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This probably has a really simple answer, but I just cant seem to get my head around a conclusion. So intervening models confer a cover save, but can TLOS disregard this?
Example1: You have a squad of marines on the third floor of a building shooting down upon an ork mob, but there are marines "intervening", but they dont interrupt the LOS. Would the height advantage negate a cover save for the mob?
Example2: So a necron ghost ark sits fairly higher on its base than normal warriors, the ark opens fire on marines on both sides of it and also had some warriors disembark on either side. Would shooting "through" the warriors confer the cover save or would the arks height go around it?

If you're shooting over, you're not shooting through.

Ah, of course. Thanks!

Intervening models, by the definition of intervening, must be blocking your TLOS.

If they arn't blocking it, then they arn't intervening models.


All this rule was meant for was to clarify that models can indeed give cover to other models(following all the rules for cover as normal)

Intervening units, do not follow TLOS; see page 22 of the BRB; exceptions, 3rd bullet point(firing through units or area terrain).

This is more to correct Grey templar than to address the OP; Rigeld was correct on that: TLOS determines that you are firing "over", not "through"; therefore no cover. If your TLOS from your firing unit would draw an imaginary line at head-height or lower to the intervening unit, then a cover save is granted even if none of the models in the intervening unit obscure any portion of the target unit. When determining the TLOS in this case look to a point on the table that is equidistant to the target unit and would be drawn through/over a model in the intervening unit(you will have to check more than 1 model, likely as many models as possible); you need 2 models that are in the points for you to be firing through the unit.

Thats what I said.

If TLOS shows there is no blockage then the models cannot be intervening models. So no cover.

Grey Templar wrote:Thats what I said.

If TLOS shows there is no blockage then the models cannot be intervening models. So no cover.

But they can be part of an intervening unit.....and can provide a cover save without actually obscuring the target unit.....assuming that LOS is drawn between two members of the intervening unit (and not over).

Grey Templar wrote:Thats what I said.

If TLOS shows there is no blockage then the models cannot be intervening models. So no cover.

Take a look at the image on page 22 of the Rulebook, it shows that even when you don't have TLOS blockage, units can be considered obscured (and even directly mentions intervening units in the caption)

This is why what you are saying is misleading, if not outright incorrect.

I don't think you under stand what I said.

It is perfectly valid to have:
A Dread, on a hill, firing at a unit 30-some inches away.
Between that dread and the target unit is another unit(friendly or enemy, doesn't matter).
The intervening unit does not in any way block TLOS to any models in the target unit.
The intervening unit does, however, block TLOS to points on either side of the target unit.
The intervening unit grants a Cover save.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I don't think you under stand what I said.

It is perfectly valid to have:
A Dread, on a hill, firing at a unit 30-some inches away.
Between that dread and the target unit is another unit(friendly or enemy, doesn't matter).
The intervening unit does not in any way block TLOS to any models in the target unit.
The intervening unit does, however, block TLOS to points on either side of the target unit.
The intervening unit grants a Cover save.

No.
If the unit between the firing unit and the target unit is not in any way intervening (including unit coherency distance - that "empty space" between models in a unit) there is no cover granted.
It doesn't matter if the unit between the two blocks tlos to something else.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:I don't think you under stand what I said.

It is perfectly valid to have:
A Dread, on a hill, firing at a unit 30-some inches away.
Between that dread and the target unit is another unit(friendly or enemy, doesn't matter).
The intervening unit does not in any way block TLOS to any models in the target unit.
The intervening unit does, however, block TLOS to points on either side of the target unit.
The intervening unit grants a Cover save.

No.
If the unit between the firing unit and the target unit is not in any way intervening (including unit coherency distance - that "empty space" between models in a unit) there is no cover granted.
It doesn't matter if the unit between the two blocks tlos to something else.

Did you read the passage I pointed to earlier?

Let me just go ahead and read that for you:

page 22 of the BRB; exceptions, 3rd bullet point(firing through units or area terrain): "If a model fires through the gaps between some elements of area terrain(such as between two trees in a wood) or through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer."

I even have an infographic:

The red lines show the arc of fire for the rifle-dread.

The blue lines show where the dread is firing "through" the IG unit, even though it is firing Over the 1 model that would be intervening.

The Tau are in cover.

Except the red lines are the only relevant ones. You're not firing to the blue points, so they are irrelevant for determining LOS and hence cover.

If the Dread was on the ground, he'd be tracing between models and therefore shooting through a unit.

edit: Why are you measuring LoS to points that you literally cannot fire at?

