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I recently inherited a pack of very old metal epic minis, and some (painted) had this powder on them, it looked like snow; very much actually, like the corrosion that builds up on the battery terminal of a car. I didn't see it on any of the unpainted minis, and only 2-3 of the painted ones.

Anyone know what's going on here? Is this stuff toxic? What causes this?

Yeah, lead will go brittle and powdery over time. It's known as 'lead rot' in miniatures circles.

Lead has been a popular metal for fabricating fittings for exhibition ship models. It has been attractive because it is easy to obtain, soft and easy to fashion, and it melts at a relatively low temperature. However, lead fittings frequently corrode. (1) Corrosion may be so severe as to completely consume the piece, leaving behind a white or gray residue popularly, and aptly, called "lead disease", "lead rot", "lead cancer", or "lead bloom".

Hope that answers your question.

Basically some lead alloys that were used to make miniatures can 'rot' but it only really applies to very old kits and it depends on how/where they are stored. I have a lot of early 80s GW miniatures and I have never had any problems witht hem.
See here http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=152257

Generally paint will form a protective barrier against this so I am not sure why only a couple of the painted models had it... Could be dust if the models were kept in the open before being put in the box?

I also have lead minis from the 80s and 90s, unpainted at that and they've never caused any problems. These are old Grenadier, Ral Partha etc stuff.

SilverMK2 wrote:Generally paint will form a protective barrier against this so I am not sure why only a couple of the painted models had it... Could be dust if the models were kept in the open before being put in the box?

If the figures have been exposed to a lot of direct light, the acrylic polymers in regular miniatures paint can have started decaying and forming microcracelures, leading to moisture getting access to the metal layer and possibly creating a wet microclimate between the paint and the metal (this can also occur if there are small gaps in the paintjob). Corrosion can then have occured (especially if the miniatures had been exposed to alkaline moisture) and the lead oxide can have migrated to the outside of the paint layer. As I understand it. The other possibility is the (highly unlikely) use of metal-containing older paints and galvanic corrosion on the sacrificial anode, the lead. In truth, neither option is especially likely if the unpainted models have been stored together with the painted ones and thus exposed to the same air. It could be something else entirely. If this was a conservation lab issue, we'd analyze the white powder to see if it was, in fact, lead oxide.

I'm not a paintings conservator, though, and thus don't see issues like this very often. There could be common case stories of this - I am just not familiar with them.

I would seriously doubt that the Epic minis were ever made of lead. Wasn't it around the late 80s tjat the mysrerious "white metal" was developed and used as a lead substitute for miniatures?

White metal came out in the mid-late 90's (I think it was 98).

Not in the US. I was in middle school in 90/91 and remember the markings on the packages reading "lead-free".

White metal was brought in due to some US regulation stipulating the amount of lead in toys, at least thats how the story goes. According to wikipedia white metal was introduced in 1997 and I remember its introduction as being around that time.

Got a picture ?

They aren't anything to do with Chaos are they?

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:Generally paint will form a protective barrier against this so I am not sure why only a couple of the painted models had it... Could be dust if the models were kept in the open before being put in the box?

If the figures have been exposed to a lot of direct light, the acrylic polymers in regular miniatures paint can have started decaying and forming microcracelures, leading to moisture getting access to the metal layer and possibly creating a wet microclimate between the paint and the metal (this can also occur if there are small gaps in the paintjob). Corrosion can then have occured (especially if the miniatures had been exposed to alkaline moisture) and the lead oxide can have migrated to the outside of the paint layer. As I understand it. The other possibility is the (highly unlikely) use of metal-containing older paints and galvanic corrosion on the sacrificial anode, the lead. In truth, neither option is especially likely if the unpainted models have been stored together with the painted ones and thus exposed to the same air. It could be something else entirely. If this was a conservation lab issue, we'd analyze the white powder to see if it was, in fact, lead oxide.

