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Hey, guys. Now that I've got Kantor and his little retinue done (mostly), I thought, for my next project, or at least a POTENTIAL next project, I'd continue the theme, and give another famous 40k persona a little war-band. At the moment, I know I have a BUNCH of choices, with all the good ICs and HQ choices out there, bu I've always been enthralled by the models that Papa Smurf and his posse have. Before I jump on that decision though, I'd love to ask you all your thoughts on them, in terms of in-game performance.

Edited for touchscreen/autocorrect shenanigans.

Powerful but *good grief* they are expensive.

Kain wrote:Powerful but *good grief* they are expensive.

I ha no doubt they would be. Clearly, between Calgar's Gauntlets of Ultramar, the Axes of Ultramar, and the champion, I'd think it'd be safe to assume that the gang would prefer to be in CC, but in terms of any special rules, what other units do they pair well with?

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Kain wrote:Powerful but *good grief* they are expensive.

I ha no doubt they would be. Clearly, between Calgar's Gauntlets of Ultramar, the Axes of Ultramar, and the champion, I'd think it'd be safe to assume that the gang would prefer to be in CC, but in terms of any special rules, what other units do they pair well with?

Typically a Calgarstar likes to be near other CC units or anything else that lets your hideously expensive unit get right in the other guy's face and start bashing it in, preferably a land raider in this case; which will run you up for even more points.

Calgar is absolute boss in 2k games. I borrowed my friends models and stuck with him some honour guard. All they had was relic blades,a rhino and a good orbital bombardment for giggles....

Kain wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Kain wrote:Powerful but *good grief* they are expensive.

I ha no doubt they would be. Clearly, between Calgar's Gauntlets of Ultramar, the Axes of Ultramar, and the champion, I'd think it'd be safe to assume that the gang would prefer to be in CC, but in terms of any special rules, what other units do they pair well with?

Typically a Calgarstar likes to be near other CC units or anything else that lets your hideously expensive unit get right in the other guy's face and start bashing it in, preferably a land raider in this case; which will run you up for even more points.

Calguard-raider deathstar, the latest and greatest advancement in fun, over the top bullgak! I can't wait.

Deepstrike/ drop pod calgar with CC terminators, forget the honour guard. Its a seriously disgusting unit as Calgar refuses to die

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Kain wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Kain wrote:Powerful but *good grief* they are expensive.

I ha no doubt they would be. Clearly, between Calgar's Gauntlets of Ultramar, the Axes of Ultramar, and the champion, I'd think it'd be safe to assume that the gang would prefer to be in CC, but in terms of any special rules, what other units do they pair well with?

Typically a Calgarstar likes to be near other CC units or anything else that lets your hideously expensive unit get right in the other guy's face and start bashing it in, preferably a land raider in this case; which will run you up for even more points.

Calguard-raider deathstar, the latest and greatest advancement in fun, over the top bullgak! I can't wait.

It may be perhaps the single most expensive tactic per model that a space marine codex can use, but hooo boy will it wreck face when it gets there.

I have a raider list my IF friend uses with lysander. This is modified for calgar....

Calgar
Armour of anticholus
Chaplain
Termy armour w/ stormbolter

Scouts x10
Snipers
Telion
ML

Scouts x10
Snipers
x10 Camo cloaks
ML

Elites
x10 hammer nators
Landraider Crusader
Extra armour

x10 LC nators
Landraider
Extra armour

x10 Hammer nators
Landraider Redeemer
Multi melta
Extra armour

Heavy support
Landraider
Landraider
Landraider
x 3 extra armour

This was the list he used in the afternoon apoc game. (except it was lysander and a libby)

List is illegal unless there is some sort of exception for apoc. You can only take one LR as a dedicated transport for assault terminators. You could take a squad of regular terminators and give them an LR as dedicated transport.

Diabolical13 wrote:I have a raider list my IF friend uses with lysander. This is modified for calgar....