Because of the text in red.

Just because you cannot fire at those 2 points, does not mean that they are irrelevant for determining if the Tau are in cover or not.

Again read the Quote from page 22; If you are firing between 2 models in a unit, then the target is in cover, even if those 2 models do not obscure any part of the target.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Because of the text in red.

Just because you cannot fire at those 2 points, does not mean that they are irrelevant for determining if the Tau are in cover or not.

Again read the Quote from page 22; If you are firing between 2 models in a unit, then the target is in cover, even if those 2 models do not obscure any part of the target.

If you're firing, you're drawing line of sight.
If you're drawing line of sight, it must be along the barrel of the weapon to the target.
You don't draw line of sight to points off in the middle of the board.

The red parts in the quote cover firing through coherency space - there's nothing LoS blocking there, so the unit is completely visible to the firer, but there is an intervening unit.

No, the parts in red cover exactly what they say they cover: the gaps between 2 models in a unit.

Guess what the area between the red lines go through? The gap between models "B", and "C".

The fact is you are firing through the IG unit since the models "B" and "C" are on the same level along the firing path of the dread.

The same would be true if there were trees in place of models "B" and "C" were you to replace the IG unit with a "woods" area terrain.

The rest of the quoted paragraph does go on to explain that firing OVER units/terrain does not count for cover.

It is not about having permission to look at the Points, or along the Blue Lines; It is about Necessity. Just because "B" and "C" are outside your lines of fire, does not mean that the abstacted moving unit is not going to foul your shot(that is the fluff-stification for the firing through models/units).

Kommissar Kel wrote:No, the parts in red cover exactly what they say they cover: the gaps between 2 models in a unit.

Guess what the area between the red lines go through? The gap between models "B", and "C".

The fact is you are firing through the IG unit since the models "B" and "C" are on the same level along the firing path of the dread.

The same would be true if there were trees in place of models "B" and "C" were you to replace the IG unit with a "woods" area terrain.

The rest of the quoted paragraph does go on to explain that firing OVER units/terrain does not count for cover.

It is not about having permission to look at the Points, or along the Blue Lines; It is about Necessity. Just because "B" and "C" are outside your lines of fire, does not mean that the abstacted moving unit is not going to foul your shot(that is the fluff-stification for the firing through models/units).

Okay, so the blue lines in your picture are irrelevant, you've changed your argument - that's fine.
The red lines go over the gaps in the unit if the Dread is high enough. Not through.
Since it's impossible to tell if the IG unit is in fact in the path of the firing unit (along the barrel, not along the ground) from a 2d picture taken from overhead, that picture is worthless.

Yes, if the line of sight you trace goes through a unit cover is granted.
If that dread is 4 feet off the ground (big cliff) the IG unit isn't in the way (it could be shorter and still not be in the way, but that number sounded good). Because you'd be firing over the unit.
In fact, given any "real" elevation (about the height of an IG trooper) I'd bet that dread wouldn't give cover when shooting.

I get what Kel is saying but it's just a really weird way of explaining it. Also the dreadnought on a hill makes the whole thing alot more complicated.

The rule is simply stating that if you are firing through a unit (not over, not sure about under) then that grants a cover save. The thought behind the rule is things aren't static so the squad in the way is most likely moving and screwing up your shot. If I have 2 models 2" apart (max for coherency), there is alot of things that could trace tlos through that gap and have nothing in the way, yet that still counts as firing through a unit and thus grants cover.

I think Kel was saying just because tlos isn't blocked doesn't imply you ignore cover. The blue lines prove that the target unit is defintely being shot at through another unit (assuming the dreadnought isn't up high).

You just read what you want to read don't you?

I maintained that the blue lines are very relevant, they show that the unit is intervening as it is on the same Arc level as the target unit and thus the red lines go through the unit, not over it.

As to your second paragraph: First the whole image is described with the situation you are agreeing to. Second the distances do not have to be to scale.

Of course a dread on a 4' cliff would not have cover granted by the IG squad, then again, the Tau unit would be out of range anyways.

Kommissar Kel wrote:You just read what you want to read don't you?

I maintained that the blue lines are very relevant, they show that the unit is intervening as it is on the same Arc level as the target unit and thus the red lines go through the unit, not over it.

As to your second paragraph: First the whole image is described with the situation you are agreeing to. Second the distances do not have to be to scale.

Of course a dread on a 4' cliff would not have cover granted by the IG squad, then again, the Tau unit would be out of range anyways.