I'm not a paintings conservator, though, and thus don't see issues like this very often. There could be common case stories of this - I am just not familiar with them.

That's pretty interesting - I'd not considered the paint itself decomposing and increasing/causing corrosion of the lead. Though I still think that dust is by far the most likely answer.

Very old GW miniatures will oxidise if not undercoated, but those are the very old ones. The more recent white metal as far as I know doesn't, but then again I don't have any models old enough to prove the theory.

The most likely answer I can give you is that GW used to use Talcum Powder on their vulcanised rubber moulds as a mould release, and quite often the minis came out with a fine coating of talc.

The white powdery substance is most probably talcum powder, but when old minis oxidise they also have a white coating, but the metal itself goes very dark and isn't shiny any more. So if the models are still silver in colour but have white residue it's most likely mould release.

The op said it was only a couple of the painted models that had it, so it is unlikely to be mould release.

Epic miniatures produced in Britain may have contained lead right up until around 2000 - although it must be said that it's unlikely anything produced in the 90s was the kind of poor quality alloy that'll end up with lead rot. Maybe you've got your hands on cheap home-made recasts.

FWIW, if the white powder is in fact due to lead rot, it's extremely toxic and easily absorbed into the body. The stuff looks like little balls of cotton that "bloom" on the body of the model. Wash your hands thoroughly after handling.

Yes, Lead Oxides can be bad for your health. Don't rub your fingers in it and don't eat it with your breakfast cereal.

SilverMK2 wrote:
That's pretty interesting - I'd not considered the paint itself decomposing and increasing/causing corrosion of the lead. Though I still think that dust is by far the most likely answer.

Things like that is what they pay me to think about

No, scratch that. They pay me to be the project manager of people who think about that AND think about that. It's like herding cats, I tell you.

I've seen models oxidise but certainly not Lead bloom.

Apologies in advance if this sounds silly but to rule out the obvious: it's not super glue that's been too liberally applied post painting? Certainly the old models I did when I was a kid had this issue.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Not in the US. I was in middle school in 90/91 and remember the markings on the packages reading "lead-free".

The GW change to white metal was driven by US legislation against lead in toys in the late '90s. If you were seeing lead-free minis before that, they weren't GW.

insaniak wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Not in the US. I was in middle school in 90/91 and remember the markings on the packages reading "lead-free".

The GW change to white metal was driven by US legislation against lead in toys in the late '90s. If you were seeing lead-free minis before that, they weren't GW.

In North America, GW changed to lead-free pewter in around 1991 to 1992. Certainly, the change was complete by 1993, as I moved to Canada in that year from the UK and I remember the different packaging distinctly (fewer models per blister too). The UK didn't follow suit until much later, and while I don't know exactly when they changed over, I know for a fact that leaded models were still available in the summer of 2000 because in that year I made a massive order of Squats and they were all leaded. It was the year of the 25th anniversary Emperor's Champion.

Palindrome wrote:Basically some lead alloys that were used to make miniatures can 'rot' but it only really applies to very old kits and it depends on how/where they are stored. I have a lot of early 80s GW miniatures and I have never had any problems witht hem.
See here http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=152257

While it is indeed more usual on older models, I have a battlefront Churchill tank where the sides were exibiting quite bad deterioration and that kit can't have been more than 3-4 years old (I think it was from NZ and not the newer Malaysian stuff).

I scrapped and filed it down, filled and GS'd the problem areas (you guys think finecast is a problem! ) and primed and painted it. Time will tell if that solves the problem.

Battlefront uses white metal and I didn't think that Battlefront has ever made a metal tank model.

The flanks of nearly all their tanks are metal (and invariably poorly cast in my experience!) with a resin hull and turret with metal accessories.

Ralidium rules!

angryboy2k wrote:

insaniak wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Not in the US. I was in middle school in 90/91 and remember the markings on the packages reading "lead-free".

The GW change to white metal was driven by US legislation against lead in toys in the late '90s. If you were seeing lead-free minis before that, they weren't GW.

