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Putting together my 750 list and I have 5 Nobz with a painboy. I have the model for the painboy, so would it just be 20 points for the PB or would I have to pay 50 (20 for Nob + 30 for PB upgrade)?

you upgrade one nob to a painboy for +30 points so it will be 20+30=50 for the painboy

Ork Codex page 83. He is not an upgrade he is a replacement.

SalamanderMarine wrote:you upgrade one nob to a painboy for +30 points so it will be 20+30=50 for the painboy

Jraco wrote:No you don't. Ork Codex page 83. He is not an upgrade he is a replacement.

Here we go again. I say 50.

So wait, what's the question? I see no difference here. 1 nob then becomes a painboy and he's a 50 point model? right?

All is explained on page 83 of the Ork codex. It's 30 for a Painboy.

Jraco wrote:No you don't. Ork Codex page 83. He is not an upgrade he is a replacement.

I think you're missing the point. No one is arguing with you...

I may have come off argumentative. This is not my intent and for that I'm sorry.

Well, that's dumb. lol

Page 98
"One Nob may be a Painboy.........................+30pts"

Total = 20 (Nob) + 30 (Painboy upgrade) = 50

^ right there.

How would you get a Nob if you didn't pay the 20 points to begin with? With that the Nob may be a painboy for +30.

Why is page 83 ignored in the Ork codex? The Painboy is 30 points. Even Army Builder gets this wrong.

On page 83 it gives a unit composition. Then it states the points for the whole unit and upgrades. Using this information and the codex, you can find the Painboy point cost.

Make me understand why a Painboy would be almost as expensive as a Warboss.

If the codex says its a composition unit then it is only 30 points
If it is an upgrade its is 50 points its that easy(20+30=50 points)

One of the best written codices and we'll still be arguing/actually agreeing with each other until the next codex comes out, I mean it has been over 4 years already

It's GW's fault. It's clear when you take Nob Bikers let's say that they are being upgraded for +25pts from their base point value. They should have used identical wording if you were going to upgrade a Nob to a painboy for +30pts, saying you may upgrade your Nob to a painboy for +10/30 points.

Instead it's just "one Nob may be a Painboy"

I tend to think it means the Painboy costs 30 pts because it's missing the "Upgrade to" phrase.

I pay 50 for mine. How does it work in other codexes like paladin's apoth?

Same way. +75 points. So you have to buy a Pallie for 55 points +75 for the Apoth upgrade.

Paying 50 is the right way to do it. Its plan and simple.

You can not use the logic of other codices, especially from another edition.
Imperial guard has an especial wording

Clavix wrote:Page 98
"One Nob may be a Painboy.........................+30pts"

Total = 20 (Nob) + 30 (Painboy upgrade) = 50

Ok so going from this. Which is what it is in the codex. To make a painboy you must first have a nob. To have a nob you have to pay the 20 points. So by that logic you would have to buy the nob firstfor 20 points and "upgrade" him to a painboy for the +30 points that is written down. I am not sure why this is so hard to understand.

+30 is all you really need to understand. If it just said 30 then yes it would be a painboy is 30 points. Basically making the "FNP, Dok tools" 10 points.

I allways thought this was pretty clear cut.

To make a nob a painboy you must have a nob in the 1st place (so to speak)
To do that you have to pay 20 points.
You then have to pay for the upgrade (another 30 points)


However, if you want confuzzling, read the big meks entry and his ability to swap weapons.
You can have 2 klawz if you really want or mega armour (which comes with TL shoota + klaw) and then swap more out.

true about the Mek. That is a weird one for sure.

I know, yet the warboss that would benefit from it cant take 2 klaws -_-
I'd be more than happy to swap his TL shoota for a 2nd klaw as i can then get the extra attack :(

I understand that it's 50, I was just whining. I got an army builder, so it's kinda moot now, but thanks for all your help!

DamageContrl wrote:I understand that it's 50, I was just whining. I got an army builder, so it's kinda moot now, but thanks for all your help!

In this case Army Builder is wrong.

Ork Codex Page 83 unit comp. #5
*** This entry was literally written, included, and made by Phil Kelly, the person who wrote the Codex!

*Troops
Nobz x5 (2x Twin-linked Shootas, Power Klaw, Waaagh! Banner, Bosspole (Painboy, Grot Orderly)) = 190

*The reason it's a troop on page 83 is because of the Warboss leading them.

By the "logic" of the various people posting on this matter, this is what you would pay;

Elites
Nobz x5 (2x Twin-linked Shootas, Power Klaw, Waaagh! Banner, Bosspole (Painboy, Grot Orderly)) = 210

This is the unit comp. point cost if the Painboy cost 50 points.

