.....

the final verdict is... THEY ALL SUCK.


Thank you. Come again.

Yeah except kroots being one of the best base-weapons troop choice in almost all 40k: 7pts for a BS3 bolter/infiltrator/pseudo-stealth/2 S4 attacks; try and find better please...

IG vets, 100 points for 3 BS 4 meltaguns, 115 points for 3 BS 4 plasma guns, they can also take stealth, 4+ armour save, or an AP 2 short range large blast. Also strength 4 is pretty meh since marines, Orks, and some Guard have it.

Yeah but for stealth/armor 4+ etc... they have to pay 30+ points just saying...
For 100 points 3 melta BS4 is very good, though kroots for 100 point you got more men (14-15 compared to 10)/ pseudo-stealth for free/infiltrator for free/ same weapon effect vs MEQ (S4 bs3= s3 BS4) and in cc there is no question who would win.

Don't get me wrong vets are good but still kroots are awesome, specially considering it's a 4ed codex compared to 5th IG...

SevenToxy wrote:

Pottsey wrote:That’s one of the reason I take Krootox. Caught many an opponent off guard with rapid fire stg 7, 48” range weapon and stg6 close combat. Most of my armys these days are 1 squard of 6 fire warriors then Kroot. As a bonues 3+ cover save if in woods.

I'm sorry to disapoint you but krootox isn't worth the point, atleast in small to medium units:

Look at it like this: Your krootox is in the same unit as your kroots; meaning if it shoots at av11+ transports your whole unit won't be able to fire
If you fire at troops; it's better to have 5 S4 shoots than 1 S7 shot (1 krootox = 5 kroots)
In close combat it's best (most of the time) to have 10 S4 attacks than 3 S6 attacks :p

Also don't forget a krootox is a 35 point 1 shot autocanon, meuh... ^^


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Ovion wrote:Yes they're better, but I've found FWs useful too.

Also, Krootox are awesome. Shame so expensive though.

This is not a sign of disrespect, it really isn't, but I can't understand why you love the FWs so much after all this? (except look wise ofc :p)

I mean kroots are alot better against infantry shooty-wise (without talking about their infiltrate/pseudo-stealth and cc-ability's)
M-L are far better vs vehicles (and even FAR BETTER point-wise)

The only reason you should take FWs is due to the 1+ :p

Generally speaking when there are av11+ transports there are no troops to shoot at as troops are inside. I would rather the Krootox blow up the av11+ transports at 48” range then wait for the troops to unload at sub 24” and have extra kroot firing. Plus you can sit Krootox on objectives markers and take long range pot shots at stg 7 at targets; more Kroot would be useless for that. I also run into situations like dreadnoughts deepstrikeing which the Krootox can both soften up with shooting 1 turn then if assaulted take wounds on Kroot and have the Krootox fight back in CC. More than once I have taken out Stormraven gunships so I would always take Krootox over extra Kroot. 9 Kroot, 1 shaper (no armmor upgrade), and 3 riders seem best to me. Unless you infiltrate then replace 3 riders with 12hounds.

Kroot do something that firewarriors can't, and that's provide melee damage.

If you are running a list without markerlights, or very few of them, then kroot do far better than firewarriors. However if each of your firewarrior teams have at lease 2 markerlists ready when they shoot, it shifts in favor of firewarriors being far better.

I'm currently experimenting with a list that uses 60 kroot and some hounds, plus 6 krootox. Odds are it's good.

juraigamer wrote:Kroot do something that firewarriors can't, and that's provide melee damage.

If you are running a list without markerlights, or very few of them, then kroot do far better than firewarriors. However if each of your firewarrior teams have at lease 2 markerlists ready when they shoot, it shifts in favor of firewarriors being far better.

I'm currently experimenting with a list that uses 60 kroot and some hounds, plus 6 krootox. Odds are it's good.

Haven't seen it that way, maybe 2-3 units of 10 FW's with markerlights+multiple-shots perk/1-2 markerdrones can be usefull, I should try it some time :p

SevenToxy, you have stumbled upon the worst kept secret in the Tau codex, as Kroot are indeed better than Firewarriors at shooting. That in combination with superior numbers for absorbing casualties, larger unit sizes, infiltrate, and superior close combat ability makes them far and away the superior to Firewarriors, the only other Tau troops choice. If the Tau codex can even be considered competitive in the current 5th edition codex creeped environment, these guys are one of the elements keeping them competitive. They are your only functional troop choice, and in rapid fire range, arguable your most points efficient GEQ and MEQ killers. Its rather unfortunate that you are still forced to take at least six Firewarriors to battle.

Ovion, your suggestion that Firewarriors should be used to crack transports is so bad its physically painful. Tau are are hurting in a lot of ways, but thanks to Deathrain+ Crisis Suits (twin-linked missile pods and a targeting array), they can pop transports like champs. Don't use Firewarriors for this task, or Krootox for that matter. Bring the right tool for the right job, in this case Deathrains.

As a Tyranid player, when faced with fire warriors I just barrel my way through the measely amount of shots being poured at me and most of the time I'll still have enough units to wreck the tau player's gunline by the time I get there. Kroot however, have enough weight of fire to give my blobs a small amount of pause and can actually have surprising amounts of success against hormagaunts, and will rip up termagaunts and rippers, though genestealers and warriors still tear them up.

Never put markerdrones with firewarriors, instead use pathfinders or a stealth marker team as markerlight supports.

This way, you force your opponents to shoot those units, rather than your expensive fire warriors.

The last thing firewarriors should be trying blowing up transports.

I frequently use saturation fire against Invul save models and Monstrous Creatures. Being able to give a unit of Firewarriors some Markerlight boosts has helped me hose down a few units of nastiness charging towards my lines.

Kroot are great and all for screening, outflanking, or camping objectives, but firewariorrs are often underestimated. When you get a couple markerlight hits, firewarriors become really deadly.
They are meant to be used with markerlight support, along with everything else, and that has to be considered.

Phanixis wrote:Ovion, your suggestion that Firewarriors should be used to crack transports is so bad its physically painful. Tau are are hurting in a lot of ways, but thanks to Deathrain+ Crisis Suits (twin-linked missile pods and a targeting array), they can pop transports like champs. Don't use Firewarriors for this task, or Krootox for that matter. Bring the right tool for the right job, in this case Deathrains.

I have Deathrain+s and Fireknives, as well as Broadsides and Hammerheads, HOWEVER, in my experience, after firing everything else, unless there are some Guardsman / basic nids / basic eldar handy, I would rather point my Pulse Rifles at any AV10/11 transport in range, than at that squad of MEQs, being I'll average killing 0-1 marine (0.667 by the math with 6 shots.), while against the vehicle, I pretty much always get 1-2 glances / pens, which will then at least slow it down. I simply rate the Pulse Rifle a better weapon for harrassing light vehicles than MEQs / TEQs.

Note that I have not once said they are GOOD at it, just better at taking on light vehicles than elite infantry.