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I seem to remember reading somewhere in the rule book (if somebody knows what page it is off their head feel free to post the page) that (and I'm paraphrasing here), "You can only use weapons and equipment that are modeled on your models." So, basically, my question is, lets say in a tournament, that because of this rule I can't use my tac squads bolt pistols because I don't have them modeled on my tac squad? I mean, the sprue doesn't give me bolt pistols to put on. What do you reccomend I do about this rule? (It is a rule isn't it, I'm not just crazy and making up random rules ya?)

Thanks in advance,
-Ryan

If your TAC squads come with a bolt pistol and you can't get rid of them you should be fine as generally for what you see is what you get, most people want you to model options and upgrades on models and make sure the model clearly represents what the model is equipped with.

Yeah, its called assembling your models correctly, or, simpler, WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get).

Now, there is quite a bit of leeway given to tiny bits like grenades and pistols, but don't try and convince an opponent that your devastators have lascannons when they just have bolters on the figs. Shenanigans aplenty there...

The WYSIWYG rule is outlined on p47. It is given for "character models in particular", but the rule itself is worded generally so that options for wargear must be modelled (for all models, not just characters as such).

The common convention, so far as I've seen, is that a model's basic wargear does not need to be represented. As long as it's clear what that model is meant to represent, you can very easily assume what wargear it has just by looking at the unit entry. It's only when you give a model an upgraded weapon that you really need to represent it on the model, so as to prevent ambiguity.

For example, a Tactical Marine has a bolter, bolt pistol and grenades as standard. If you are able to look at a model and know that it is a Tactical Marine, then that model is assumed to have the basic wargear unless it is clearly modelled to have something else. If that model is clearly armed with a flamer, then it is therefore expected that you've paid for a flamer upgrade for him, not a meltagun or a plasmagun.

Same goes for things like Chaos Space Marines and SW Grey Hunters, who have a bolter, bolt pistol and close combat weapon. As long as you can recognise the unit, you can easily assume that it has the basic wargear.

It's impossible to speak for every tournament out there, but all of the ones I've been to have followed that convention. If you're still not sure, it's always best to contact the TO.

Cheexsta wrote:The WYSIWYG rule is outlined on p47. It is given for "character models in particular", but the rule itself is worded generally so that options for wargear must be modelled (for all models, not just characters as such).

The common convention, so far as I've seen, is that a model's basic wargear does not need to be represented. As long as it's clear what that model is meant to represent, you can very easily assume what wargear it has just by looking at the unit entry. It's only when you give a model an upgraded weapon that you really need to represent it on the model, so as to prevent ambiguity.

For example, a Tactical Marine has a bolter, bolt pistol and grenades as standard. If you are able to look at a model and know that it is a Tactical Marine, then that model is assumed to have the basic wargear unless it is clearly modelled to have something else. If that model is clearly armed with a flamer, then it is therefore expected that you've paid for a flamer upgrade for him, not a meltagun or a plasmagun.

Same goes for things like Chaos Space Marines and SW Grey Hunters, who have a bolter, bolt pistol and close combat weapon. As long as you can recognise the unit, you can easily assume that it has the basic wargear.

It's impossible to speak for every tournament out there, but all of the ones I've been to have followed that convention. If you're still not sure, it's always best to contact the TO.

Thanks so much for this, it really helped. My local shop's rule is as long as your enemy knows you have it (wrote it down on your list) and it is within the rules and points limit, you can use it. Thing is I am transfering to another school Fall quarter, and I wasn't sure about the local shop's rule, but your post really helped.

What about if you've modeled an upgrade but dont want to use it in that game? E.g. Wings on a daemon prince

olim wrote:What about if you've modeled an upgrade but dont want to use it in that game? E.g. Wings on a daemon prince

Overmodeling is no more WYSIWYG than Proxying is.

Ask your opponent if he is ok with it or not. If an event is WYSIWYG, then overmodeling causes issues.

Ryan_A wrote:Thanks so much for this, it really helped. My local shop's rule is as long as your enemy knows you have it (wrote it down on your list) and it is within the rules and points limit, you can use it. Thing is I am transfering to another school Fall quarter, and I wasn't sure about the local shop's rule, but your post really helped.

