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Hi guys

I was perusing the new rules in WD and noted that you are only allowed to attach a single stormtalon to a particular unit as an escort. So far so simple.

Now what about transported units? For example could you have a terminator squad in a land raider and attach a stormtalon to each unit? The terminators are in a hazy place as they are being transported but they are in play once the transport turns up.

Both the terminators and the land raider arrive on the same roll as would the 'talons. Thats a big chunk of points coming in on a single roll. Can Marines get anything to help with reserve rolls?

To asnwer your last question....because I wont touch the first part with a 10 foot stick.

Chief Librarian Tigurius lets you reroll failed reserve rolls.

Flinty wrote:
Now what about transported units? For example could you have a terminator squad in a land raider and attach a stormtalon to each unit? The terminators are in a hazy place as they are being transported but they are in play once the transport turns up.

Ok so I'll drop my opinion with the foreword that I very easily could be wrong, but this is my best guess.

Using the faq from the main rulebook on shooting:
Q: Must passengers fire at the same target that their
vehicle is firing at? (p66)
A: No, they are a separate unit (albeit they are
temporarily co-existing with the vehicle) and so can fire
at a different target.
I would say that this defines the unit being transported (the terminators) as a seperate unit than the vehicle they are inside (the land raider). This would continue to make sense if you consider the deployment for dawn of war where you only get two troops units such as a squad and their transport. With each being a seperate unit I don't see why you couldn't attach a stormtalon to each unit and have them all show up on one dice roll.

Flinty wrote:
Both the terminators and the land raider arrive on the same roll as would the 'talons. Thats a big chunk of points coming in on a single roll. Can Marines get anything to help with reserve rolls?

I agree with Lightcavalier here that Tigurius would work. Other than him...I can't think of anything.

Flinty wrote:Now what about transported units? For example could you have a terminator squad in a land raider and attach a stormtalon to each unit? The terminators are in a hazy place as they are being transported but they are in play once the transport turns up.

Hazy is a good word for it - this'll require an FAQ I think.
I'm inclined to say only one escort, but that's written in sand with a finger so I could easily change my mind.

Do you roll reserve rolls for the Terminators in the Land Raider or just for the Land Raider? (Hint: The answer is just the Land Raider.)

No, you cannot attach a Stormtalon to a transported squad.

And there's the two sides to the argument.
It's one reserve roll, so only one escort.
It's two units, and the Escort rule isn't tied to a reserve roll it's tied to a unit. So two escorts.

Time for asking TOs.

Personally I'd side with the One escort argument.

Two seems like blatant loopholing to me.

rigeld2 wrote:And there's the two sides to the argument.
It's one reserve roll, so only one escort.
It's two units, and the Escort rule isn't tied to a reserve roll it's tied to a unit. So two escorts.

Time for asking TOs.

How many units are moving onto the board? If there were two ICs attached to the Terminators would you call it 4 units? If the Land Raider is moving onto the board and is 3" onto the board when it immobilizes itself and dies for not moving on the board completely, what happens to the Terminators inside? At the time that the Reserve roll is made, there is only one unit, and that's where we apply the Escorts rule.

There are always at least two sides to an argument; but there is generally one correct answer to a rules question. Argue all you want; I'll stick to answering the question.

jwolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:And there's the two sides to the argument.
It's one reserve roll, so only one escort.
It's two units, and the Escort rule isn't tied to a reserve roll it's tied to a unit. So two escorts.

Time for asking TOs.

How many units are moving onto the board? If there were two ICs attached to the Terminators would you call it 4 units? If the Land Raider is moving onto the board and is 3" onto the board when it immobilizes itself and dies for not moving on the board completely, what happens to the Terminators inside?

2. There is a unit inside another unit - they co-exist.
Yes, that'd be 4 units moving onto the board.
Everything inside is destroyed. I'm not sure what the point of this question is.

At the time that the Reserve roll is made, there is only one unit, and that's where we apply the Escorts rule.