The Painboy is not an upgrade. If it said "upgrade to" then you have a case. If the cost of a Painboy was not supplied in the unit comp. on page 83, you would have a case for him being 50 points. I have provided proof that a Painboy is 30 points. I will continue to be ignored however, so keep screwing your points up if you want.

Jraco wrote:

DamageContrl wrote:I understand that it's 50, I was just whining. I got an army builder, so it's kinda moot now, but thanks for all your help!

In this case Army Builder is wrong.

No. The phrasing in the codex itself actually says that one Nob may be a Painboy, indicating that a Nob is becoming a Painboy. It doesn't say 'a Nobz squad may be accompanied by a Painboy +30pts' If it did, you'd be right, but it doesn't. The codex says that you can have a Nob who is also a Painboy, in which case, he costs 20pts for being a Nob, and 30pts more for being a Painboy.

But anyway, If you are unsure it is always better to use the higher points cost so you avoid cheating your opponent by using an army that is possibly over the points limit.

GW really need to clear this up though, I might write to the FAQ team and ask actually.

Rampage wrote:

Jraco wrote:

DamageContrl wrote:I understand that it's 50, I was just whining. I got an army builder, so it's kinda moot now, but thanks for all your help!

In this case Army Builder is wrong.

No. The phrasing in the codex itself actually says that one Nob may be a Painboy, indicating that a Nob is becoming a Painboy. It doesn't say 'a Nobz squad may be accompanied by a Painboy +30pts' If it did, you'd be right, but it doesn't. The codex says that you can have a Nob who is also a Painboy, in which case, he costs 20pts for being a Nob, and 30pts more for being a Painboy.

Did GW make army builder? No they did not. By saying no to Army Builder being wrong, are you saying Army Builder is infallible? In this case it is wrong.

This has to do with wording, right? I have struggled with this just like you, except for the fact I have seen the picture on page 83 in the Ork Codex. A Codex written by Codex writer and GW employee Phil Kelly. It shows 5 Nobz standing there with a Painboy and a Grot with a big number 5 next to it. That's a total of 6 models, 7 if you count the Grot. Underneath that it lists the point cost for the whole unit with upgrades included. It's listed at 190 points. GW put it there. Wording or not, how do you explain the picture on page 83?

My whole issue with this is the 20 points I would be losing out on, because of people who would think Army Builder is the end all be all, or the people who would call me a cheater for using my Codex properly. 20 points may not be much to you, but to me it's an Ork Kannon or some Big Choppas, or whatever else. For Orks the list is huge.

Can you prove me wrong the way I have proved it right? Show me evidence I'm wrong and I will change the way I see it.

Jraco wrote:Did GW make army builder? No they did not. By saying no to Army Builder being wrong, are you saying Army Builder is infallible? In this case it is wrong.

I never claimed that GW made army builder, I am asserting that if Lone Wolf are charging you for a product then you would expect them as a company to check that they have got their facts right, and don't use 'GW have to release FAQs to correct the things that they get wrong as an argument, they are completely different companies.

Jraco wrote:on page 83 .......... It shows 5 Nobz standing there with a Painboy and a Grot with a big number 5 next to it. That's a total of 6 models, 7 if you count the Grot. Underneath that it lists the point cost for the whole unit with upgrades included. It's listed at 190 points. GW put it there. Wording or not, how do you explain the picture on page 83?

Wow, yeah well spotted. Hmmm, yeah that does seem to show that a Painboy is 30pts not 50. It's not the first time that GW have mixed up the points for a unit in an example army, but it does give you a good degree of evidence.

Now that you've actually elaborated on your evidence you've certainly strengthened your argument. I'm off to try and find the GW FAQ e-mail address now and see if we can finally clear this up.

Maybe you should read a few of the batreps in previous WD's then.
Most of them have incorrect points and one even has a dev squad as a fast attack option.

Still, it won't do any harm to double check. Rules queries can only be dealt with over the phone apparently and customer services closes in 25 minutes so I'll phone in that time.

EDIT: Ok, no, that's wrong, I was looking at an old page for customer services. They're closed on Sundays so I'll phone back tomorrow morning.

Hmm,

I would go with 50 points,

Talion is an upgrade, +50 making him a 72 point model?
He conveys stealth, a unit upgrade, just like priests and apothecaries. Chaos have Icons at up to +50 also. And all these unit conveying abilities are around +50.

I believe you can use the point system in multiple codex to see the balance in the game. Orks could use a Medic more then terminators could. But terminators would cost +75 while the Orks +30. The ability is given at +30 to a 20 point model. Need the model first, so 50 points for the medic.