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Basically wondering is it would be possible if orks could learn to genetically engineer? had a arguement with my friend that orks aren't slowed and can and do have some technology better than the imperium

Yes, they can and do occasionally trump the Imperium in therms of science. Teleportas are a good example of this.

As for true genetic engineering, they do it to a limited extent in the form of squig breeding, and constantly seem to breed new and more powerful monstrosities.

But as a general rule, like most delicate scientific procedures, true genetic engineering is going to be outside the scope of what orks try to accomplish. Meks are interested in bigga, fasta, louda, and more dakka.

I say as a general rule. There is certainly SOME room for aberrations, as there always is both in 40k and among orks.

Thanks for the reply, didn't think of the telportas, i also have down kustom force field as the imperium really doesn't have many mobile area shields =)

1) They have an instinctive ability to understand in a non-cognitive way how a machine works, and then orkify it.
2) Most of their technology is inefficient compared to other species, their effectiveness is undoubted.
3) Their shield and teleport technology has been mentioned as superior even to the Eldar.

Well meks arnt the ones that worry about genetic engineering, they focus on building machines and weapons, they really only work with the Ork organism when they are attaching junk to an Ork, or helping a Dok wire a boy into a Dread. Doks are the ones Id see more in line with experimenting on the genetic side of things. But yes they can be incredibly advanced, its crude as hell but it definitely works. The best (read most terrifying to everyone else) is they just have to believe that it works and it simply WILL work. So if they, for whatever reason, focused their attention on any form of genetics, that would be a terrible day for anything not Ork, because whatever they thought up, no matter how nuts, it would work that way. Theres a story somewhere in a codex, that mentions someone found some Ork guns after a battle, and when opened up to see how they make sluggas and so on, it was literally just filled with random metal and screws and dirt, that was it. Yet somehow it worked perfectly for the Ork wielding it, and not for the Imperial whatever that was examining it

Ork painboys know everything there is to know about Ork physilogy. They also know everything there is to know about altering an ork body with mechanical equipment.

The 2nd edition ork codex had body modifications that would never be possible on a human. It has to do with the inate toughness and redundancy of the ork body that allows such modification to exist in the first place.

As such, I don't think orks would be all that interested in genetic modification. Not when you can add a second mechanical lung just as easily in a few hours and get instant results instead of waiting generations for the biological to grow and mature.

Orks do do things like selective breeding for their squigs. I doubt the collossal squigaloth came around naturally or by accident but thats not the same as slowly modifing a body to be super fast. After all that isn't necessary either as Orks get stronger and bigger just by thinking about being aggressive.

In general, orks know or are good at the things they come programmed with instinctively. I don't think any ork, even an especially skilled Dok, would ever figure out genetic engineering, let alone the basics of medical science, because they don't apply any sort of scientific method to their work, they just do it. Why bother cracking the secrets of cellular biology when you have no real interest in actually healing your fellow orks, or understanding the secrets of life? "Sewing dis bit to dat bit" has worked just fine for the orks since time immemorial and produces hilarious, immediate results.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:In general, orks know or are good at the things they come programmed with instinctively. I don't think any ork, even an especially skilled Dok, would ever figure out genetic engineering, let alone the basics of medical science, because they don't apply any sort of scientific method to their work, they just do it. Why bother cracking the secrets of cellular biology when you have no real interest in actually healing your fellow orks, or understanding the secrets of life? "Sewing dis bit to dat bit" has worked just fine for the orks since time immemorial and produces hilarious, immediate results.

That's why I call it non-cognitive understanding. They don't think, they just know.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:In general, orks know or are good at the things they come programmed with instinctively. I don't think any ork, even an especially skilled Dok, would ever figure out genetic engineering, let alone the basics of medical science, because they don't apply any sort of scientific method to their work, they just do it. Why bother cracking the secrets of cellular biology when you have no real interest in actually healing your fellow orks, or understanding the secrets of life? "Sewing dis bit to dat bit" has worked just fine for the orks since time immemorial and produces hilarious, immediate results.

Unless your the mad dok who wants to make the perfect ork.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:In general, orks know or are good at the things they come programmed with instinctively. I don't think any ork, even an especially skilled Dok, would ever figure out genetic engineering, let alone the basics of medical science, because they don't apply any sort of scientific method to their work, they just do it. Why bother cracking the secrets of cellular biology when you have no real interest in actually healing your fellow orks, or understanding the secrets of life? "Sewing dis bit to dat bit" has worked just fine for the orks since time immemorial and produces hilarious, immediate results.

And yet they do innovate, as shown by the aforementioned Tellyporta technology being invented by Nasdreg's mekboys during the Piscina campaign. And Painboyz are mentioned to have a great joy for experimentation. So while progress might be less goal oriented or focused than in other factions, Orks do it too.

Doesnt their "Experimentation" involves amputating body parts and utting it on other bodies?

