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Well, I find ti interesting.

Source article.

So, the Supremes shot down yet another lawsuit over Obama's birth certificate. They used the same grounds as before - that the plaintiff had no standing.

Here's where I sort of disagree with the decision. The plaintiff was Alan Keyes & co. Alan Keyes ran for president in 2008, as is his wont. As such, I feel like he does have standing. His damages are clear - he contends Obama is not eligible to be President, which clearly harmed his own attempt to be president.

So, I don't want to rehash the merits of the actual birther debacle, if possible (it probably isn't). However, I'm interested in legal things, so I'm curious on this narrow aspect of the debate - Should Alan Keyes have standing? If not, who possibly could?

Alan Keyes, besides being a complete loon, is also a Republican. As such, Alan Keyes chance to run for president was shot down when he didn't get the Repubilcan nomination, which happened entirely in isolation to Obama's win in the Democratic Primary (Obama did actually beat Keyes in a direct election, when Keyes was the only masochist willing to run against Obama for the federal senate in Illinois, but Obama wouldn't be precluded from running for that if he wasn't a natural citizen).

To my reckoning, the person with actual standing would be the guy Obama beat for the Presidency - John McCain. Unfortunately for the birthers and for Alan Keyes, John McCain is not crazy like Alan Keyes is crazy.

sebster wrote:Alan Keyes, besides being a complete loon, is also a Republican. As such, Alan Keyes chance to run for president was shot down when he didn't get the Repubilcan nomination, which happened entirely in isolation to Obama's win in the Democratic Primary (Obama did actually beat Keyes in a direct election, when Keyes was the only masochist willing to run against Obama for the federal senate in Illinois, but Obama wouldn't be precluded from running for that if he wasn't a natural citizen).

To my reckoning, the person with actual standing would be the guy Obama beat for the Presidency - John McCain. Unfortunately for the birthers and for Alan Keyes, John McCain is not crazy like Alan Keyes is crazy.

Pretty much this. Without the Republican candidacy, Alan Keyes had no standing at all. He lost nothing because he never ran against Obama for the presidency.

Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks.

sebster wrote:Obama wouldn't be precluded from running for that if he wasn't a natural citizen.

If Obama wasn't born a US citizen (meaning that he wasn't actually born in Hawai'i, and the woman everyone says is his mother isn't really his mother), he wouldn't be a US citizen now, as he was never naturalized. As such, he wouldn't be able to be a senator either.

Grakmar wrote:

sebster wrote:Obama wouldn't be precluded from running for that if he wasn't a natural citizen.

If Obama wasn't born a US citizen (meaning that he wasn't actually born in Hawai'i, and the woman everyone says is his mother isn't really his mother), he wouldn't be a US citizen now, as he was never naturalized. As such, he wouldn't be able to be a senator either.

Is someone claiming that his mother isn't his natural mother?

deathholydeath wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

sebster wrote:Obama wouldn't be precluded from running for that if he wasn't a natural citizen.

If Obama wasn't born a US citizen (meaning that he wasn't actually born in Hawai'i, and the woman everyone says is his mother isn't really his mother), he wouldn't be a US citizen now, as he was never naturalized. As such, he wouldn't be able to be a senator either.

Is someone claiming that his mother isn't his natural mother?

That is the implied statement, but it's even crazier than the "he's secretly from Kenya" thing, so the birthers don't really highlight it.

No Diana Ross?

OK so, Obama's birth is not natural.
The Sith use powers that would be considered unnatural.
Therefore Obama is a Sith Lord! I knew it!

Grakmar wrote:

deathholydeath wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

sebster wrote:Obama wouldn't be precluded from running for that if he wasn't a natural citizen.

If Obama wasn't born a US citizen (meaning that he wasn't actually born in Hawai'i, and the woman everyone says is his mother isn't really his mother), he wouldn't be a US citizen now, as he was never naturalized. As such, he wouldn't be able to be a senator either.

Is someone claiming that his mother isn't his natural mother?

That is the implied statement, but it's even crazier than the "he's secretly from Kenya" thing, so the birthers don't really highlight it.

Is it safe to assume that at least a large number of birther's are racially motivated ?

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

deathholydeath wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

sebster wrote:Obama wouldn't be precluded from running for that if he wasn't a natural citizen.

If Obama wasn't born a US citizen (meaning that he wasn't actually born in Hawai'i, and the woman everyone says is his mother isn't really his mother), he wouldn't be a US citizen now, as he was never naturalized. As such, he wouldn't be able to be a senator either.

Is someone claiming that his mother isn't his natural mother?

That is the implied statement, but it's even crazier than the "he's secretly from Kenya" thing, so the birthers don't really highlight it.

Is it safe to assume that at least a large number of birther's are racially motivated ?

That's a fun question. and the news stations I watch would say 'Yes' But it is a valid question to ask if the candidate was born in the US. McCain wasn't but he was eligible, due to the circumstances of his birth.

