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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/06/13 21:04:20
Subject: US Supreme Court could make used games a thing of the past soon
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Article
Used games are a point of contention between gamers who want to save a little money and game developers who worry about losing new sales to used games. But it may all be moot, if an obscure case that's about to go before the Supreme Court goes copyright holders' way. Here's what's going on, and why you should care.
All games you sell used, you're doing so under a provision of the law called the "first-sale doctrine". Essentially, under the law, yes, the contents of your game are under copyright to the publisher and developer. But the actual copy, the item itself you bought, is your property to do with as you wish. Sell it to someone else, use it as a coaster, whatever, it's yours, you own it free and clear. They can't collect on it, they can only, you guessed it, earn money on the first sale.
But there's a point of contention in the law: so far, in a fairly obscure case that centers around cheaper textbooks being imported, the courts have ruled that the first-sale doctrine does not apply to any copyrighted products manufactured outside the US.
How is this a problem for you, the gamer? Well, if this interpretation of the law holds, in order for you to sell these products, you'd have to get the permission of the copyright holders.
All of them.
Let's say you wanted to sell a copy of Assassin's Creed II. You'd have to get permission from Ubisoft, of course, but also Havok, since the game uses its copyrighted physics engine, and also the manufacturer of the console your copy is for, since it contains copyrighted proprietary information that allows the game to work with a specific device. If the game also had, say, Autodesk's Scaleform, Unreal Engine, Bink Video, or any of a host of other engines, libraries, plug-ins, and other chunks of programming that are extremely common in building video games, you'd have to get their permission as well.
The same would be true of consoles and controllers, which are almost always manufactured overseas.
Sure, if your game was made in the US, you could sell it, no problem. But all any game company would have to do to block used sales would be to get the game made in Canada or Mexico, and revoke all requests to legally resell it.
We want to emphasize that it's by no means certain that the Supreme Court will agree with the lower courts on this issue, or that video game companies would act this way. But if the Supreme Court does decide the lower courts are correct, it opens the door to precisely the scenario we're laying out here.
Want to do something about this? Write your Congressman; you can find out who that is right here. Remember to be polite; angry cursing will just be ignored. And spread the word: this affects everybody, gamer and non-gamer alike.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/06/13 20:44:29
Subject: Re:US Supreme Court could make used games a thing of the past soon
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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Yep, that proves it;
The senate belongs to the corporations  .
I'm calling it, we are all going to end up living in a cyberpunk-esque world where people are copyrighted by government/corporate hybrids.
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What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/06/13 21:03:57
Subject: US Supreme Court could make used games a thing of the past soon
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Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God
Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways
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Would the ruling automatically apply to all media, or would computer companies etc have to run tesst cases to get the law confirmed for their products?
Also, does this apply to all items with copyright in the US made overseas? Because that would just bone all 2nd hand trade of pretty much everything
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/06/13 21:40:01
Subject: US Supreme Court could make used games a thing of the past soon
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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the courts have ruled that the first-sale doctrine does not apply to any copyrighted products manufactured outside the US.
I wonder if the type of people objection would change if we changed it so the ruling only applies to companies who produce their products in the US (Ie, protects US company copyrights from resale but not foreign copyrights), while letting foreign made products go?
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/06/13 21:53:31
Subject: US Supreme Court could make used games a thing of the past soon
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Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
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So I guess that means you're no longer allowed to sell used cars as well. Or used TV sets. Or ...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/06/13 22:24:32
Subject: US Supreme Court could make used games a thing of the past soon
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Lynata wrote:So I guess that means you're no longer allowed to sell used cars as well. Or used TV sets. Or ...
You are using the wrong tense. Nothing has happened yet, so we are still allowed to do all sorts of things. I imagine for other used items it would depend on who owns the copyright, if it is something subject to copyright in the first place, the number of copyrights involved, and the origin of the thing. I don't think one can copyright a car, though you can patent elements of it, and you also don't agree to a EULA to own it. The software coding in a game isn't 100% analogous to a car.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/06/13 22:37:40
Subject: US Supreme Court could make used games a thing of the past soon
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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On the bright side, if this comes to pass, publishers can't blame used games for their piss poor sales anymore...
They'll just keep blaming pirates I guess.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/06/13 22:50:02
Subject: US Supreme Court could make used games a thing of the past soon
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Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
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Ahtman wrote:You are using the wrong tense. Nothing has happened yet, so we are still allowed to do all sorts of things. I imagine for other used items it would depend on who owns the copyright, if it is something subject to copyright in the first place, the number of copyrights involved, and the origin of the thing. I don't think one can copyright a car, though you can patent elements of it, and you also don't agree to a EULA to own it. The software coding in a game isn't 100% analogous to a car.