An ork gun that fires flawlessly in an orks hands will jam, break and instantly fall apart in the hands of any other species. The best way to describe ork tech is "Red ones go fasta". There sheer belief makes there tech work, as they can instantly work out how to use other races technology but nowone else can use theres i'd say there the second most advanced race for there tech, first being the necrons ofc as there building a weapon to reseal the warp and the orks cant really argue with that...

Personally, I would count replacing an ork's brain with a Squig as genetic engineering. It was pretty effective, too, just ask the people of Armageddon

Jidmah wrote:Personally, I would count replacing an ork's brain with a Squig as genetic engineering. It was pretty effective, too, just ask the people of Armageddon

Why would you count that as genetic engineering? They aren't engineering...genetics. That's what makes it genetic engineering. You engineer the genes and then grow something from it.

Now biological engineering they definitely do, as your example demonstrates..

In a word. Orkimedes. The orks are always a surprise on the battlefield. They can produce such mind bOggling things that shouldn't work but does. This comes from that they are actually pyskers. They are the ultimate form of "I think their for I am".

Nazgren wrote:An ork gun that fires flawlessly in an orks hands will jam, break and instantly fall apart in the hands of any other species. but nowone else can use theres i'd say

Both false, there's a lot of account of people using Orks guns when their lasgun ran out or when nothing else is avaible.

Even Orks vehicles.

Let's review. They paint their vechiels red to make them go faster. They paint if blue to make it harder to kill. What in the emperors name could cause such things?

Humans can, they won't benefit from color bonus or whatever gimmick they come up with, but there's plenty of people either driving an ork vehicle or shooting orks weapons for to beleive that they're not all that fueled by magical thoughs.

well...

Anyone can do that, its just not practical.

riplikash wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Personally, I would count replacing an ork's brain with a Squig as genetic engineering. It was pretty effective, too, just ask the people of Armageddon

Why would you count that as genetic engineering? They aren't engineering...genetics. That's what makes it genetic engineering. You engineer the genes and then grow something from it.

Now biological engineering they definitely do, as your example demonstrates..

They grow squigs and snotlings for all purposes. They even have different kinds of snotlings to make motor oil out of one kind and use another kind to extinguish fires.

Bobthehero wrote:

Nazgren wrote:An ork gun that fires flawlessly in an orks hands will jam, break and instantly fall apart in the hands of any other species. but nowone else can use theres i'd say

Both false, there's a lot of account of people using Orks guns when their lasgun ran out or when nothing else is avaible.

Even Orks vehicles.

What Nazgren said agrees with the thigns Ive read. Where have you read that says "Oh my lasgun stopped working, Ill use an Ork shoota" ? Because as mentioned, I believe it was a codex that brought up how any Ork weapon the IoM has experimented on just fell apart or jammed instead of working.

Jidmah wrote:

riplikash wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Personally, I would count replacing an ork's brain with a Squig as genetic engineering. It was pretty effective, too, just ask the people of Armageddon

Why would you count that as genetic engineering? They aren't engineering...genetics. That's what makes it genetic engineering. You engineer the genes and then grow something from it.

Now biological engineering they definitely do, as your example demonstrates..

They grow squigs and snotlings for all purposes. They even have different kinds of snotlings to make motor oil out of one kind and use another kind to extinguish fires.

That is a different topic than what I was discussing. Head and limb transplants aren't genetic engineering, they're surgery.

However, breeding and animal husbandry ALSO is not genetic engineering, again lacking the key component of engineering genes.

I think your tripping at the term 'genetic engineering', and the way pop-culture classifies any sort of biological engineering as 'genetic engineering'. There are numerous ways to modify biological life: breeding, surgery, prosthetics, cybernetics, pharmaceuticals, alchemy, symbiotism, psychic empowerment, nano-tech, etc. One method is genetic engineering, which involves altering genes and then growing a creature from said genes. It is likely what the Old Ones did (in combination with other techniques) to produce the Orks and Eldar. That isn't something we have ever seen the orks do (though I'm the first to admit, anything is possible with orks). They tend to lean towards the macro techniques like surgery, cybernetics, and breeding, avoiding the more subtle micro techniques (as usual) like nano-tech and genetic engineering.

Contrary to popular belief Space Marines ALSO are not produced by genetic engineering, but in fact by symbiotism, biological implants, surgery, and cybernetics. Genes define how something initially grows (and the SM organs were likely produced by genetic engineering), are aren't that useful once you have the thing.

A genetically engineered super solder would be one designed to be born as a super solder (Master Chief would qualify), not a human who was transformed into one.

KingCracker wrote:

Bobthehero wrote:

Nazgren wrote:An ork gun that fires flawlessly in an orks hands will jam, break and instantly fall apart in the hands of any other species. but nowone else can use theres i'd say

Both false, there's a lot of account of people using Orks guns when their lasgun ran out or when nothing else is avaible.

