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You can lead a horse to water...

I feel that some in this post are being a little harsh on N.I.B.

He has posted a list, stating that he wanted to provide a little guidance for newbs to Tyranids and that it had won a small tournament with some inexperienced players, that does not conform to standard "cut and paste" internet list builds and has an interesting composition.

I for one thank you for sharing your list and your tactics.

I can't offer any constructive criticism on the list as I neither play, or have recently played a Tyranid list, though wish I came across more.

Good luck

~BB~

N.I.B. wrote:Ymgarls do have the random factor, perhaps more in the area terrain presence and location than which round they show up. If you bubble wrap against them, then it sounds to my ears that something fleshy is outside a vehicle - in other words in my world, were Doom and Devilgants want a piece of them, and perhaps can clear a way to the vehicles behind for the Ymgarls to hit.

Doom's targets will only be limited against completely meched up lists, but I like him more at 1500 than 2000 points. He's great against Loganwing and can be good against GK at foot.

I said Devilgants can torrent glance AV 10 vehicles. They are still common. AV 10 Skimmers, Landspeeders and such. Yes they are outranged, but still have a 30" threat range. I never expect my opponents to do mistakes such as turning the rear against S4 shooting. Also, transports like Chimaeras are AV10 on the flanks.

Gargoyles can easily run outside synapse. But if you stay inside your transport, shooting will be limited.
I had one unit immobilise a Chimaera turn 2, surround and wreck it turn 3, with the few models that could be placed spill out of the wreck. They are mainly there for cover saves, that they can threaten AV10 is just a bonus.

Ymgarls wont' touch Dreads? I don't know how you play yours, but that works just fine for me. You can morph +1S to pen if glancing to death is too slow. I don't usually mind that it sometimes takes more than one round to finish off a Psydread.

I never said it was a 'best' list. It is, however, a tournament winner, even if light on mech. And solid.

I never said bubble wrap vs ymgarl. With 10 of them the terrain they will pop up in will be pretty obvious on most tournament tables. Deployment can then take one of them completely out the game.

How do they damage dreads in CC? You do know they attack walkers on front armour? How does S5 even glance Armour 12?

Devil gaunts won't do anything to side armour on a rhino chassis though.

Gargoyles cannot easily run outside of synapse. They have leadership 6; best of luck passing a leadership test on that. That IG player has issues if he let you immobilise a chimera one turn and then leave the gargoyle unit there without being shot at in their next turn. I don't think that's a realistic example of their abilities v transports and assuming they were outside of synapse your tactic revolved around rolling 6 or less on 2d6 which is hardly a sound basis to go forward with.

S5 cant glance AV12.
S5 rending can though.
However, remember they have to take either +1T or A the next turn as you cant use the same one twice in a row.
Which then leaves you at needing a 6 for the rend, then 3-4 to glance, 5-6 to pen.

I agree on devgants though.
Only time ive used them for anti-tank is against orks and DE, and thats simply because open topped allows me to kill it.
In the case of ork buggies, being a unit helps even more.

Average roll on 2D6 is 7, so even then your against the odds.
I agree with you on that one too.
S4 just really isnt a reliable way to get things done.

Jackal wrote:S5 cant glance AV12.
S5 rending can though.
However, remember they have to take either +1T or A the next turn as you cant use the same one twice in a row.
Which then leaves you at needing a 6 for the rend, then 3-4 to glance, 5-6 to pen.

I agree on devgants though.
Only time ive used them for anti-tank is against orks and DE, and thats simply because open topped allows me to kill it.
In the case of ork buggies, being a unit helps even more.

Average roll on 2D6 is 7, so even then your against the odds.
I agree with you on that one too.
S4 just really isnt a reliable way to get things done.

Thanks Jackal, completely forgot about rending again! My mistake. Still seems a tall order for them to get through the 12 armour as you say - either +1S or +1A and having to change each turn. They've got to kill it on the charge or they lose combat. Even with 30 attacks, there are only likely to be about 4-5 rends and then you need to roll another dice and hope for another good roll. And who's going to sit the dread within 12 or so inches of that large piece of area terrain when the opponent has 20 ymgarl?

DE? That's almost auto lose at 1,500. Too much speed and poisoned weaponry. You kill a raider with your gants and then next turn they get shot off the table.

ruminator wrote:Problem with all those ymgarls is they have to start in reserve and have to come up in terrain. With 10 of them it will generally be pretty obvious, especially with 2 broods, where they will have to come up from. Easy enough to deploy away/bubble wrap for them

ruminator wrote:I never said bubble wrap vs ymgarl.

Of course you didn’t…

ruminator wrote:With 10 of them the terrain they will pop up in will be pretty obvious on most tournament tables.

