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I see a lot of request for a good 1500 points Nid list, so I thought I'd post this one. I won a smallish (16 people) tournament with it, defeating IG, GK, Eldar and a couple of other Tyranid armies on the way, ended up as the only undefeated player. Not the most competitive field, but I think the list is solid enough:

Tyranid Prime - Toxin Sacs, Bonesword&Lashwhip, Scything Talons

Doom of Malantai, Mycetic Spore
10 Ymgarl Genestealers
10 Ymgarl Genestealers

11 Termagants
20 Devilgants
Tervigon - Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Cluster Spines, Cataclysm
Tervigon - Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Cluster Spines, Cataclysm

10 Gargoyles - Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
10 Gargoyles - Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

76 models
11 kill points
1500 points

The Prime usually join the Devilgants and act as a charge deterrent. Gargoyles gives cover saves to everything, gets in the way and buys me time. FNP goes out to were it makes the most difference.

ok put up a video of a battle of your tryanids and a gk i want to see this

The tournament didn't have video cover of all matches.

To bad that would of been epic

Probably not, he wasn't very experienced. The IG guy was good though, much harder match.

Doom highlight from the IG match - Doom comes down, leeches a few Veterans in a ruin, pops a Chimaera with Cataclysm. Survives IG shooting phase. Leech a few more wounds, runs down a Leman Russ and pops it in close combat to secure the quarter.

I quite like it. Though I don't see the purpose of the Gargoyles... Usually I only see them if they're covering a larger flying unit (Flyrant, or Harpy)

N.I.B. wrote:I see a lot of request for a good 1500 points Nid list, so I thought I'd post this one. I won a smallish (16 people) tournament with it, defeating IG, GK, Eldar and a couple of other Tyranid armies on the way, ended up as the only undefeated player. Not the most competitive field, but I think the list is solid enough....

I got a few questions if you don't mind:
Why take Toxin Sacs on the Prime? The bone sword gives you instant death.
Why take TS and AG on the Gargoyles? You could save a couple points just running them naked. Or were you using them as a CC force?
Did you have any issues with tanks? Your list is kind of low on tank busting units.

Other than some concerns about anti-tank, the list looks pretty okay. I'd run it but I haven't got any Gargs.

Im thinking along the lines of fastus here.
How did you deal with any form of armour?
The only things in your army that can pen AV14 are the tervies, and doom.

And also, gargs are usually a flying screen for a MC, not really sure what use they have here.

Re: Gargoyles - they screen the Tervigons. You notice the lack of Hive Guards to hide behind? Yeah. Also, they are plain good and cheap, the upgrades are only 1 point each and they can glance most vehicles on the charge, go after infantry, bubble-wrap or speed-bump units I want to put on hold. Excellent utility units.

Re: TS on the Prime - it allows him to reroll to wound (at 4+), the Bonesword doesn't kill if you fail to wound. And a single Bonesword is not instant death, if you pass a Ld test. TS also help against MC's.

Re: anti-AV, my main anti-tank units are the Ymgarls, seems like many overlook them. They tear through everything except Landraiders. Here you can see them popping out of a ruin to make it a rough night for an enemy Trygon - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIynBI-A_jk

I don't feel the Stealers function well as anti-tank. Anti-infantry, sure, but the number of dice that need to be rolled to puncture tanks leaves much to go wrong.
Leaves a few other questions; did the Y'margl's Mutation and +4 armor save help much?
How many ways did you utilize the Gargs? You said they were utility, but what was the most common role they ended up playing?
Thanks for the help!

40 rending attacks usually sort out vehicles.
I like to pop +1T when I charge into terrain, works great.
I believe I mentioned a bit of what the Gargoyles do for me. But the main reason I included them was for 4+ Tervigon cover.

I usually find that a squad of 10 Ymgarls popping out of cover is great against tanks. Assault a Manticore, or Leman Russ with the +1 attack means more rends, or the +1 Strength means glancing hits as well as Penetrating hits. I second the motion, that they are generally overlooked.

Yeah it's nice to have the option of +1S, against Venerable Dreadnoughts or the Necron walker I usually morph strenght to be able to pen it.

I like the list. Ymgarls are excellent, and your opponent will learn to fear cover. I think a unit of GS to flank with is pretty essential for preventing the hide in a corner tactic many players favor against bugs, though the doom and pod are also some defense against it.