No problem. Of course, the best way it to ask your local group/store/club/etc. how they deal with it, but the common convention I mentioned is the only one I've seen personally, and seems to be the consensus whenever this topic pops up online. YMMV.

olim wrote:What about if you've modeled an upgrade but dont want to use it in that game? E.g. Wings on a daemon prince

It would depend on the upgrade and your opponent. Something subtle, like meltabombs (or most of the Tyranid upgrades), probably won't even be noticed; others, like the wings you mention, may cause problems. It can be very easy to forget that some Sternguard Vets don't have the combi-meltas they are armed with, so you might spend an entire game keeping your Land Raider away from it for no reason. Or that some of your Missile Launchers are there, but others aren't. That sort of thing.

I find that if I ever need to proxy something, that it can be easily fixed by blu-tacking the weapon (or a piece of paper with the weapon's name) they're supposed to have onto the front of the model. Obviously, this may not fly at a tournament, though I know one player who accidentally left half his army interstate, so proxied a bunch of Rhinos with squares of paper...surprisingly, none of his opponents had a problem with it, and the TO was only disappointed that he had to waste one of the limited number of player packs to do it

WYSIWYG is stupid to be honest the only people that benefit from it are the people selling the models (I.E having to buy extra boxes for unsupplied weapons )

Personally if you state before the game what your army has, and have a sheet detailing that, so you cant change it in the heat off battle i am fine with it ,as are most people i know

In tournaments and competitive games WYSIWYG wins :(

snakel wrote:WYSIWYG is stupid to be honest the only people that benefit from it are the people selling the models (I.E having to buy extra boxes for unsupplied weapons )

Yeah... No.

WYSIWYG benefits the person across the table from you. Even if you provide a sheet that tells me what everything is, I don't want it. I want to be able to look at the table and see what I need to see. This is especially true in a competitive setting.

The way I have always tried to do it is that if only one guy in the squad has and upgrade of some sort he needs to show it some how. So all of my demo charge guardsman have something that acts as a demo charge. All of the demo charges in my army "chopped up vox casters" looks the same and look nothing like the actual vox casters in my army because I removed all of the parts that make them look like a radio. I do not however attempt to model the melta bombs all of my guardsman are suppose to have because one they can look line anything and two the fact that my vets have the demo doctrine means they all have them. So long as its clear what everything has most people shouldnt care unless they want to win at all cost.

snakel wrote:WYSIWYG is stupid to be honest the only people that benefit from it are the people selling the models (I.E having to buy extra boxes for unsupplied weapons )

Personally if you state before the game what your army has, and have a sheet detailing that, so you cant change it in the heat off battle i am fine with it ,as are most people i know

In tournaments and competitive games WYSIWYG wins :(

Oh, it might be fine for some things, especially amongst people you know. My regular opponent has been using proxy Long Fangs for ages: all the bolter guys and the unpainted sergeant dude are missile launchers, and the painted sergeant dude is the pack leader. Not to mention all of his Grey Hunter meltagunners conveniently don't have arms.

But it's not "stupid" at all. Speaking as someone with a rather poor short-term memory, I'd really rather just be able to look at your army and recognise what's going on and where. I don't want to have to refer to a piece of paper every few minutes to understand this sort of stuff. And, like I said in my previous post, it's easy to forget that certain things have or don't have a particular piece of wargear if they aren't modelled appropriately. If I don't realise that it's those red-painted dudes who have the meltas (and not the flamers like I thought), then I obviously would not have parked my Rhino right in front of them and not popped smoke. See my point? It's less about people pulling dodgy moves and swapping wargear around models, IMHO, and more about simply being able to look at the table and understand at a glance what the threats are and where.

And then there's the issue of cinematic quality. I like my games to look right. Maybe not everything is fully painted, but at least things look somewhat like what they're supposed to represent. It kind of kills the immersion for me if your Cyclone Missile Launcher guy is just a regular Terminator with a different coloured hand, that sort of thing. I'll live, of course, but it's nice to see actual representative models; it just looks good.

As for having to buy boxes for unsupplied weapons, that's the beauty of bits sites and swapping bits amongst friends. Heck, I've seen even GW stores open up its bits boxes for customers to swap from, and my local gaming club has a communal bits box as well. There are plenty of options here.

pretre wrote:

snakel wrote:WYSIWYG is stupid to be honest.