Calgar
Armour of anticholus
Chaplain
Termy armour w/ stormbolter

Scouts x10
Snipers
Telion
ML

Scouts x10
Snipers
x10 Camo cloaks
ML

Elites
x10 hammer nators
Landraider Crusader
Extra armour

x10 LC nators
Landraider
Extra armour

x10 Hammer nators
Landraider Redeemer
Multi melta
Extra armour

Heavy support
Landraider
Landraider
Landraider
x 3 extra armour

This was the list he used in the afternoon apoc game. (except it was lysander and a libby)

...Emperor be praised, I think I just had an armor-gasm. I'm totally going to copy that for my first apoc list. I'll probably swap the scouts for tactical marines, though. Less squishy, I find.

Its asking for D-weapon madness it is.

Give Calgar the armor of ridiculous so he can ride around in rhino's and people call you hax
(Armor of anticholus isn't listed as terminator armor- its 2+ with 4++ and inbuilt teleporter, but doesn't say its terminator armor. So there's nothing to stop him from riding in a rhino! Except the GW Faq which im pretty sure fixed it. But if your friends don't know about it...
Armor of anticholus becomes armor of ridiculous )

Jihallah wrote:Its asking for D-weapon madness it is.

Give Calgar the armor of ridiculous so he can ride around in rhino's and people call you hax
(Armor of anticholus isn't listed as terminator armor- its 2+ with 4++ and inbuilt teleporter, but doesn't say its terminator armor. So there's nothing to stop him from riding in a rhino! Except the GW Faq which im pretty sure fixed it. But if your friends don't know about it...
Armor of anticholus becomes armor of ridiculous )

Yeah... Cheating isn't really my thing. Besides, the Land Raider fits perfectly for their face wrecking purpose.

Kain wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:Calguard-raider deathstar, the latest and greatest advancement in fun, over the top bullgak! I can't wait.

It may be perhaps the single most expensive tactic per model that a space marine codex can use, but hooo boy will it wreck face when it gets there.

Hey, it comes in at exactly 700 points (well, more if you want the raider to have some bling), but what you get is calgar with the gauntlets of ultramar along with 10 honor guard with relic blades.

In case you missed that, it's 31 S6 power weapon attacks on the charge followed by calgar throwing down 5 S8 power fist attacks on anything arrogant enough to survive.

Against basically any squad without an invul save, that's 17.5 models dead before calgar punches 3 more. That 20-man CSM squad? Gone. Utterly. One shot. See that 5-man THSS termie squad? Wouldn't even get a chance to swing their hammers. Heck, these guys even take down a WRAITHLORD without so much as a pause to catch their breath.

Of course, the problem is, as always, finding 700 points of stuff for them to mash before the game ends. And keeping them away from things that eat marines. 160 points of rough riders, for example, would take this entire death star on the charge...

As for the OP, I wouldn't bother, actually. Honor guard are pretty bad. What I'd do instead, actually, is to take a captain so that you can take a command squad. That way you can throw in a couple of storm shields to take some of the pressure off of calgar himself, and a couple of melta guns wouldn't hurt either, just in case. Most importantly, you can give calgar, and all his 2+/4++ beeftank awesomeness FNP. That's right, two calgars for the price of one...

Green is Best! wrote:List is illegal unless there is some sort of exception for apoc. You can only take one LR as a dedicated transport for assault terminators. You could take a squad of regular terminators and give them an LR as dedicated transport.

List has 6 raiders. 3 of which are dedicated transports and 3 of which are heavy support.

Diabolical13 wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:List is illegal unless there is some sort of exception for apoc. You can only take one LR as a dedicated transport for assault terminators. You could take a squad of regular terminators and give them an LR as dedicated transport.

List has 6 raiders. 3 of which are dedicated transports and 3 of which are heavy support.

Exactly. Check your codex again.

One squad of terminators is allowed to take an LR as dedicated transport.
One squad of assault terminators is allowed.
Where is the permission for the 3rd?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:In case you missed that, it's 31 S6 power weapon attacks on the charge followed by calgar throwing down 5 S8 power fist attacks on anything arrogant enough to survive.

The phrasing here is epic win.

Green is Best! wrote:

Diabolical13 wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:List is illegal unless there is some sort of exception for apoc. You can only take one LR as a dedicated transport for assault terminators. You could take a squad of regular terminators and give them an LR as dedicated transport.