After the question has been asked and the documents are produced showing Obama was born in hawaii, then you have to wonder about the reasons its still being brought up. It could just be the conspiracy theorists, they always love a good conspiracy, I won't say what I think motivates them, but I wouldn't start with race. Could some of the people claiming it be racially motivated? Sure. Because if they can legally prove Obama was not born in the US, then the US would still have never had its first black president. So the question of how many birther's are racially motivated is really hard to determine, because even if someone was, they probably wouldn't admit it.

I think we're glossing over this Sith thing...

sirlynchmob wrote:

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

deathholydeath wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

sebster wrote:Obama wouldn't be precluded from running for that if he wasn't a natural citizen.

If Obama wasn't born a US citizen (meaning that he wasn't actually born in Hawai'i, and the woman everyone says is his mother isn't really his mother), he wouldn't be a US citizen now, as he was never naturalized. As such, he wouldn't be able to be a senator either.

Is someone claiming that his mother isn't his natural mother?

That is the implied statement, but it's even crazier than the "he's secretly from Kenya" thing, so the birthers don't really highlight it.

Is it safe to assume that at least a large number of birther's are racially motivated ?

That's a fun question. and the news stations I watch would say 'Yes' But it is a valid question to ask if the candidate was born in the US. McCain wasn't but he was eligible, due to the circumstances of his birth.

After the question has been asked and the documents are produced showing Obama was born in hawaii, then you have to wonder about the reasons its still being brought up. It could just be the conspiracy theorists, they always love a good conspiracy, I won't say what I think motivates them, but I wouldn't start with race. Could some of the people claiming it be racially motivated? Sure. Because if they can legally prove Obama was not born in the US, then the US would still have never had its first black president. So the question of how many birther's are racially motivated is really hard to determine, because even if someone was, they probably wouldn't admit it.

Another question, can you get into a high position as a civil servant if you don't meet the specifications for running for President? Would a kenyan-born Obama from an unknown african mother have been legally able to get, let's say, a position as a Vice, or a Secretary, or anything still close to the Oval Office?

I'm asking because I don't understand how someone could know they could very easily be disqualified from a race that costs millions of dollars to run, and still run (or how he could accumulate the back-up necessary). And it's even more bat-gak crazy in the event he could've run for another influencial position close to the Presidency...

Frazzled wrote:I think we're glossing over this Sith thing...

Because you're wrong.

Sith are born totally naturally. It's the conception that's unnatural.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

deathholydeath wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

sebster wrote:Obama wouldn't be precluded from running for that if he wasn't a natural citizen.

If Obama wasn't born a US citizen (meaning that he wasn't actually born in Hawai'i, and the woman everyone says is his mother isn't really his mother), he wouldn't be a US citizen now, as he was never naturalized. As such, he wouldn't be able to be a senator either.

Is someone claiming that his mother isn't his natural mother?

That is the implied statement, but it's even crazier than the "he's secretly from Kenya" thing, so the birthers don't really highlight it.

Is it safe to assume that at least a large number of birther's are racially motivated ?

That's a fun question. and the news stations I watch would say 'Yes' But it is a valid question to ask if the candidate was born in the US. McCain wasn't but he was eligible, due to the circumstances of his birth.

After the question has been asked and the documents are produced showing Obama was born in hawaii, then you have to wonder about the reasons its still being brought up. It could just be the conspiracy theorists, they always love a good conspiracy, I won't say what I think motivates them, but I wouldn't start with race. Could some of the people claiming it be racially motivated? Sure. Because if they can legally prove Obama was not born in the US, then the US would still have never had its first black president. So the question of how many birther's are racially motivated is really hard to determine, because even if someone was, they probably wouldn't admit it.

Another question, can you get into a high position as a civil servant if you don't meet the specifications for running for President? Would a kenyan-born Obama from an unknown african mother have been legally able to get, let's say, a position as a Vice, or a Secretary, or anything still close to the Oval Office?

I'm asking because I don't understand how someone could know they could very easily be disqualified from a race that costs millions of dollars to run, and still run (or how he could accumulate the back-up necessary). And it's even more bat-gak crazy in the event he could've run for another influencial position close to the Presidency...

You can be a senator as long as you've lived in the US for at least 9 years, and if you can get to speaker of the house you'd be third in line for the presidency. You can't run for vice president either unless you were born a US citizen.

I'm not sure how they select the speaker of the house, or if they check citizenship, but looks like 3rd in line is the best you can do.

I can't think of any high office that does not require a person to be a citizen, but most don't require a natural born citizen. A naturalized Kenyan-born Obama from an unknown mother would be able to be a secretary in the cabinet as well as be in Congress. I imagine VPOTUS has the same requirements as the POTUS, but I can't say with certainty off hand.