Actually no - there's 2 units with one reserve roll. Because the rules say that embarked units don't have to roll, they come in with their transport.

There are always at least two sides to an argument; but there is generally one correct answer to a rules question. Argue all you want; I'll stick to answering the question.

Again with the hostility All I've done is pointed out that there's two ways to argue this. There are many, many arguments in 40k that have two sides with solid rules support. RPJ and flat out, for instance. JotWW into CC for instance (sorry, couldn't resist).

Your assertion that you are right and cannot be wrong is frustrating.

jwolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:And there's the two sides to the argument.
It's one reserve roll, so only one escort.
It's two units, and the Escort rule isn't tied to a reserve roll it's tied to a unit. So two escorts.

Time for asking TOs.

How many units are moving onto the board?

2 units. Albeit 2 units that are temporarily co-existing with each other.

If there were two ICs attached to the Terminators would you call it 4 units?

Not it would still be 2 units as the ICs are considered normal members of the Terminators for all purposes

If the Land Raider is moving onto the board and is 3" onto the board when it immobilizes itself and dies for not moving on the board completely, what happens to the Terminators inside?

They have to disembark. If they are unable to, they are destroyed.

At the time that the Reserve roll is made, there is only one unit, and that's where we apply the Escorts rule.

That means the Land Raider would have to be embarked upon itself, would only be able to move 6", etc.

There are always at least two sides to an argument; but there is generally one correct answer to a rules question. Argue all you want; I'll stick to answering the question.

As rigeld already answered the question? This is a rule that ca be interpreted either way. Personally, I would play it "counts as" a single unit.

In my opinion it would depend on how the units were purchased. If the Landraider is a Dedicated Transport then one escort. IF Landraider is a Heavy choice, 2 escorts.

tdwg83 wrote:In my opinion it would depend on how the units were purchased. If the Landraider is a Dedicated Transport then one escort. IF Landraider is a Heavy choice, 2 escorts.

How would how they are purchased make any difference to the question? I'd really like to understand your reasoning.

jwolf wrote:How many units are moving onto the board?

Two units that co-exist are moving onto the board.

jwolf wrote:At the time that the Reserve roll is made, there is only one unit, and that's where we apply the Escorts rule.

This part is 100% false.

I do not see how you can say it is only one unit, when the LR and the Terminators are clearly two different units.

E.G. in Dawn of war, if those terminators were a troops choice, you could deploy them embarked in their dedicated transport and that would be your two troops choices you are allowed to deploy. Page 93 BRB

Completely off topic and irrelevant to the discussion, for which I apologize, but I felt this should be clarified.

Happyjew wrote:

If the Land Raider is moving onto the board and is 3" onto the board when it immobilizes itself and dies for not moving on the board completely, what happens to the Terminators inside?

They have to disembark. If they are unable to, they are destroyed.

I do not believe they have an opportunity to try and disembark. The vehicle is not wreaked, it is simply destroyed and removed from play. See the rulebook FAQ.

Q: Can a vehicle that is moving on from reserves
perform a tank shock? (p68)
A: Yes it can, declare the distance it is going to move
along with its direction and move the tank onto the
board that many inches, measuring from the board
edge as for a normal from reserve. The tank shock is
performed as usual. However, if the tank is forced to
stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the
board then the vehicle, and any embarked units, count
as destroyed and are removed from play.

If a land raider full of terminators can take two stormtalons, wouldn't that make an IC and a squad in reserve be able to take two stormtalons as well?

RE: OP, I believe that you can take one stormtalon per unit coming in from reserve. The terminator is a separate unit from the land raider. The fact that they are roll for at the same time is because the rulebook allow them to do so.

The way I see it:

its PER unit, so land raider is one unit, terminators are another unit so 2 can escort. As for the IC's no, because they become a part of the terminator unit

DeathReaper wrote:

jwolf wrote:At the time that the Reserve roll is made, there is only one unit, and that's where we apply the Escorts rule.

This part is 100% false.

I do not see how you can say it is only one unit, when the LR and the Terminators are clearly two different units.