Yeah... No.

WYSIWYG benefits the person across the table from you.

Not only that, it benefits you too. Some people might be able to play from lists alone, using markers for all models. But many of us can use the modelled meltagun or power sword (for example) in order to actually remember which model has what and maybe not remove him as the first casualty. And there's model placement too - if all models are alike but one supposedly has a special weapon what's to stop you drawing LOS from the model that most benefits from it? I want the weapons there in order to remember which of my models has the stuff, I can't be arsed to also keep track of which of my opponent's models has a special weapon or not.

Let's not forget that this is a game that places some importance on immersion.

Fluff, fun and.....yes, the models....are all important.

God I have just played a game against a necron player who not only was proxying some stuff "fine in the case of the nightsythes as they hadnt come out just yet" but also didnt write down his list so at one point he couldnt even remember all of his wargear choices. Didnt matter though my guard whipped the board with him but still.

So i want a full Dev squad with MM can i do that if i buy 1 box ? NO but the codex says i can give them all MM so why are all the wargear options not in the box ? and who is benefiting here form WYSIWYG?

Sorry for me to put a rule in a book then not supply stuff making people buy more to be within the rules is wrong I.E stupid .

As i have said before for tournaments and competitive games WYSIWYG wins !!!!! but in games that are for fun i ignore WYSIWYG , buts that's just me

To be honest, I don't even know what half the weapons actually are. The only weapons I can look at and say it is this weapon or that weapon with any certainty are Nids and Eldar. And thats only because I play them. I can make a good guess as to what some of the other weapons are, but...

snakel wrote:So i want a full Dev squad with MM can i do that if i buy 1 box ? NO but the codex says i can give them all MM so why are all the wargear options not in the box ? and who is benefiting here form WYSIWYG?

There are plenty of kits that don't have all the WYSIWYG options. It is part of the hobby to kitbash, bits scrounge and otherwise make do to make your models. Welcome to it. Again, you and the player you are playing benefit from it.

Sorry for me to put a rule in a book then not supply stuff making people buy more to be within the rules is wrong I.E stupid .

How is this rule any different from any other rule? All of them are part of the game to make you buy stuff to have an army.

snakel wrote:So i want a full Dev squad with MM can i do that if i buy 1 box ?

So if I want a whole 2000 point army can I do that if I buy the codex and create the list?
No?
Well that's stupid.

You don't need to model standard gear, but you should, as per the terms of WYSIWYG, model any non-standard stuff.

For example, a tactical marine comes with a bolt pistol and bolt gun, but he doesn't have to have either on the model. You could have a unit of 9 tacticals that are flipping off the enemy with both hands, they still have a bolt pistol and bolt gun.

rigeld2 wrote:

snakel wrote:So i want a full Dev squad with MM can i do that if i buy 1 box ?

So if I want a whole 2000 point army can I do that if I buy the codex and create the list?
No?
Well that's stupid.

This could go on forever but lets say you bought a land raider and when opening the box you find no weapons that would be OK by you ,but not me !

If i buy a box of a certain type of unit, I expect it to have in the box all the parts i need to make that unit however i want as per the codex , since it does not i would have to proxy or spend extra cash that i may or not be able to afford .

So like many people , I ignore WYSIWYG

It is my opinion that WYSIWYG( while being Fluffy and setting the scene which i like just as much as most) was put in the book as a rule to pries more cash from people since all the options available to a unit are not always in the box for certain units when you buy them.

As i have said though were i to play a tournament or competitive game i would adhere to WYSIWYG ,but since i don't i wont

snakel wrote:If i buy a box of a certain type of unit, I expect it to have in the box all the parts i need to make that unit however i want as per the codex , since it does not i would have to proxy or spend extra cash that i may or not be able to afford .

You know how I know you haven't been in 40k for long?

If it is a friendly game, proxying is okay, but not desired.

snakel wrote:This could go on forever but lets say you bought a land raider and when opening the box you find no weapons that would be OK by you but not me ?

If that's the standard of how they release kits, yes.
Just like if I bought a Rhino because I wanted to waste money, and decided to field it as a Razorback, I'd be okay with having to buy that separate sprue.