I would say 'most tournament tables (around the world)' is hyberbole. A few tables are too light on area terrain. Which I noted when I said 'Ymgarls do have the random factor, perhaps more in the area terrain presence and location than which round they show up.
But I wouldn't claim it to be obvious in that many games. In my experience area terrain has been generous in most of my tournament games. And for instance I think Nova Open use a terrain setup with at least four large area terrain pieces on every table.
And FYI they don't have to come from the same piece of terrain. And yes, they have rending. It's obvious you don't play Tyranids.

One great thing with Ymgarls on tables with a proper amount of terrain, is that many players react to them by trying to stay away or block some terrain piece, and it adds a mind game effect. They impact the game before they show up, in other words.

I said Gargoyles can easily run outside synapse. By that I meant they panic easily from casualties, just as you point out. The Gargoyles are mainly included for Tervigon cover purpose, and other things. Not as anti-tank. But you use what you have, and they aren't helpless against all vehicles. Advancing Tervigons can also have an 18" synapse if I deem it's worth to give up FNP for.

That IG player has issues if he let you immobilise a chimera one turn and then leave the gargoyle unit there without being shot at in their next turn.

IIRC he shot at them with a Russ, but I had cover save. And once inside IG lines, they tend to have a hard time dropping blasts. Plus, he had more pressing issues at hand.

Devilgants, same as Gargoyles. They aren't included to be anti-tank, but they aren't helpless against AV10. You use what you have.

Ymgarls vs Dreads

They've got to kill it on the charge or they lose combat.

Wut? Most Dreads have 2 attacks, that is one hit and wound per turn on average. In other words as long as Ymgarls produce a single roll on the damage table it's a draw.

who's going to sit the dread within 12 or so inches of that large piece of area terrain when the opponent has 20 ymgarl?

12 or so inches? Ymgarls have a 13-18" threat range, if you have to charge through terrain it could be a bit shorter. And a single piece? And it's large? Now you're assuming things. Plus, Ymgarls don't need a large piece of terrain. Just like disembarking models, it's enough if just a fraction of an inch is within.

DE? That's almost auto lose at 1,500. Too much speed and poisoned weaponry.

Agreed. Venomspam DE is almost autolose for Nids, regardless of build and point levels. It's just a silly matchup, in fact it’s the only matchup we don’t play anymore down at the club. Whoever designer that thought Splinter Cannons on Skimmers was a good idea, should have his head examined. The only build I’ve found that can start to compete at 2000 points is shooty null deployment, and even then it’s an uphill battle.

Anyway, I still want to see that 13 tank list at 1500 points that seems to be common in England.

I've played over 100 games with Nids. Just because I forget rending on ymgarls doesn't make me a noob, just a Nid player who doesn't use Ymgarls all that often. I didn't say they had to come up in the same terrain either, only that it's often obvious where they will come up from. I have nothing to prove. I'm not the one trying to tell people how great my list is ...

You seem to be flitting between gargoyles and gants aren't for killing tanks and how good they are at killing tanks. * confused * If charging a chimera on T2 they are hardly there for giving the tervigon a cover save and are probably outside of synapse. Surviving a turn of shooting and then passing a leadership test on Ld 6 is not a reliable tactic.

On ymgarls, if you have a mech list you would deploy away from likely terrain and bubble wrap if you have a foot list. I didn't intend to suggest that troops would deploy from transports. A foot/hydrid list can and will bubble wrap but most will just deploy where it's safe and/or toss you a cheap rhino. If I was looking at a tank more than 13" inches away then I would be careful about trying to assault it. You need to take your movement before the run roll, so there is a risk you can get stranded in no man's land with a poor run roll and sometimes that risk is not worth it, especially for an expensive unit. You don't have to deploy 19" away to impact on the ymgarls, certainly anything more than about 13-14" will make the opportuity of wrapping around it and stoppping the contents getting out very difficult. Then all you can do is kill a transport and have to survive the shooting of the contents the next turn. Generally not great. Sorry.

If your tournament terrain is decent and/or Nova style then lucky you, you are in the minority and most tournament terrain barely meets the 25% rule. Just read plenty of battle reports at tournaments and see the terrain in the pictures. Not personal hyperbole, based on feedback. Terrain is improving but still leaves a lot to be desired in many tournaments. From experience the likely lurk points for ymgarls are generally pretty easy for the opponent to guess, although I accept not always.

On dreads I do think you need to kill the turn you charge or you lose. Second round of combat you can't take the +1S for 2 turns in a rown so your left with rending and then rolling a further 5 or 6 to pen. Chances to hurt it are seriously compromised. You lose combat and have to take a leadership test (fearless wounds or running - neither are good), even if you remain in combat you've now a few less ymgarls ... and that's your best AV. Let's hope it's not a furioso dread ... Either way, the dread is cheaper than 10 ymgarls, so attrition works in his favour. You spend 2 of your turns in combat with a cheaper unit, you lose.

