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I wasted a lot of money when I started 40k buying units that were terrible, and I'd like to avoid that when I start Warmachine. To that end, I thought I'd ask the community if they could tell me what Cygnar warjacks and units were good, and which were terrible. Any insight on how best to use them would also be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

A lot of it is subjective based on playstyle. One of the top cygnar players swears by two units of long gunners to threaten control zones, but many players (myself included) do not care for the unit. I believe you should have a good idea of how something should play before you buy it, either by familiarity with your playstyle or by proxying it.
There are some models that are almost universally loved though. The black 13th, squire, and stormclad jump to mind when I think of the all-stars of cygnar. Most people also like gun mages (always with officer!) and stormblades for units, but how many attachments to add to the blades is a point of debate. The defender, hunter, and minutemen warjacks are also generally well received; as is our character warjack Ol'Rowdy. Cygnar can also make extensive use of mercenaries, but some people prefer to maintain "faction purity" for reasons I cannot understand.

I'd recommend any of these to start with:

Light Jacks:
Charger (boost attack AND damage for 1 FOC)
Sentinel (D3 shots + strafe)
Firefly (counts as a triangulation point for stormcallers)

Heavy:
Defender (most powerful, longest rage gun in the game)
Ironclad (Decent melee fighter)

Units:
Stormblades (with full UA, they don't cost much)
Arcane Gun Mages
Stormguard (fun unit, kind of expensive)

Solos
Squire (must-have)
Journeyman warcaster (can take it's own warjack, has 3 focus)
Stormsmith Stormcallers (I don't honestly know where to begin telling you how useful these guys are with all three on the board)

I've used most of what I have listed (Minus the defender, I use Triumph, 3" AOE ftw), and they do fairly well.

The regular Gun Mages are nice, but only become really useful when you field them with Haley or one of the Caines.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the Centurion and it has a great new plastic model.

It really depends on the caster or casters (I probably would pick up 2 to start with in case you plan on playing in tournaments).

That being said I throw out what I think are the most useful Cygnar models for every caster.

Heavy Jacks:
Ironclad - relativity cheap for heavy but the cheapest Cygnar heavy, good normal beatstick for most lists
Thunderhead - a character jack that is great for both distance assassination and anti infantry duties, points heavy but worth it
Defender - can crack armor at long range and still mix it up in combat when needed

Light Jacks:
Lancer - if your caster wants an archnode (and many Cygnar casters do) its the only one we have thats no a Character. Probably the only cygnar jack you really will need.
Charger - 2 POW 12 boosted shots can kill casters, focus hungry but not bad
Hunter - the extend control range is nice, as is AP but its kind of hit or miss

Units:
Gun Mages w/UA - magical guns and with the UA the ability to ignore stealth, a great jack marshal and probably the most well rounded unit out there
Sword Knights - the "cheap" cost Cygnar unit, great speed bump if you use the right buffs.
Storm "whatever" - any of the storm units are good additions to a Cygnar list, Blades are the most popular.

Solos:
Arland Strangeways - he alone is cheaper and more useful than a unit of mechanics
Stormcallers - a 1 point filler that there are so many uses for
Jr. Warcaster - they don't need a jack to be effective, arcane shield is a great versatile spell that ever caster loves to have.

Depending on what caster you take you probably will want the character jack these are the ones that I never leave home without.
Stryker - Ol'Roudy
Haley - Thorn
Blaze - Galliant


What I really would consider doing is picking 2 casters that you like, and then building 15 point lists with them as well as perhaps a 25 point list. This game as a somewhat steep learning curve and you dont want to jump in to 35 or 50 point games without knowing the core rules and your own army fairly well.

Ok, for general ideas about how to use things I would look at battle collage. Some of the rules are quoted wrongly but it'll give you good flavour about how to use things.

As for avoiding those terrible combinations, look at battlecollege and use a list building software to create a list, post it here and people will point you in the right direction (hopefully ).

Oh, and Anung Un Rama, Gun mages are good in most lists as they can do multiple jobs, especially in scenarios when thunderbolt can be used. But of course I could be wrong

I would recommend picking up the Cygnar battle box. Having just made the jump from 40k myself this was the route I went, and I would definately recommend it. The box contians pStryker, the Lancer, Charger and Ironclad. All three of the jacks are really useful and have been mentioned above. From there I would add another unit (Squire or Black 13th is what I'm looking at) and maybe try another caster to see what playstyle you prefer.

creeping-deth87 wrote:I wasted a lot of money when I started 40k buying units that were terrible, and I'd like to avoid that when I start Warmachine. To that end, I thought I'd ask the community if they could tell me what Cygnar warjacks and units were good, and which were terrible. Any insight on how best to use them would also be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

That was one of the things that pushed me away from 40k actually, the number of really freaking sweet models that were just useless on the table top. WM/H doesn't suffer from this problem nearly as much, as long as you plan out some kind of synergy in your lists damn near everything is playable. It come from the emphasis on balance and having a tight ruleset for competetions, which -oddly- really help out the casual gamers like myself.