I don't know what would happen if a naturalized citizen were Speaker of the House and POTUS and VPOTUS were both killed/incapacitated. I imainge it would move to the next in the line, the Senate Pro Temp, and so on, until the person that met all the legal requirements.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

deathholydeath wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

sebster wrote:Obama wouldn't be precluded from running for that if he wasn't a natural citizen.

If Obama wasn't born a US citizen (meaning that he wasn't actually born in Hawai'i, and the woman everyone says is his mother isn't really his mother), he wouldn't be a US citizen now, as he was never naturalized. As such, he wouldn't be able to be a senator either.

Is someone claiming that his mother isn't his natural mother?

That is the implied statement, but it's even crazier than the "he's secretly from Kenya" thing, so the birthers don't really highlight it.

Is it safe to assume that at least a large number of birther's are racially motivated ?

That's a fun question. and the news stations I watch would say 'Yes' But it is a valid question to ask if the candidate was born in the US. McCain wasn't but he was eligible, due to the circumstances of his birth.

After the question has been asked and the documents are produced showing Obama was born in hawaii, then you have to wonder about the reasons its still being brought up. It could just be the conspiracy theorists, they always love a good conspiracy, I won't say what I think motivates them, but I wouldn't start with race. Could some of the people claiming it be racially motivated? Sure. Because if they can legally prove Obama was not born in the US, then the US would still have never had its first black president. So the question of how many birther's are racially motivated is really hard to determine, because even if someone was, they probably wouldn't admit it.

Looking at previous elections, how many white presidents or candidate have had their legitimacy challenged on the grounds of birth?

McCain, Romney,

It seems to be a modern trend.

It hasn't been an issue until recently. Part of the problem is that Obama used "Kenyan roots" recently as well in bios for books and the Harvard Law Review. That sounds minor, but then again, before being President he didn't actually do much.

The 12th Amendment established that the Vice President has the same requirements as the President.

Frazzled wrote:It hasn't been an issue until recently. Part of the problem is that Obama used "Kenyan roots" recently as well in bios for books and the Harvard Law Review.

Actually no, it goes back to Arthur.

Frazzled wrote:
That sounds minor, but then again, before being President he didn't actually do much.

Funny, I thought he was a law professor, community organizer, father, and terrible communist terrorist seeking to undermine the good, Christian foundations of totally not socialist America*.

*Amurica

If you read the fine print, it also mandates that every second VP must be a blithering idiot.
Mondale, Bush, Quayle, Gore, Cheney, Biden
Primary: Bush I, Cheney

Alternate:Mondale, Quayle, Gore, Biden

See!

Bush I, Cheney and Gore were all very smart, or at least good at policy; though not politics.

Actually no, it goes back to Arthur.

I think you’re making a joke. Just not catching it. The image of a bumbling Dudley Moore is getting in my way. Chester A Arthur?

Funny, I thought he was a law professor, community organizer, father, and terrible communist terrorist seeking to undermine the good, Christian foundations of totally not socialist America*.

Exactly. (oh its adjunct law professor actually). He didn’t do much before his present occupation*
*terrorist communist terrorist seeking to undermine the good, Christian foundations of totally not socialist America.

His law review and book bio denote his Kenyan origin however.

Frazzled wrote:
I think you’re making a joke. Just not catching it. The image of a bumbling Dudley Moore is getting in my way. Chester A Arthur?

No joke, big controversy about whether or not he was born in Canada. The "natural born" clause has always caused headaches because, well, a 5 year old could have done a better job writing it*.

Frazzled wrote:He didn’t do much before his present occupation

Reagan was an actor.



*Fun question: can a test tube baby be President?

Thats not a very good shot Dogma. He was also head of the actor's guild, and Governor of the tiny state of California.

As to Chester Arthur. You could be right. I mean everyone knows about the legend that is Chester A Arthur, but sometimes we forget the lesser facts of the greatest of Great Men.

Frazzled wrote:Thats not a very good shot Dogma. He was also head of the actor's guild, and Governor of the tiny state of California.

First, George Clinton was TJ's Veep, this makes him the most funkadelic of Presidents.

Second, being a governor doesn't seem to impact one's ability to govern: Carter (underrated), Bush II.

dogma wrote:*Fun question: can a test tube baby be President?

Better question: can a c-section baby be President?

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Thats not a very good shot Dogma. He was also head of the actor's guild, and Governor of the tiny state of California.

First, George Clinton was TJ's Veep, this makes him the most funkadelic of Presidents.

...er...what?

Second, being a governor doesn't seem to impact one's ability to govern: Carter (underrated), Bush II.

Don't distract. He had experience in running a multibillion dolar enterprise and the most powerful state in the Union (at that time). That beats Sharpton lite community organizing hands down.

Of course we had 6% GDP growth then...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dogma wrote:Bush I, Cheney and Gore were all very smart, or at least good at policy; though not politics.

Thats my point (except Gore, he's an idiot). The VPS that followed them were...flawed.