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Herald of tzeentch, chariot, bolt, master of sorcery 100
Herald of tzeentch, chariot, bolt, master of sorcery 100
Herald of tzeentch, chariot, bolt, master of sorcery 100

3 Bloodcrushers, icon 145
4 Fiends 120
5 Fiends 150

5 Plague bearers 75
5 Plague bearers 75
5 Plague bearers 75 
 
12 Seekers 204

Daemon Prince, mark of slaanesh, iron hide 120
Daemon Prince, mark of slaanesh, iron hide 120
Daemon Prince, mark of slaanesh, iron hide 120

3 Demon Princes, (un-)Holy Crap!

heralds have 0 powers on their upgrades so somewhat useless

fiends will be shot to death on the turn they come in there is not enough of them ( unless there is something more dangerous on the field)

too much plague only need at least 2 of the 10 man and scrap instrument

screamers for anti tank if they make it there alive but after there tanks are dead they will die from melee to anything else

princes will die WAY TO FAST they have 0 armor and they are just naked with no upgrades at all to make them special and don't think that they wont die they will very fast


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nothing really cheesy about daemons they all have weaknesses

Agreed with the above.

The Heralds are useless without Bolt/Legion/Sorcery upgrades, so immediately we need to fix that. Similarly the Princes can probably do with an upgrade or 2 simply because some are really price-efficient.

The Plagebearers are too big while the Fiends are too small. Finally, I really don't rate Screamers to do anything worthwhile.

I would upgrade your Heralds to the standard Bolt/Legion/Sorcery/Chariot platform, potentially cutting them down to 3. The Plaguebearers really only need 5 in a squad and truthfully, you can drop a squad to save points. 3 squads of 5 is plenty for 1500pt games, guaranteed.
Any points saved by doing this should be redistributed into the Fiends. Squads of 4 are really the minimum, but 6 is much better. If this requires the removal of the Screamers, so be it. They never accomplish anything anyway.

Finally, I would throw a few token upgrades on the Princes. You don't need 150+pt monsters but you'll definitely get your mileage from Unholy Might. Similarly, the Mark of Slaanesh is so cheap that there really isn't a reason not to take it unless you want Nurgle or Tzeentch instead, so throw a Mark on there to suit your needs. I personally love Tzeentch with Gaze and Bolt, although they are pricey. Consider Ironhide as well.

Agree with above.


Look... if you want to cheese the daemons, take 60+ pink horrors w/ bolt in a 2000 pt game. Thats 180 bolters at least..... or take 3x4 crushers w/ full command with fateweaver and the masque.

Then take the princes as heavy and some MSU of plagues to claim objectives. The ONLY way to cheese daemons is to take 1,000,000 of one things. 18x fiends, 15x crushers, 30+ flamers, 60+ horrors, 80+ Plagues, 3x princes w/ 2x keepers or thirsters.


Thus why I have 17,000 pts in daemons.

Definately need the screamers 80% of copetitive lists bring 4 or more tanks / walkers. Why i'm reluctant to ungrade the princes and heralds, they're so cheap for their stat line un upgraded. 4 Units of plague bearers for a game with potentially 5 objectives.
Also, it cannot be that all my units die really quickly, if they kill the fiends, screamers and a daemon prince in two turns i still have more than enough left.

The reason nobody likes Screamers is because they have *1* job to do, and they still suck at it. A single Meltabomb is not threatening at all. You'll get 3-4 attacks for the whole squad, hitting on a 4+/6+, and then require a 5+ to destroy them (No AP1 for Metlabombs). This is all assuming that you even survive to get into range, and even with ideal conditions, the squad will get obliterated immediately after killing that Chimera.
Screamers are simply awful. If you want to go tank-hunting with melee, do it with Fiends, Seekers or Bloodthirsters.

I appreciate the love for cheap Daemon Princes but the Mark of Slaanesh is 5pts and offers Halberd-protection, Its a significant buff at a rock-bottom price and there is really no reason not to take a Mark.

You don't need 4-5 units of Plaguebearers because you are an assault army. You need to hold 1-2, and then rush the others with waves of assault troops. You win the game by holding *more* objectives, not all of them. Hold 2, and contest the others.

I'm not trying to be rude here but Daemons need all the help they can get. There are definitely good/bad units in the book and you won't help anything by deviating from that. It's an unfortunate truth but sometimes a unit is just terrible, and has no place in a 'cheesy army list'.

Mark of slaanesh = 10 points
Screamers = jetbikes = can quickly get to tabks
Less plague bearers = i can see your point, will change that
Using strength 3 (seekers) to kill tanks, not going to happen



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OP edited, any better?

Definitely improved. By reducing the Plaguebearers slightly you've dramatically improved the resilience of both your Fiends and Princes.
Also, my bad on the Mark of Slaanesh. I stand by it being excellent value though.


Seekers make passable anti-tank because they combine buckets of attacks with Rending. Bearing in mind that the vast majority of vehicles have a rear AV of 10, even a small unit is perfectly capable of stunlocking it. They are hideously vulnerable to any infantry that may dismount, but then so are the Screamers.
As a fun mathematical exercise, lets see just how Screamers perform as anti-tank. Lets pit 10 Screamers (Your initial number in the list) against 9 Seekers (Closest equivalent pointswise).

In an ideal world, those 10 Screamers will be against an immobile target and so land 10 hits. This translates to roughly 3 destroyed results against AV10. Wahey! I'm sure you're thinking.
However, those 9 Seekers get 45 hits which translates into 2.5 glances and 5 Pens. This is roughly half the anti-tank performance. Not bad for the Screamers.
However, what is not being considered is that both values are absolutely awful. Under perfect circumstances, assuming everything survives into contact and against an immobile enemy, you will take out 3 vehicles. Considering the state of the current game, that probably means 3 Rhinos or Chimerae. Conveniently enough, this means you've probably broke even in terms of damage done.