Will everything be top top tier tourney level cool? Well no, but you won't see any Ogryn or Vespid level useless units either. Everything, damn near, is totally viable.

(I mean there are exceptions- Drudges in Cryx are just awful for example but thats the only bad entry in an entire army book of stuff people complain about being broken lol, there might be a unit similar in Cygnar but damned if I know what it is)

Anung Un Rama wrote:The regular Gun Mages are nice, but only become really useful when you field them with Haley or one of the Caines.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the Centurion and it has a great new plastic model.

I have yet to field a Centurion, I'm holding out for the plastic kit to be honest...

Is there any estimated release date for that kit?

War machine doesn't have any truly *awful* units, with a bit of effort and in the write matchup even underperformers or overcosted things will get a chance to shine.

That said some real standouts in Cygnar:

Warjacks
-Defender: Has that sweet, sweet Heavy Barrel. Puts some hurt downrange in a big way.
-Stormclad: Great threat range and power.
-Thunderhead: Versatility and Infantry Clearing

Units
Gunmages + UA: Good shooters. Great 'Jack Marshal
Black 13th Gunmage Strike Team: Great Shooters, versatile.
Mercs: Boomhowler's Company: Provides tough, versatile front-liners cygnar otherwise lacks

Solos
Squire: Good luck finding it.
Journeyman Warcaster: Basically an auto-include for most lists. Runs a 2-Focus ranged 'jack like a boss, gives you another +3 ARM buff.
Arlan Strageways: Great 'Jack support. Can even repairs things better than anyone, should that somehow become relevant. Would be worth it if he had nothing but power booster on his card.


As for "Terrible" nothing really. Do be aware that with the current rulings, the Sentiel's "Shield Guard" ability, basically doesn't work.

Thanks for the help guys, this has been great.

I was kinda thinking of running mostly ranged warjacks, like a couple of Chargers and a Defender perhaps in a 25 pt list, with some good close combat units to protect them from melee; perhaps Stormblades or Precusor Knights? Does that work?

One thing to watch out for: you probably can only run one charger effectively, as it can be rather focus thirsty.

Also, you definitely want some melee. in any scenario other than mangled metal, pure gunline suffers. if you want to be more shooting, grab a big unit of Stormblades, as they can shoot pretty well. If you want cheap melee, I would recommend Sword Knights.

Don't overlook the oomph a unit of Precursor Knights with the UA can put out either.

curran12 wrote:Don't overlook the oomph a unit of Precursor Knights with the UA can put out either.

or sword knights. 6pt of tarpitty goodness. and i've seen nemo bring them up to ARM21 with Jr in tow... trycracking that at range...

to be fair to the OP, this game isnt like the GW ones. there are no truly "terrible" units as you see in 40k. there is no "list", "how to" guide or "take this and win" units. If i say i want to play Imperial Guard on the 40k boards, and ask what to take, i'll get 3 dozen variations of "take the leafblower spam. its the r0xxorzzz". If you say you want to play cygnar and ask what to take, you wont get that as an answer. you'll be told "blue stuff". And "maybe some mercs".

its not about taking a 6 and 2 3s however. and everything being equal. More important than *what* you take is *what you take alongside what you take*. its all about the synnergies. everything in this game can be built into an effective, winning strategy, but not everything works with everything else. Whilst i regularly play against cygnar, my own factions are khador/circle so i'll give you an example of what i mean there. Karchev and irusk. Karchev is a "jack caster". he runs warjacks exceptionally well, through his feat, his "powerslide" and his "buff everything" spell, unearthly rage. he's got no spells or abilities (active or passive) to give to infantry, however. So, if you take karchev just with infantry, you're really losing out - its not an optimum build. its the opposite with irusk. Irusk loves an infantry swarm. and a single jack. irusk is an infantry buffing support caster. give him 6 jacks and you're losing out. again, its not an optimum build, as all his spells (bar one rather excellent single jack buffing spell) and feat are all about the grunts. so there, with one caster, 4 jacks is good, but with the other, 4 jacks is bad. See? there is now hard and fast rule for "what is good". khador's infantry are nothing if not self sufficient, so dont feel that Karchev is forced into "only" jacks. he's happy with 3 or 4, and a squad or two of grunts in support. As with irusk, he's happy with 2 or 3 squads of infantry, and one jack in support.