E.G. in Dawn of war, if those terminators were a troops choice, you could deploy them embarked in their dedicated transport and that would be your two troops choices you are allowed to deploy. Page 93 BRB

Dawn of War being entirely unrelated to the question, I'll ignore that except to offer you a red herring.

We're rolling how many dice for the Land Raider with Terminators and ICs inside coming on from Reserve? One? So we're making one Reserve roll. And the guys inside die if the Land Raider doesn't get all the way on the board - which is not what would happen if the Land Raider rolled onto the board and died fully on the board, because the units inside have no separate existence until the entering unit has successfully made it onto the board. Not to say there aren't grounds for calling a Land Raider with terminators and 2 ICs in it 4 units - certainly you'd lose 4 KP if they didn't get onto the board. But for the circumstances of entering play, only one unit is entering until that first unit successfully makes it onto the board - and this is where we're calling Escorts in, for entering play.

I apologize for not getting all long-winded earlier and hope that my position is clear now.

ToBeWilly wrote:Completely off topic and irrelevant to the discussion, for which I apologize, but I felt this should be clarified.

Happyjew wrote:

If the Land Raider is moving onto the board and is 3" onto the board when it immobilizes itself and dies for not moving on the board completely, what happens to the Terminators inside?

They have to disembark. If they are unable to, they are destroyed.

I do not believe they have an opportunity to try and disembark. The vehicle is not wreaked, it is simply destroyed and removed from play. See the rulebook FAQ.

Q: Can a vehicle that is moving on from reserves
perform a tank shock? (p68)
A: Yes it can, declare the distance it is going to move
along with its direction and move the tank onto the
board that many inches, measuring from the board
edge as for a normal from reserve. The tank shock is
performed as usual. However, if the tank is forced to
stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the
board then the vehicle, and any embarked units, count
as destroyed and are removed from play.

I knew I was missing something somewhere. I couldn't find it so I assumed incorrectly. Thanks for the correction.

@jwolf, so you claim they are 1 unit. Which means the Land Raider can only move 6" (speed of the slowest model in the unit), unless coming in through difficult terrain (in which case it could be as low as 1"). Also, I expect your Land Raider to be embarked upon itself.

jwolf wrote:But for the circumstances of entering play, only one unit is entering until that first unit successfully makes it onto the board - and this is where we're calling Escorts in, for entering play.

I apologize for not getting all long-winded earlier and hope that my position is clear now.

It is clear, clear that your position is incorrect.

The Terminators and the Land raider are never one unit.

They are two separate units, because if they were one unit they would have to fire at the same thing, and they would only be one unit for DoW deployment. But they do not, and they are not.

Not sure how you are getting such a simple rules concept incorrect.

Note how the FaQ says they are two separate units:

Q: Must passengers fire at the same target that their
vehicle is firing at? (p66)

A: No, they are a separate unit (albeit they are
temporarily co-existing with the vehicle) and so can fire
at a different target.

Confirmation that passengers and "their vehicle" are separate units.

BRB 94 wrote:Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together.

See how it says "unit and transport"? That means 2 units, because the transport is a unit.

The argument that only a single reserve roll is happening and thus only a single escort can happen is still valid, however (in my opinion).

DeathReaper wrote:

jwolf wrote:But for the circumstances of entering play, only one unit is entering until that first unit successfully makes it onto the board - and this is where we're calling Escorts in, for entering play.

I apologize for not getting all long-winded earlier and hope that my position is clear now.

It is clear, clear that your position is incorrect.

The Terminators and the Land raider are never one unit.

They are two separate units, because if they were one unit they would have to fire at the same thing, and they would only be one unit for DoW deployment. But they do not, and they are not.

Not sure how you are getting such a simple rules concept incorrect.

Note how the FaQ says they are two separate units:

Q: Must passengers fire at the same target that their
vehicle is firing at? (p66)

A: No, they are a separate unit (albeit they are
temporarily co-existing with the vehicle) and so can fire
at a different target.