List has 6 raiders. 3 of which are dedicated transports and 3 of which are heavy support.

Exactly. Check your codex again.

One squad of terminators is allowed to take an LR as dedicated transport.
One squad of assault terminators is allowed.
Where is the permission for the 3rd?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:In case you missed that, it's 31 S6 power weapon attacks on the charge followed by calgar throwing down 5 S8 power fist attacks on anything arrogant enough to survive.

The phrasing here is epic win.

Oh well. We werent paying attention to the FOC anyway Another veteran CF player fielded 5 sternguards and some other stuff(rifle man dreads,podding vanguards) Sad to say the crimson fists player lost because he couldnt get near the obj campin snipers!

Green is Best! wrote:

Diabolical13 wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:List is illegal unless there is some sort of exception for apoc. You can only take one LR as a dedicated transport for assault terminators. You could take a squad of regular terminators and give them an LR as dedicated transport.

List has 6 raiders. 3 of which are dedicated transports and 3 of which are heavy support.

Exactly. Check your codex again.

One squad of terminators is allowed to take an LR as dedicated transport.
One squad of assault terminators is allowed.
Where is the permission for the 3rd?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:In case you missed that, it's 31 S6 power weapon attacks on the charge followed by calgar throwing down 5 S8 power fist attacks on anything arrogant enough to survive.

The phrasing here is epic win.

This seems kind of silly... So I can only use One LR as a transport, and the rest MUST sit there holding nothing?

It can seem silly all you want. That is just the way the codex is written.

You can take 2 as dedicated transports provided that you take a squad of termies and of assault termies. The rest simply count as heavy support slots. You are allowed to place units in them, but they are not dedicated transports. So, rules like Khan's outflank would not be conveyed to them (but they would to the first two LRs referenced earlier).

As it stands, units can start out in their dedicated transports or in vehicles bought separately (i.e. heavy support). But a unit cannot start out in someone else's dedicated transport. So, you cannot buy an LR as a DT for a termie squad and deploy scouts in it. You may, however, have the LR start out empty and have the scouts embark on it turn 1.

Green is Best! wrote:It can seem silly all you want. That is just the way the codex is written.

You can take 2 as dedicated transports provided that you take a squad of termies and of assault termies. The rest simply count as heavy support slots. You are allowed to place units in them, but they are not dedicated transports. So, rules like Khan's outflank would not be conveyed to them (but they would to the first two LRs referenced earlier).

As it stands, units can start out in their dedicated transports or in vehicles bought separately (i.e. heavy support). But a unit cannot start out in someone else's dedicated transport. So, you cannot buy an LR as a DT for a termie squad and deploy scouts in it. You may, however, have the LR start out empty and have the scouts embark on it turn 1.

Ah, that makes more sense than just not allowing anyone to transport in an HS raider. Thanks.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:It can seem silly all you want. That is just the way the codex is written.

You can take 2 as dedicated transports provided that you take a squad of termies and of assault termies. The rest simply count as heavy support slots. You are allowed to place units in them, but they are not dedicated transports. So, rules like Khan's outflank would not be conveyed to them (but they would to the first two LRs referenced earlier).

As it stands, units can start out in their dedicated transports or in vehicles bought separately (i.e. heavy support). But a unit cannot start out in someone else's dedicated transport. So, you cannot buy an LR as a DT for a termie squad and deploy scouts in it. You may, however, have the LR start out empty and have the scouts embark on it turn 1.

Ah, that makes more sense than just not allowing anyone to transport in an HS raider. Thanks.

Besides, 5 Land Raiders is more AV14 than most lists can handle.

Kain wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:It can seem silly all you want. That is just the way the codex is written.

You can take 2 as dedicated transports provided that you take a squad of termies and of assault termies. The rest simply count as heavy support slots. You are allowed to place units in them, but they are not dedicated transports. So, rules like Khan's outflank would not be conveyed to them (but they would to the first two LRs referenced earlier).

As it stands, units can start out in their dedicated transports or in vehicles bought separately (i.e. heavy support). But a unit cannot start out in someone else's dedicated transport. So, you cannot buy an LR as a DT for a termie squad and deploy scouts in it. You may, however, have the LR start out empty and have the scouts embark on it turn 1.