So you see, its not as clear cut as "X is great, Y is terrible." Its closer to say "X is great with CasterA, Y wouldnt offer him much, but is a lot more useful with caster B, with a really cool synnergy with unit F". I'll re-iterate. Everything can be built into an effective, winning strategy. So rather than asking a very awkward question that we cant really answer, i'll ask you one in return. What kind of game do you want to play? what style do you favour? attrition? denial? ranged? melee? assassination? do you like armour? infantry? lightning? What style you want to play would probably help us guide you a bit more effectively, rather than saying "take this, this and this!"

another thing to take on board is not to take the internet group think to heart in this game. too often i've seen the theory spouted online not match up to the game in real life. gun mages for example. every cygnar player loves them. and rightly so. high def, good range, great abilities. gun mages are excellent. my mate took a whole army of them against my epic Irusk "brick" list though in a tournament scenario, and i steamrolled him. they'd have shredded my light infantry, but against ARM21 men o war, they were popping peashooters at me! every meta is different. what works here in scotland mightnt work with you. and what works now wont work forever. one guy in the store with a new unit that changes his style might completely throw everybody else, for a time. untl they cop onto his game and beat him at it with new stuff. So, for example a player who wins unceasingly with a high Def army might give the view of a broken army. until he meets a bile thrall who purges and wipes out *everything* in a single turn. the meta in warmahordes, unlike that in 40k (which is stagant outisde of the first 4 months of a new edition) is liquid. its fluid, its constantly in motion, and ever changing. Nothing stays the same. As soon as something reaches "the top", its knocked off by something else. As an example, Men o War get a bad rap for their speed and price. desite being slightly overcosted (IMO) but im starting to see *huge* potential for them in my games now, for example. theyy're a bedrock of my epic Irusk 50pt army. Also, expect to lose. expect to lose a lot. especially when you start. thats the nature of the game. it has a *huge* learning curve. its to be expected. everyone goes through it, and has to cut their teeth on quite a few decimations before they can even start to think about "getting it". So when you do lose, dont take it to heart. dont take it that somehow you've got the tau of warmachine because you're losing. dont think because of "unit x" that you're losing. you lose in this game because the other guy had more skill, had more experience, and outmanoevered you, outthought you and outfought you. its that simple. and as a new player, it happens a lot. i actually embrace those thrashings - they up my game. it is a part of the warmachine learning curve. So knuckle down, learn, learn some more, pick your targets and keep coming back to try and bring them crashing to the earth. play like you got a pair.

Deadnight has got it on the nose. Almost everything is awesome in the right hands, however Darius will have a much different list than Caine, or even Kraye.

What Deadnight said is the main reason I left 40k and started up WM/H.

I started with the Starter Box and from everything I've seen and read the 3 jacks you get with it will have some usefulness which ever way you go from there. I enjoyed playing Stryker so, I bought Ol' Rowdy to go with him. From there I don't know where I'm going to go, but that is the fun of WM/H.

If you get a caster and look at their theme list in your army book, generally you'll get yourself a half decent, playable army that you can learn to use effectively yourself. Very few tier lists are utter pap. really depends on your caster.

WaaaaghLord wrote:If you get a caster and look at their theme list in your army book, generally you'll get yourself a half decent, playable army that you can learn to use effectively yourself. Very few tier lists are utter pap. really depends on your caster.

That does not work for some cygnar casters. The theme lists in the cygnar book are generally well below average on power level and leave you scratching your head on some requirements/omissions. it was the second force book and theme lists were rather poor back when they first started them.

Deadnight wrote:

curran12 wrote:Don't overlook the oomph a unit of Precursor Knights with the UA can put out either.

or sword knights. 6pt of tarpitty goodness. and i've seen nemo bring them up to ARM21 with Jr in tow... trycracking that at range...

to be fair to the OP, this game isnt like the GW ones. there are no truly "terrible" units as you see in 40k. there is no "list", "how to" guide or "take this and win" units. If i say i want to play Imperial Guard on the 40k boards, and ask what to take, i'll get 3 dozen variations of "take the leafblower spam. its the r0xxorzzz". If you say you want to play cygnar and ask what to take, you wont get that as an answer. you'll be told "blue stuff". And "maybe some mercs".