However, a far more likely situation is that the opponent is not an idiot. If those vehicles have moved, immediately your chances plummet down to negligible. If your Meltabombs are actually going to threaten a valuable vehicle, chances are he can afford to kill 3 T3/4++ models to save it. There's also the very relevant point that each unit represents a delicious Killpoint to be harvested.

While that was very long-winded, the basic idea is that using close-combat to deal with tanks is a very bad plan. If everything goes your way, and your opponent isn't making any efforts to protect himself, you'll probably break even. Far more likely, your opponent will direct a single squads-worth of firepower and destroy them.
At least Seekers can do something other than hunt tanks. You can rush an objective or even kill smaller squads. Screamers do not have this luxury. Also, worth noting that while Screamers are faster, Seekers have a longer charge range. I would argue that Fleet and 12" Charge is far more useful than a 12" movement and the capacity to Turbo-boost.


This all comes together to really reinforce my point that if you need anti-tank, its best to do it with Bolt. The preferred build for Heralds is there for a reason and gives us some shot for tackling vehicles without jumping through hoops. In your case the Fiends and Princes are probably up to the job if they have to, but ranged>>>melee for tank busting.

Taken away the screamers, taken away a herald, given the heralds bolt, added more seekers, added master of sorcery to two heralds


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Do you think that 6 seekers could die too easily? Should I combine the two squads?


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And do something simalar with the fiends, e.g. 2 squads of 6 fiends

Yes to both I think. The Fiends might get away with 4x3, but 6 Seekers will be killed too quickly for my liking.
Consider combining the Seekers into a single unit of 10, and running the Fiends 4/4/5?

But by any standards, the list is looking much healthier now. At this point its probably best to leave it in your hands and let you refine as you see fit.

Best of luck to you!

Drop seekers for hounds or GK will hurt you bad. (2+ invulnerable vs psychic weapons) You only need 15 plaguebearers, not 17. Drop some stuff so princes can buy lash. Your list seems to aim for striking fast, so IMO if you just want plain princes you should make them unmarked with wings....Fiends are good, but could struggle because they only rend. I would take a unit of bloodcrushers or bloodletters also.

I'm not sure where this love for Flesh Hounds is coming from. The only reason anybody ever recommends them is because of the 2++ against Nemesis gear. But beyond that, they are still dreadful. Tying up an enemy is not the same as beating it in combat.
Also protip, Flesh Hounds will still *lose* a fight to even a basic Strike squad. While they benefit from the 2++, the Strikes gain Preferred Enemy and Hammerhand, meaning they will inflict the same amount of damage. However the Psycannon-carriers and Justicar tip the balance in the Strikes favour.

But what about my Furious Charge, I hear you say. If you want to benefit from that I think its only fair to factor in a shooting phase and cover for the Grey Knights, because that's what you're facing.

If they survive the shooting phase (T4/5++ ftw) then they will still lose that assault, even with their fancy Blessing. Tying up an enemy is not the great boon that people seem to think it is.

@ mozzamanx

I still say they will do better than seekers. Furious charge with cavalry means you will almost alwYs get a charge off. 200 points of hounds I still more survivable than seekers. They die so fast you should be fieldin at least 15 seekers for a good charge. They are one of the only units that doesn't get +1 toughness for being mounted :-(.

i guess ymmv in terms of seekers and hounds. i have found hounds to be the buisness tho, they have popped tanks, taken down dozenz of jetbikes and bikes (they love that) you just have to pitch it right.

my seekers are about on par...but they just get shot alot, i think people have been hurt by seekers in the past so they almost turn into a spot kill. but if they ever survived...oh that would be so cool with all those rending attacks...i simply have to rolla 6 sooner or later

i think daemon fast attack is the bomb tho, so i'm biased lol

Defeatmyarmy wrote:@ mozzamanx

I still say they will do better than seekers. Furious charge with cavalry means you will almost alwYs get a charge off. 200 points of hounds I still more survivable than seekers. They die so fast you should be fieldin at least 15 seekers for a good charge. They are one of the only units that doesn't get +1 toughness for being mounted :-(.

Seekers have tons more attacks, I believe they have nades, and rending. They do far more damage than hounds. I use hounds due to them being cheap and disruptive, but that's it. Their damage output is pretty meh.

@op: cut stuff to make room for upgrades on the princes. CC princes need at least hide and wings. Also, daemons do not do MSU very well without fateweaver, reason being all our stuff dies to bolters half the time, and most everythings a threat to them. Consolidate the seekers into a large block, i'd also try and find room for a squad of crushers with a banner. Crushers are highly survivable and make good icon bearers.


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Rogues Gambit wrote:i guess ymmv in terms of seekers and hounds. i have found hounds to be the buisness tho, they have popped tanks, taken down dozenz of jetbikes and bikes (they love that) you just have to pitch it right.

my seekers are about on par...but they just get shot alot, i think people have been hurt by seekers in the past so they almost turn into a spot kill. but if they ever survived...oh that would be so cool with all those rending attacks...i simply have to rolla 6 sooner or later

i think daemon fast attack is the bomb tho, so i'm biased lol

There's a reason they're spot targets, and also why you almost always want them in blobs of 15 or so. They are highly threatening to everything minus AV 13 and 14. They turn most anything they change to mincemeat, and they WILL kill when they charge. Hounds aren't killy comparatively, are a little more durable, and a good distraction. Both units have two completely different roles.