Even Orks vehicles.

What Nazgren said agrees with the thigns Ive read. Where have you read that says "Oh my lasgun stopped working, Ill use an Ork shoota" ? Because as mentioned, I believe it was a codex that brought up how any Ork weapon the IoM has experimented on just fell apart or jammed instead of working.

Ciaphas Cain and company rode a bunch of trucks around, armed the civilian with extra Ork guns.

The Catachans in Death World use Ork weapons well, to trick Orks, also because their lasgun were destroyed, IIRC.

Some of the Vostroyan might have used some in Rebel Winter, but don't quote me on that.

Basically, Ork machinery is half based on actual physics, and half on belief. Also no two peices of gear are the same, so one li'l humie may be able to get a shoota to work, but the next gun may turn out to just be a cardboard box painted silver...

Orks do have tech and can improve on it, but their tech is also founded in belief. God help us if they create a switch they believe can turn on/off gravity...

I though it was established that it needed at the very least to be an actual gun to fire.

Otherwise we're bordering on going full slow with Ork fluff, never go full slow.

riplikash wrote:A genetically engineered super solder would be one designed to be born as a super solder (Master Chief would qualify), not a human who was transformed into one.

For the record, I'm pretty sure all 3 Spartan Programs used modified humans as their base, not bred soldiers. Not sure about the upcoming Spartan 4s. They used bio-mechanical, chemical, and physcological augmentations.

Also, can someone elaborate on how Ork telly/shield tech is superior to that of the Eldar? I know Ork tech is alot better than it looks, but beating the Eldar?

Finally, people always bring up how Ork tech works partially because they want it to and know one else can use their weapons like they do. What about the Kroot? Back in the old Kroot armylist, there were a couple ork weapons that could be used. Was this for the sake of gameplay/flavour? Did the Kroot inherit the ability make things work through belief when they consumed Orks during the early part of their history?

Yeah, people keep running too far with this "ork belief makes it work" thing. The WAAAGH! effect helps smooth over physics. It makes machines more reliable, better cutting, stronger, faster, etc. It makes orks tougher, stronger, more desease resistant, better able to heal, etc.

But it's primary purpose is to smooth things over, not generate effects in and of itself. They can't just turn off gravity because they believe it. They can't become immortal because they believe it. Their heads can live of for a few minutes, or they can survive gastly wounds, but they can't just overcome reality.

In general, in modern fluff, their guns either work normally, or almost work normally and the WAAAGH! effects makes up the difference. But they need bullets, the bullets need powder, they need a firing mechanism.

It is true some of the older fluff had some funny stories like tech priests saying "I don't think this should ever have even worked, there is no ammo". And if you want to go with those older interpretations, fine.

In the current fluff that is generally chalked up to urban legends and tech priests not understanding ork tech.

Again, all fluff is true and all is false, so if you want to go with interpreting those pieces of fluff as literal and true, that's fine. But the current fluff makes it pretty clear that ork weapons and vehicles work just fine for everyone, but they are significantly less reliable and safe when not in the hands of an ork. Only a fool would attempt to use an ork burna, for example.



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acekevin8412 wrote:
Also, can someone elaborate on how Ork telly/shield tech is superior to that of the Eldar? I know Ork tech is alot better than it looks, but beating the Eldar?

Mainly in that the Eldar (and the Imperium) literally can't reproduce those effects. Safe, instantaneous, non-warp based teleportation is something only the Orks and the Necrons have reproduced. Same with shields. No other race besides the Orks and Necrons have been able to produce man-portable mass shield generators.

Finally, people always bring up how Ork tech works partially because they want it to and know one else can use their weapons like they do.

Again, only partially true. Ork weapons work for everyone, but work better for orks. There are plenty of examples of other races using ork equipment.

What about the Kroot? Back in the old Kroot armylist, there were a couple ork weapons that could be used. Was this for the sake of gameplay/flavour? Did the Kroot inherit the ability make things work through belief when they consumed Orks during the early part of their history?

The Kroot waged some major wars against the Orks, starting with the battle for their homeworld. It was likely their first exposure to firearms, so they used ork weaponry. Likely they quickly learned to do some improvements on it to make it more reliable.

But if you have never had access to firearms before even an unreliable Ork shoota is going to be a huge tactical advantage.

In theory(fluff-wise), an ork would need the following to have a gun:
a barrel/box
a handle
a small stick that comes out of the gun that will hit the ammo when pulled.
a small peice of metal or stone for ammo.
Orky majikz! XD


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But there are limits to this, obviously. The fewer the number of orks, the weaker the WAAAGH energy, the less the above gun will work.

One ork, or no orks probably will render this gun useless...



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Soo... following that logic, the more orks there are, the less their tech needs to rely on physics. (but must have a basis in it).