Yeah, between a decent amount of area terrain for Ymgarls and Doom in a pod, I can usually deal with corner huggers.

I am wondering how you deal with armour at range. You only have close combat anti armour, and that is rubbish.

Also, I am not sure if Gargoyles would give cover to the Tervigon model. The thing is huge, like double the size of a Carnifex. Gargoyles just about give cover to a metal foot Tyrant, but a Tervigon is way bigger than that.

I do think Gargoyles gives cover to the new Tervigon model (the gut hangs pretty low and make the center of the model lower than the T-fex), but I can't be sure until I've modelled one. I used conversions in the tournament back in february, and the TO's I know will continue to allow Tervigon conversions probably the year out.
But I wouldn't be surprised if true LOS cover saves are a moot point in a few weeks when 6th ed hits.

Rubbish anti-armour? I think it's enough. There's the Ymgarls with their 13-18" charge range from area terrain, and 18" charge, glancing Gargoyles. 24" potentially S10 pie plate from Doom. Devilgants can torrent glance AV10 vehicles at an effective 24" range. And there's terrain, cover saves, FNP and surviving, standing on objectives and waiting for the enemy to come to me.
If you're looking for a self-playing piano, you shouldn't play Nids.

I haven't faced many parking lots, but the IG army had 7-8 tanks. Turn 5 he had two left, IIRC.

I really cannot comment or offer any evidence as I no longer have Gargoyles nor a Tervigon model. I know when I had Gargoyles and a Hive Tyrant (metal foot one) they coverd the body, so legs and head were showing. The Tyrant is a lot shorter than a Trygon and the Tervigon is up to a Trygon's chin, so I doubt Gargoyles would cover it at all, really because it's back is so moosive. Those Tervigons are really huge!

That's exactly my point about anti armour. Close combat against vehicles is poor. Weapon skill doesn't come into it, and unless you''ve wrapped the vehicle totally, then the unit inside is going to bring justice. Gargoyles against vehicles? Serious lol, same with Devilgants as well, they are also -1 thanks to AP-. Everything what you said about cover saves etc also applies to the enemy, which is actually a survival factor not helping with anti armour.

No army is a 'self playing piano' (except G.K), however that's not the point and also a wrong term to say. The point this list isn't the most badass out there.

I see that your problem is you do not face much mech and that's why you think you can deal with mech. Try dealing with 13 vehicles which are mostly av12 facing, which have a mix of plasma guns, meltaguns, large blast templates, heavy flamers, lascannons and everything else in between. Then your Tyranids wouldn't be so hot.

N.I.B. wrote:I do think Gargoyles gives cover to the new Tervigon model (the gut hangs pretty low and make the center of the model lower than the T-fex), but I can't be sure until I've modelled one. I used conversions in the tournament back in february, and the TO's I know will continue to allow Tervigon conversions probably the year out.
But I wouldn't be surprised if true LOS cover saves are a moot point in a few weeks when 6th ed hits.

Rubbish anti-armour? I think it's enough. There's the Ymgarls with their 13-18" charge range from area terrain, and 18" charge, glancing Gargoyles. 24" potentially S10 pie plate from Doom. Devilgants can torrent glance AV10 vehicles at an effective 24" range. And there's terrain, cover saves, FNP and surviving, standing on objectives and waiting for the enemy to come to me.
If you're looking for a self-playing piano, you shouldn't play Nids.

I haven't faced many parking lots, but the IG army had 7-8 tanks. Turn 5 he had two left, IIRC.

This, Nids are not the best codex, but played well they can cause trouble for anyone.

Wow this is a really strange list.
It's not a generic internet-FOTM list and units aren't random... could this be? The list of a good player!?
ಠ_ಠ

mercer wrote:The point this list isn't the most badass out there.

I see that your problem is you do not face much mech and that's why you think you can deal with mech. Try dealing with 13 vehicles which are mostly av12 facing, which have a mix of plasma guns, meltaguns, large blast templates, heavy flamers, lascannons and everything else in between. Then your Tyranids wouldn't be so hot.