Ah, thought that a court ruling like this would go in effect immediately until appealed, with people now campaigning for the latter. Either way, best of luck getting rid of this BS.
As for cars, etc - anything is copyrighted these days. Most obviously, this goes for the company and the model name as represented by the badges on the chassis, though you could easily remove those from the vehicle. A lot of internals also have a company name printed on somewhere, though, ranging from the wheel to your seats to the tires and the engine, it could go as far as the screws.
Also, there is the question of whether or not the shape of the car is regarded as intellectual property or not.
http://consumerist.com/2008/01/ford-photos-of-your-car-are-copyright-infringement.html
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/06/13 22:54:52
Subject: US Supreme Court could make used games a thing of the past soon
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Smokin' Skorcha Driver
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This would even damage us wargamers. How many of GW's products are made in the US? they could block anybody from selling their army or bitz.
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"Friglatt Tinks e's da 'unce and futor git, but i knows better. i put dat part in when i fixed im up after dat first scrap wid does scrawn pointy ears and does pinkies." Dok chopanblok to Big Mek Dattrukk.
Victories against: 2 2 1 1 1 2 3 1 2
Died havin fun wid: 3 2 1 4 2 2 2 5 1
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/06/14 02:13:28
Subject: Re:US Supreme Court could make used games a thing of the past soon
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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They can try - I live in the Philippines, land of pirates.
If that doesn't work, hey, I go to Japan - land of video games, cosplay, and other entertainments - every summer.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 12:03:12
Subject: US Supreme Court could make used games a thing of the past soon
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Using Inks and Washes
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I don't believe that it will effect things like cars, or people's SM collection. After all, as has already been stated, you don't sign an EULA before you can use those items.
The difference here is that already, for a number of years, people have been readily signing EULAs that state they don't actually own the game they just paid money for. All you have bought title to is the media that it is on, and the developers etc. retain title to the software itself. It is this that is causing problems and allowing companies to demand you have internet access so they can validate software.
(I have little to no internet acces, and was extremely annoyed when I found out that the copy of Assassin's Creed II I bought required permanent internet access to play the game solo!)
Either way, it may be that the list of copanies that are required to be contacted is not as large as previously stated. I assume that there are a number of software companies that are US based? And these are still going to be covered by "First-sale doctrine"? So you will only need to contact non-US companies at all I.E. your game was developed by a US developer, distributed in the US by a US company, then you may not have to contact anyone at all.
And it may be that this hurts the game companies more than it helps them, as more people will hold back on buying a game in case they can't re-sell it if they either find it too hard/easy or just don't like it. They'll stick to established franchises that they like and know and will be even less likely to take a punt on something they are not sure about when they know they practically 'can't' re-sell it later.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/04 12:04:45
"Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics, and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tzu, and Einstein, and Morobuto, and Buddy Holly, and Aristophanes…then all of this…all of this…was for nothing. Unless we go to the stars." Commander sinclair, Babylon 5.
Bobtheinquisitor wrote:what is going on with APAC shipping? If Macross Island were real, they'd be the last place to get any Robotechnology. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 14:59:06
Subject: Re:US Supreme Court could make used games a thing of the past soon
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Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
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Meanwhile in Europe: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57465746-92/eu-court-sale-of-used-software-licenses-is-just-fine/
Apparently, you can even sell used software licenses and keys over here now, removing the artificial barrier that was created with digital downloads as opposed to hard copies (an obvious attempt by the publishers to prevent resale of used products). It appears the US is close to removing this barrier as well, just the other way around, by making hard copies as "bound" as licenses are.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 16:49:55
Subject: US Supreme Court could make used games a thing of the past soon
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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It's a preliminary ruling. It will take months, if not years to get it formalized and it's end form might look very different to what was presented here.
Not to mention it's just lifetime licenses that could be affected by this. There's a bunch of loopholes companies can use to go around that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 17:06:08
Subject: US Supreme Court could make used games a thing of the past soon
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Conrad Turner wrote:I don't believe that it will effect things like cars, or people's SM collection. After all, as has already been stated, you don't sign an EULA before you can use those items. You don't sign an EULA for a textbook either. May want to read that case(John Wiley & Sons Inc. v. Kirtsaeng) concerning first-sale doctrine that may determine their ruling on this one.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/04 17:12:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 17:13:16
Subject: US Supreme Court could make used games a thing of the past soon
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Lady of the Lake
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SilverMK2 wrote:Would the ruling automatically apply to all media, or would computer companies etc have to run tesst cases to get the law confirmed for their products?
I'd assume it would apply to all media.
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