If i buy a box of a certain type of unit, I expect it to have in the box all the parts i need to make that unit however i want as per the codex , since it does not i would have to proxy or spend extra cash that i may or not be able to afford .

Your expectations aren't really relevant - I don't think there's a unit in the game that's ever included everything in the box. Maybe some Nid kits, but that's because they don't have many options anymore.

So like many people , ignore WYSIWYG

I'd question how you got the "many" in there, but I'll let you have it.

It is my opinion that WYSIWYG( while being Fluffy and setting the scene which i like just as much as most) was put in the book as a rule to pries more cash from people since all the options available to a unit are not always in the box for certain units when you buy them.

WYSIWYG in the rulebook only applies to characters, so it's not a money grubbing scheme. As far as I know, most/all characters come with all their options anyway.

As i have said though were i to play a tournament or competitive game i would adhere to WYSIWYG ,but since i don't i wont

And you'll be a difficult opponent to play as well. Depending on how closely you've gotten to WYSIWYG I'd opt to not play against you - not because you're you, but I don't feel like I should have to remind myself every movement phase that the red guys have flamers and the blue guys have plasma, while the yellow guys have Heavy Bolters.

snakel wrote:
If i buy a box of a certain type of unit, I expect it to have in the box all the parts i need to make that unit however i want as per the codex , since it does not i would have to proxy or spend extra cash that i may or not be able to afford .

This is a false expectation. This has never been valid or the case for GW or many other wargames. They come with parts to make most options, but not spam them to high hell in every configuration. It would be prohibitivley expensive to make a devastators box with 4 sets of every weapon.

You would have hated life when they didn't even make parts for all weapon options, now they make almost all the options and just one or two per box. By your standard, a NOB boxed set would need:
5 PKs
5 Sluggas
5 TL shootas
5 Combiskorchas
5 Combi Rokkits
5 Big Choppas
5 Choppas
5 ammo runts
5 bosspoles
5 sets of cybork limbs
5 sets of extra 'eavy armor

The box would have 9 sprues and cost the same as a land Raider

WYSIWYG makes the game easier to play. It is not a cash grab. The game becomes unreasonable when too many proxies are used and it is unfair to opponents to burden them with more than the occasional swap.

Heck, a Tactical Squad would have:
a flamer, meltagun, plasmagun, Heavy bolter, MM, Plasma Cannon, Lascannon, Chainsword, Combimelta, combiplasma, combiflamer, storm bolter, plasma pistol, power weapon, power fist, melta bombs

Yikes. And don't even get started on Devastators:
4 Heavy Bolters, 4 Multimeltas, 4 missile launchers, 4 plasma cannons, 4 lascannons, Chainsword, Combimelta, combiplasma, combiflamer, storm bolter, plasma pistol, power weapon, power fist, melta bombs.

You'd go insane with extra bits.

Well the GK boxes tend to come with just about everything, but everything else is kinda meh for bits.

They come with some of everything, but not enough to do every possible configuration, right?

rigeld2 wrote:
And you'll be a difficult opponent to play as well. Depending on how closely you've gotten to WYSIWYG I'd opt to not play against you - not because you're you, but I don't feel like I should have to remind myself every movement phase that the red guys have flamers and the blue guys have plasma, while the yellow guys have Heavy Bolters.

Yes for you WYSIWYG is a must that's fine, but i don't mind wondering what that units got or forgetting things ,since for me playing people with the same take on the game makes for better games.

I wont play tournaments or competitively because for me this is a hobby i do once or twice a week and i don't have the drive or desire to compete at higher levels

pretre wrote:
You know how I know you haven't been in 40k for long?

If it is a friendly game, proxying is okay, but not desired.

Wrong!!! been playing on and off since 2004

The people i play with all allow proxying and always will

We all try to use WYSIWYG but its not always possible for everyone so we accept that and play with proxies

I don't play competitive or tournaments so WYSIWYG would only matter if someone had problems with proxying

rigeld2 wrote:

snakel wrote:So i want a full Dev squad with MM can i do that if i buy 1 box ?

So if I want a whole 2000 point army can I do that if I buy the codex and create the list?
No?
Well that's stupid.

Actually you can. you have seen these necrons before yes?

<Asked, answered, and going way off-topic for YMDC>