I never said this list is the most badass out there. I said that I won a smallish tournament with it and that it was solid, mr Strawman. I take it you don't play Nids anymore, but you seem to have a need to be right about something, so you bring up 1500 point lists with 13 tanks, like it would disprove anything I've said. Of course there are bad matchups and missions, sometimes in combination. But imo this list has enough anti tank during the course of several games and matchups. Your local meta may vary.

Just because S4 can't immediately pop vehicles =/= not anti-tank. Suppressing is usually enough - transports standing still, tanks not shooting.

unless you''ve wrapped the vehicle totally, then the unit inside is going to bring justice.

Unless, you know, half of them die in the explosion because it was popped by Ymgarls. Or they fail their pen test. Or a combination.

A bit of new Tervigon cover save discussion on 3++ http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/03/sky-isnt-falling-new-tervigons-again.html

Ok, that's fair enough and slight hyperbole on my part. What I should say is that it's not the most competitive tournament list out there and probably not the best example of a Tyranid tournament list.

Not sure why you're getting into name callings for. Is it because I don't think your list is worth a example of a Tyranid tournament list?

Of course 13 tanks would disprove what you've said. You said your army can handle armour, right? Well your list cannot handle that many vehicles, you even said yourself you only had a few vehicles to deal with. A army with 13 tanks disproves that your army cannot deal with serious armour.

S4 can't pop tanks and can surpress, you're right about that, but the squad inside (if there is one) can easily bail out and shoot/assault, of course providing they can. My point is it's not reliable anti tank, especially when vehicles should be moving to avoid been auto hit from a assaulting army.

If half a unit inside a vehicle dies, well that maybe the case, but the same will happen for Tyranids. If the unit inside fails pinning test or even morale, which maybe the case, of course you're counting that fail pinning or whatevers, which may not happen due to high leadership you see these days. Then another unit can still shoot the assaulting Tyranid unit, which you do not want.

Anyway, if you think this is good example of a Tyranid tournament, then that's fine. I respectfully disagree. Also, this entire debate is pointless as what a competitive Tyranid list is may change in a few weeks time

mercer wrote:Anyway, if you think this is good example of a Tyranid tournament, then that's fine. I respectfully disagree.

My third sentence in this thread was

Not the most competitive field

So yeah. But I'm not sure of what a Tyranid tournament is, tbh. A tournament with only Tyranids?

Why not be a little more constructive, mercer? I put this up there as I see a lot of newbies asking for a good 1500 Nid list. Imo this list is good. You disagree, and that's fine. So show us your tried and tested 1500 Nid list, for the benefit of the public.

And yes, the debate might be slightly pointless in the looming shadow of 6th ed, but I still see a lot of people asking for lists and advice.

My point is you're offering it as a good example of a tournament list.

I have been constructive. I've told you that you need more anti tank and I've also said I doubt Gargoyles cover Tervigons. I've also told you that the units you said are good for anti tank are not, because atm c.c against vehicles isn't too hot, however they may change in a few weeks if rumours are to be believed.

I don't need to put up a list, I'm not the one saying I have a good list. I don't have nothing to prove. If you want to see Tyranid lists, then there's several 2k ones floating about on my blog www.imperiusdominatus.com. You can take a look on there if you like.

I'm with Mercer on this one. Every unit you have is predominantly for killing infantry and some can kill vehicles as an afterthought. If someone wants to play foot marines then your list works, but anyone meching up is going to cause you serious problems and I'm afraid that mech is still the main staple of tournament lists regardless of how tough or otherwise the tournament is.

I don't think that the victory against a 7-8 vehicle IG list is going to be easily repeatable and I can come up with a dozen generic lists this will seriously struggle against. No troops on the floor when Doom drops in and he's dead before your next turn; Doom /devourer gant type lists need units to crack open transports for them and I can't see you doing that often enough and early enough. Never mind what you would do against dreadnaughts and they are not exactly uncommon ...

I wouldn't offer my own 1,500 lists up as worthy of aping and not sure you should either in this instance.

ruminator wrote:I'm with Mercer on this one. Every unit you have is predominantly for killing infantry and some can kill vehicles as an afterthought. If someone wants to play foot marines then your list works, but anyone meching up is going to cause you serious problems and I'm afraid that mech is still the main staple of tournament lists regardless of how tough or otherwise the tournament is.