I never suggested a 13 vehicle list Mercer did, but here's a rough 1,500 mech IG list for you. Ignore troop loadouts for now:

CCS in chimera
3-4 vets in chimeras
3 vendettas
4 hydras
1 manticore

I can come up with plenty of 8-10 mech lists at 1,500 for vanilla Marines, SW, BA, GK, Eldar, DE and I can't see how this list has any chance against such lists. Do you really think that 8-10 vehicle lists are that uncommon? An IG list with 5 vehicles is a hybrid list not a mech list. A tournament list that struggles to deal with 5 or more tanks is not a good tournament list, sorry. I accepted that your list would work in a low-mech environment but the meta game is generally more mechanized than that.

I'm glad we agree that DE is a problem, but if you're looking at a tournament list then running into DE is a possibility you need to consider.

Ruminator - Its nice to see another aged nids player, makes a nice change from the "FotM" type gamers

However, i can see where he is going with Ymgarls.
I only started to use them as i was getting bored of either 2 hive units and a thrope unit or vice versa.

DE? That's almost auto lose at 1,500. Too much speed and poisoned weaponry. You kill a raider with your gants and then next turn they get shot off the table.

This is a good example of a game where Ymgarls come in bloody handy.
The DE player will be trying to keep near cover to keep the raiders/venoms alive, which makes it all the easier to get the ymgarls into combat with them.

And its hardly an auto-loss.
Only if you decide you want to monster mash a list.
4 Tervigons, each using catalyst on eachother works out pretty damn good.

DE: 60 shots.
40 hits.
20 wounds.
6 unsaved wounds.
FNP eats it down to 3 unsaved wounds.

So, they need to put 120 shots into each tervigon, i dont see that as possible at the points level.
All the time they are doing that, who is shooting the little guys that are building in number?
You simply swarm them with gants and let S4 borer do the job against AV10 open topped.



However, nids main issue is essentially the elites section.
Hive guard and thropes are pretty much a must.
Ymgarls im starting to like even more, so some times running a unit of all 3.

Then you have venomthropes, a nice protective coverage to your army, but no space.

Then lictors and deathleaper, again, great units for shock tactics, but no space in the army for them.
And against DE, S6 flesh hooks are nasty.
(3 lics, 6 shots, 3 hits, 4 glance, 5-6 pen and they are rending)
Not to mention being S6 in combat and having rending.
However, i cant afford to drop a unit to take them.
If nids had the force org section re-mapped, i could see them being an effective army with a few point drops. (lets face it, we all loved our 113 point fex's, screamer-killer or dakka)

Jackal wrote:

So, they need to put 120 shots into each tervigon, i dont see that as possible at the points level.

I run Venom spam and at about 1,200 points I can have 9 Venoms with six troop units and three elites. They can fire 108 splinter fire shots, while not 120, it's certainly a lot

Also, I am not sure if your maths is right, at least when firing 108 shots, which as you can see below will kill a Tervigon even with feel no pain. That's just poison btw, add blasters as well. However, that's a worst case scenario and probably not a list someone would take, at least not a list I would take, I would take less Venoms and add some Ravagers and Beastmasters, which makes a better balanced list.

108 splinter shots - 72 hit - 36 wound - 12 fail - 6 fnp - dead Tervigon

You did make a good point about the little bugs running rampant, however a Tyranid player may keep Termagants close to benefit from toxin sacs and adrenal glands, this will result in psychic back lash. And that's only Termies, not other things like Hive Guard or Hormies or something like that, though Hive Guard can be dealt with using blasters, if you can see them!

N.I.B, when I said 13 vehicles for some reason I thought 2,000 points, which is what I normally run. Here's a pretty mech'd up I.G list, which is pretty common:


Company Command Squad w/ Chimera 4 x plasma guns

Veterans w/ Chimera 3 x meltaguns
Veterans w/ Chimera 3 x meltaguns
Veterans w/ Chimera 3 x meltaguns
Veterans w/ Chimera 3 x plasma guns

Vendetta
Vendetta


2 x Hydra Flak Tank Battery
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Leman Russ Battle Tank

Ok, so it's not 13 vehicles, it's 11, which is close enough . This is a true mech list. True mech lists have 8-10 vehicles in them, really.

All this debates really for naught... Mech seems like it won't be as prevalent this coming ed with all the new rules, which greatly benefits some armies like nids. Even if mechspam is still common, won't be like it is now

Time will tell.

I like the list, I play one similiar alto for fun. I just happen to have a mixed lot of old school and new stealers to make it easy to do.