This was all going to rigeld2 right?

erikwfg wrote:I think Kel was saying just because tlos isn't blocked doesn't imply you ignore cover. The blue lines prove that the target unit is defintely being shot at through another unit (assuming the dreadnought isn't up high).

Kommissar Kel wrote:The intervening unit does not in any way block TLOS to any models in the target unit.
The intervening unit does, however, block TLOS to points on either side of the target unit.
The intervening unit grants a Cover save.

That's the part that's wrong.
Blocking LoS to things you're not firing at just doesn't matter. Yes, the empty space left by a unit will still count as an intervening unit. I'm not disputing that.
But you don't measure off to some random spot to see if that happens.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I maintained that the blue lines are very relevant, they show that the unit is intervening as it is on the same Arc level as the target unit and thus the red lines go through the unit, not over it.

How in a 2d picture can you see that the lines don't go over the unit? "Arc level" is a pointless term you're making up to sound cool - ignoring the blue lines and assuming the dread is on the same level as the IG and Tau you can tell the LoS goes through the IG unit - even though it's in clear space.
There's never a reason to measure LoS away from the unit you're targeting. The blue lines mean nothing for this discussion.

As to your second paragraph: First the whole image is described with the situation you are agreeing to. Second the distances do not have to be to scale.

So what's the use of that picture in a discussion about TLOS? If it's not to scale, and you can't tell if the dread is firing over or not... it's useless.

Of course a dread on a 4' cliff would not have cover granted by the IG squad, then again, the Tau unit would be out of range anyways.

Call it a 2' cliff. My point is that you said "The intervening unit does, however, block TLOS to points on either side of the target unit." That's wrong.
Firing through a unit does grant cover.
Tracing LoS to some random point that is not the target unit has nothing to do with granting cover.
If the dread in your picture is high enough that the red lines do not go through the IG unit (including the empty space) there is no cover granted. The blue lines are irrelevant.

Forget about the blue lines and the hill. A better picture could've been chosen, those things are just interfering.

I think all 3 of us know the rule and are saying the same thing. This seems to be all misunderstanding now.

Erik: yes, directed at Rigeld.

Rigeld: You know what; there is nothing I can say that will make you understand what I am talking about without you having the exact 3-dimensional representation physically in front of you.

Congratulations, You fail at any sort of abstract thinking.

So what you're saying (and pardon me if i misinterpret what you're saying, im very tired) is that even if that dread in the picture was replaced by say, a night-scythe, on that really tall flying base, the tau would get cover because there is an intervening unit in front of it? (Again not trying to sound stupid, just a bit confused by this thread)

Quite the opposite.

What I am saying is best described with this incredibly crude side-view:


The Orange Block is the Tau.

Basically the Dread creates a rough Vertical triangle from the Side view; the red line, the ground, a line straight down from it. Anything inside of the triangle is disregarded.

Any 2 or more models within a unit that intervenes between the shooter and the target; that is outside of the triangle(even just a head sticking out of it) grants the unit cover

Kommissar Kel wrote:Erik: yes, directed at Rigeld.

Rigeld: You know what; there is nothing I can say that will make you understand what I am talking about without you having the exact 3-dimensional representation physically in front of you.

Congratulations, You fail at any sort of abstract thinking.

See, if you'd posted that side picture it would make more sense.
Thanks for the insult though.

I'm not sure that you can count non-coherency distance, but I do see what you're saying now.
Your wording was horrendous if that's the point you were trying to get across.

I think both Rigeld and Kel are in agreement here, just wording it differently which is creating some confusion.

Both of you appear to be maintaining that you may fire over a unit without it counting as an intervening unit, however, if from the perspective of the firer, the unit in the middle is high enough that some parts of it are on either side of the target unit(and thus you are drawing LOS through the gaps between models), cover is still granted, even with elevation.

Spleen has succinctly stated exactly what I have been stating and attempting to show with the first graphic.

Here's a handy poll thread to see how people tend to interpret exactly what it means to fire *over* and intervening piece of terrain or unit:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/219003.page

God i hope they get rid of TLoS™* from the next version of 40K.

All the rules they dumbed down from 2nd ED and all the interesting nuances they squashed to make the game "flow better", and then they bring back the one stupid freakin rule that most 2nd ED players changed all on their own - exactly because it's confusing and causes heaps of arguments and is just inappropriate for a game using static models.

* ™ added to belittle the over-seriousness with which everyone seems to quote the term

TLOS was in 3rd and 4th.

People incorrectly used levels and area terrain in 4th, but the actual rules were still based around TLOS 90% of the time