I don't think that the victory against a 7-8 vehicle IG list is going to be easily repeatable and I can come up with a dozen generic lists this will seriously struggle against. No troops on the floor when Doom drops in and he's dead before your next turn; Doom /devourer gant type lists need units to crack open transports for them and I can't see you doing that often enough and early enough. Never mind what you would do against dreadnaughts and they are not exactly uncommon ...

I wouldn't offer my own 1,500 lists up as worthy of aping and not sure you should either in this instance.

+1 .

So you don't know what a good 1500 Nid list looks like, but you know this isn't one. Ookey.

There is no holy grail with Nids. You have to outplay your opponent to win, in most cases.

As for anti-mech -
Hive Guards are awesome, but I don't think a bunch of Hive Guards are better than 20 Ymgarls.
Zoans are nice, but too ineffective and fragile to walk and too random to pod, imo.
T-fexes are too expensive and deliver too little at 1500 points.

In a completely meched up environment my list would perhaps struggle. But I see less and less of that. Could you post that 1500 point 13 tanks list you talked about mercer?

The tournament winners I've seen the last year has been pretty balanced, although tournaments in my region seem to stay around 2000 points.

Problem with all those ymgarls is they have to start in reserve and have to come up in terrain. With 10 of them it will generally be pretty obvious, especially with 2 broods, where they will have to come up from. Easy enough to deploy away/bubble wrap for them and you have no reserve roll manipulation, so always run the risk of them coming in T3 or later ... For this reason I struggle to see how they can be the mainstay of your AV. Too reliant on opponent's bad deployment and a good reserve roll and if the ymgarls don't come in first then targets for Doom will be limited.

Those devourer gants can only glance rear armour from shooting and I'm not sure how they manage that in the first 2 turns of the game - tanks will have front/side armour facing almost exclusively. Gargoyles charging vehicles also seems pretty unreliable - that T3 and 5+ armour save generally results in them being shredded especially in broods the size of 10 models. If they move out of synapse range as well, which they would likely need to do if they are to CC tanks before being killed, then leadership becomes a real problem.

I did accept your list would work in a foot list environment, but I'm not sure how extensive this is outside your own local meta. There may be some more foot lists around, but many of those are Grey Knights and that's not a happy place for Nids to be! Footdar has seen a reoccurrence as well but there's still a lot of mech out there I'm afraid and as I said, you don't seem to have much to cope with dreadnaughts - the ymgarls won't touch them and, if you get tied up, your ymgalrs are generally more expensive than the dread.

I do have a good idea of main stays for 1,500 point Nid lists and have seen plenty in my time, but if I posted one as a "best list" then I would expect flaming in reply ... I've done the tervigon/hive guard thing and it is the the most reliable build for Nids for tournament play but I have moved on from being this cookie cutter and am always trying to experiment and see what else could work - mass stealers, null deployments, 5 tervigon lists and the like so I am far from a closed mind.

Ymgarls do have the random factor, perhaps more in the area terrain presence and location than which round they show up. If you bubble wrap against them, then it sounds to my ears that something fleshy is outside a vehicle - in other words in my world, were Doom and Devilgants want a piece of them, and perhaps can clear a way to the vehicles behind for the Ymgarls to hit.

Doom's targets will only be limited against completely meched up lists, but I like him more at 1500 than 2000 points. He's great against Loganwing and can be good against GK at foot.

I said Devilgants can torrent glance AV 10 vehicles. They are still common. AV 10 Skimmers, Landspeeders and such. Yes they are outranged, but still have a 30" threat range. I never expect my opponents to do mistakes such as turning the rear against S4 shooting. Also, transports like Chimaeras are AV10 on the flanks.

Gargoyles can easily run outside synapse. But if you stay inside your transport, shooting will be limited.
I had one unit immobilise a Chimaera turn 2, surround and wreck it turn 3, with the few models that could be placed spill out of the wreck. They are mainly there for cover saves, that they can threaten AV10 is just a bonus.

Ymgarls wont' touch Dreads? I don't know how you play yours, but that works just fine for me. You can morph +1S to pen if glancing to death is too slow. I don't usually mind that it sometimes takes more than one round to finish off a Psydread.

I never said it was a 'best' list. It is, however, a tournament winner, even if light on mech. And solid.

sounds like you coulda brought a ham sandwich, and fought with that, and won just the same.