Ah, that makes more sense than just not allowing anyone to transport in an HS raider. Thanks.

Besides, 5 Land Raiders is more AV14 than most lists can handle.

Lol, when I make/use LRs, that's generally what I bank on. Go big or go home!

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Kain wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:It can seem silly all you want. That is just the way the codex is written.

You can take 2 as dedicated transports provided that you take a squad of termies and of assault termies. The rest simply count as heavy support slots. You are allowed to place units in them, but they are not dedicated transports. So, rules like Khan's outflank would not be conveyed to them (but they would to the first two LRs referenced earlier).

As it stands, units can start out in their dedicated transports or in vehicles bought separately (i.e. heavy support). But a unit cannot start out in someone else's dedicated transport. So, you cannot buy an LR as a DT for a termie squad and deploy scouts in it. You may, however, have the LR start out empty and have the scouts embark on it turn 1.

Ah, that makes more sense than just not allowing anyone to transport in an HS raider. Thanks.

Besides, 5 Land Raiders is more AV14 than most lists can handle.

Lol, when I make/use LRs, that's generally what I bank on. Go big or go home!

The 9 leman russ demolisher charge. While it's likely to be the entirety of your army due to sheer points cost, you can bet that someone is going to cry by the end of the game.

If I saw 5 LRs and I was playing orks, I would probably not even deploy.

With my biker list though, it has a ton of melta. I would not fear it so much. I doubt you could kill my bikes fast enough before they delivered their payload.

And, I am sure there are some eldar / dark eldar lists with their lance weaponry that would deal with 5 LRs.

For the most part, this has been my experience:
When I run AV14, it is as flimsy as tin foil.
When I come against AV14, it is made of adamantium and cannot be destroyed.

Green is Best! wrote:If I saw 5 LRs and I was playing orks, I would probably not even deploy.

With my biker list though, it has a ton of melta. I would not fear it so much. I doubt you could kill my bikes fast enough before they delivered their payload.

And, I am sure there are some eldar / dark eldar lists with their lance weaponry that would deal with 5 LRs.

For the most part, this has been my experience:
When I run AV14, it is as flimsy as tin foil.
When I come against AV14, it is made of adamantium and cannot be destroyed.

Those bikes would be very tricky to deal with, but not impossible. I find LRs are essentially a ham move, and work best when going ham. The Raiders can't handle those bikes, but chances are, the Sternuards or Tactical Termies I'll put in them will help even the odds.

Granted, that's a TON of points. LR spam is by no means tournament competitive, but anyone who thinks the strategy isn't strategically viable is lying to him or her self.

Edited for touchscreen/autocorrect shenanigans.

Green is Best! wrote:When I run AV14, it is as flimsy as tin foil.
When I come against AV14, it is made of adamantium and cannot be destroyed.

This seems to be the general rule.

If you take them and decide to put them in a land raider, buy extra armor for it

Ailaros wrote:
In case you missed that, it's 31 S6 power weapon attacks on the charge followed by calgar throwing down 5 S8 power fist attacks on anything arrogant enough to survive.

^
This

Spartan089 wrote:

Ailaros wrote:
In case you missed that, it's 31 S6 power weapon attacks on the charge followed by calgar throwing down 5 S8 power fist attacks on anything arrogant enough to survive.

^
This

How does someone possibly quantify that much Killy? Is there a point where a unit is putting out so much damage that it doesnt matter how much it costs?

Land raiders?
BA can do that aswell

5 man assault squad with no packs.
Land raider of your choice.
Times that by 6.

3 more for heavy support.

Throw in some elites all with landies and your up to 12.

Points wise ..... erm, yea, we have an issue.



Edit, on a note of that killy unit, im trying to think of something that comes close to it 0_o

8 bloodcrushers.
Skulltaker on jugger.
herald of khorne on jugger with might.
herald of khorne on jugger with might.
herald of khorne on jugger with might.

Thats around the same points cost, but cant take a transport and only has 3+/5++
Does some damage though