In North America, GW changed to lead-free pewter in around 1991 to 1992. Certainly, the change was complete by 1993, as I moved to Canada in that year from the UK and I remember the different packaging distinctly (fewer models per blister too). The UK didn't follow suit until much later, and while I don't know exactly when they changed over, I know for a fact that leaded models were still available in the summer of 2000 because in that year I made a massive order of Squats and they were all leaded. It was the year of the 25th anniversary Emperor's Champion.

This fits my memories as well. I remember being in high school in the late 1980's and hearing the discussions of how lead miniatures would oxidize and develop a thin coating of a white powder, lead oxide (this used to be the basis for white paint). The lead oxide could come off on the skin during handling, and it was shown that small amounts of this compound could penetrate the skin and into the body. This was deemed to be a health hazard, and lead couldn't be used in miniatures anymore. I kind of remember GW miniatures being made in pewter, too, and I remember the prices went up rather dramatically at that time.

Interestingly enough, I also remember a change in import classifications back in the late 1980s. If I remember correctly, the classification for metal miniatures went from "gaming supplies" to "dolls." "Dolls" had a higher tariff duty. I seem to remember the price of a typical miniature more than doubling after that went into effect.

Really interesting discussion, thanks everyone for your input. This "rot" (definitely not talcum powder or glue of some sort) was only on two of thousands (about 2,500) models I am "babysitting" from a friend who threatened to sell them for pennies at a garage sale (can you imagine??)

These two models were Epic scale Eldar tanks, painted yellow. It was hard to tell if the rot was from spots without paint, as the rot could easily have bubbled up through the paint - after scrubbing it off (with a dirty brush! And promptly washing my hands!) there were obvious paintless spots. Bummer, but I didn't think to snap a photo.

I'm fairly certain these pieces were from the US, and bought and painted sometime in the 90s. They've been hanging out in this guy's garage for ages.

Was the change from lead to pewter, and then to a white metal hybrid of some sort that continued to change slightly in formula, until just recently being replaced by finecast? I remember how soft the lead was, and then learning how to work with the pewter and then they changed to the white metal formula and the way the blade bit into it was very different.

There seems to be a misapprehension here on what "white metal" is.

It is not a single metal or alloy. It is a "family" of alloys that share similar properties and metal components.
Usually Tin is a major component because whilst lead is soft enough to cast with, it just isn't HARD enough to hold details (you can smear details with a fingertip and moderate pressure). The tin is for the hardness of casting, the lead for detail and the third metal is added as a "flow control".

Pewter is ONE of the "white metal" blends - generally just a mix of tin and lead. Although when it comes down to it, there is NO standardised proportions of these metals in the alloy for it to qualify as "pewter". It ranges from 80% lead/20% tin to the opposite. "lead-free" pewter is NOT technically a "pewter" as although there are no fixed proportions required, it still needs to have BOTH of them in it.

GW (and Ral Partha) went "lead free" (they were a tin/lead/antimony blend before this and pure lead long before) in response to a PROPOSED bill that would ban lead in toy figures in NY state - (USA) - a bill that never eventuated, but after all of the changeovers had been made, it would have proven too costly for GW or any other company that made the changes to switch back.
They switched to ANOTHER white metal alloy with a higher proportion of tin and bismuth replacing the lead. It was harder and more brittle but retained detail and cast much like its predecessor.
Between the early 90s and 2000s, they experimented with this alloy and varied the percentages in order to get a 'softer' casting that was still hard enough to hold detail (the first batches of New White Metal (NWM) from GW had a reputation for breaking clippers - proper wire-cutting clippers, not GW's "sprue cutters".).

Lead 'rot' is a real phenomenon, but in most of the "white metal" casts which aren't 'pure' lead, should be a rare occurrence unless they were stored badly, which would just accelerate the natural processes.

Very interesting thread, I did not know about 'lead rot' - off to study!

Thanks for starting it OP