Confirmation that passengers and "their vehicle" are separate units.

We agree once the Land Raider is on the board. Where we disagree is when the Land Raider is entering play. Normally if a transport is destroyed the guys inside have some consequences but generally can at least try to disembark. Entering play, they're just dead. So at the moment things are entering play from Reserves, the general rules for models which are in play are not active - we're looking at the specific case for models / units entering play. Until the transport enters play, everything that happens to the transport happens to the unit inside. (deep striking off the board, for example). We only treat the units as separate entities once the transport is legally in play. Since the Escorts rule is related to the models entering play from Reserves, only those units which "count" matter, and the contents of the transport don't have a separate existence. In every functional sense there are no Terminators until their ride successfully enters play - they don't roll for Reserves, they can't move on their own, they can't disembark their vehicle, pretty much everything except being a KP that makes them a unit in the game is not available to them. In the penalty arena, they are bound by bad things that happen to their transport and have no unique identity.

If you think I'm missing a basic rule at any point, you're misreading or engaged in wishful thinking. What's clear to me is that you're more interested in being right than being correct, and will use inapplicable examples to try to get there.

And you still haven't addressed any of the points brought up on the implications of them being 1 unit. You keep saying they are 1 unit but the only things you have to back that up, is that there is 1 reserve roll for them (similar to a Platoon Squad that is in reserve) and that if the transport is destroyed before it can fully get on the board, the embarked unit is destroyed as well.

Interesting points, guys. Having re-read the exact rules in the WD it does indeed look like you can stack stormtalons on transported units. Regardless of the "locational status" of a transported unit it does "arrive" with its transport and it is definately a separate unit, so 2 it is.

Also having checked the wording in the rule book ICs are also considered separate units in their own right, albeit units that can join other units. Therefore you could indeed have a nice big unit of terminators in your Land Raider, led by some hitty beast of an IC, each of which escorted by their own stormtalon all turning up on a single reserves roll that you can re-roll if you ahve Tigurius... Methinks that is slightly foolish

jwolf wrote:If you think I'm missing a basic rule at any point, you're misreading or engaged in wishful thinking. What's clear to me is that you're more interested in being right than being correct, and will use inapplicable examples to try to get there.

rigeld2 wrote:

BRB 94 wrote:Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together.

See how it says "unit and transport"? That means 2 units, because the transport is a unit.

The argument that only a single reserve roll is happening and thus only a single escort can happen is still valid, however (in my opinion).

Note that page 94 says that it's declared during deployment - so before the game even starts they're separate units. Calling them one unit is never accurate.

Wishful thinking indeed.

Getting Back on Topic of the Legality of this maneuver. (On the side of Rigeld2 and DR on this one)

I think it may be illegal for a different reason, though it may be because I can't find the rules quote Im looking for.

The Storm Talon's escort rule states that it has to arrive within 6" of the escorted unit.
Obviously you can measure to say the Land Raider, but where would you measure from for the Terminators?

I remember there being some allowance to measure all distances from the transport in the event that they are embarked,
but I cannot find this rule in the BGB.

If someone could point me to the quote I'm looking for that would be great, otherwise it would seem that you cannot
have a legal escort on the Terminators if for no other reason then you can't have them within 6" of the Storm Talon whilst embarked.

BRB 66 wrote:If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.

There ya go.

rigeld2 wrote:

BRB 66 wrote:If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.

There ya go.

Read right over it, knew it was there. Thanks dude.

They're two units. So two STs should be able to escort, though it feels a little odd.

ICs attached would not count, however, as the IC rules tell us that they are treated as part of the unit while attached.

What's nice is if the unit it's escorting is outflanking it can still tag along.

Mannahnin wrote:They're two units. So two STs should be able to escort, though it feels a little odd.

ICs attached would not count, however, as the IC rules tell us that they are treated as part of the unit while attached.

Do you think that means that a unit of scouts in a land speed storm could have two escorts as well. If so i think I want another storm talon.

Also as a salamanders player I wish i should have a multi-melta