its not about taking a 6 and 2 3s however. and everything being equal. More important than *what* you take is *what you take alongside what you take*. its all about the synnergies. everything in this game can be built into an effective, winning strategy, but not everything works with everything else. Whilst i regularly play against cygnar, my own factions are khador/circle so i'll give you an example of what i mean there. Karchev and irusk. Karchev is a "jack caster". he runs warjacks exceptionally well, through his feat, his "powerslide" and his "buff everything" spell, unearthly rage. he's got no spells or abilities (active or passive) to give to infantry, however. So, if you take karchev just with infantry, you're really losing out - its not an optimum build. its the opposite with irusk. Irusk loves an infantry swarm. and a single jack. irusk is an infantry buffing support caster. give him 6 jacks and you're losing out. again, its not an optimum build, as all his spells (bar one rather excellent single jack buffing spell) and feat are all about the grunts. so there, with one caster, 4 jacks is good, but with the other, 4 jacks is bad. See? there is now hard and fast rule for "what is good". khador's infantry are nothing if not self sufficient, so dont feel that Karchev is forced into "only" jacks. he's happy with 3 or 4, and a squad or two of grunts in support. As with irusk, he's happy with 2 or 3 squads of infantry, and one jack in support.

So you see, its not as clear cut as "X is great, Y is terrible." Its closer to say "X is great with CasterA, Y wouldnt offer him much, but is a lot more useful with caster B, with a really cool synnergy with unit F". I'll re-iterate. Everything can be built into an effective, winning strategy. So rather than asking a very awkward question that we cant really answer, i'll ask you one in return. What kind of game do you want to play? what style do you favour? attrition? denial? ranged? melee? assassination? do you like armour? infantry? lightning? What style you want to play would probably help us guide you a bit more effectively, rather than saying "take this, this and this!"

another thing to take on board is not to take the internet group think to heart in this game. too often i've seen the theory spouted online not match up to the game in real life. gun mages for example. every cygnar player loves them. and rightly so. high def, good range, great abilities. gun mages are excellent. my mate took a whole army of them against my epic Irusk "brick" list though in a tournament scenario, and i steamrolled him. they'd have shredded my light infantry, but against ARM21 men o war, they were popping peashooters at me! every meta is different. what works here in scotland mightnt work with you. and what works now wont work forever. one guy in the store with a new unit that changes his style might completely throw everybody else, for a time. untl they cop onto his game and beat him at it with new stuff. So, for example a player who wins unceasingly with a high Def army might give the view of a broken army. until he meets a bile thrall who purges and wipes out *everything* in a single turn. the meta in warmahordes, unlike that in 40k (which is stagant outisde of the first 4 months of a new edition) is liquid. its fluid, its constantly in motion, and ever changing. Nothing stays the same. As soon as something reaches "the top", its knocked off by something else. As an example, Men o War get a bad rap for their speed and price. desite being slightly overcosted (IMO) but im starting to see *huge* potential for them in my games now, for example. theyy're a bedrock of my epic Irusk 50pt army. Also, expect to lose. expect to lose a lot. especially when you start. thats the nature of the game. it has a *huge* learning curve. its to be expected. everyone goes through it, and has to cut their teeth on quite a few decimations before they can even start to think about "getting it". So when you do lose, dont take it to heart. dont take it that somehow you've got the tau of warmachine because you're losing. dont think because of "unit x" that you're losing. you lose in this game because the other guy had more skill, had more experience, and outmanoevered you, outthought you and outfought you. its that simple. and as a new player, it happens a lot. i actually embrace those thrashings - they up my game. it is a part of the warmachine learning curve. So knuckle down, learn, learn some more, pick your targets and keep coming back to try and bring them crashing to the earth. play like you got a pair.

This post was tremendously helpful. I've heard Warmachine players state that there are no 'bad' units to pick in your army, and I always thought this was rubbish, but it seems it's the truth. Alright, I'll bite. I'd like to do a Cygnar army that's balanced between melee and range. There are some units I'd really love to use because of how they look, and those are: Stormblades, Precusrsor Knights, Sword Knights, hell pretty much anything with swords. Stormblades in particular I like. All I currently have is the Cygnar starter box, where should I go from there?

creeping-deth87 wrote:
. Alright, I'll bite. I'd like to do a Cygnar army that's balanced between melee and range. There are some units I'd really love to use because of how they look, and those are: Stormblades, Precusrsor Knights, Sword Knights, hell pretty much anything with swords. Stormblades in particular I like. All I currently have is the Cygnar starter box, where should I go from there?

You are in great luck. Stormblades are an exceptional hybrid ranged and melee unit with attachments that grant them more ranged utility while keeping their melee punch. You should go for them for sure. The stormclad warjack also has a strong synergy with the unit and packs it's own short range gun and the strongest non-colossal punch in the army. The module of stormblades and a stormclad can work well in most lists without much effort. The only question is which attachments you want for he stormblades. The officer and standard let the unit shoot when they charge and give them area effects when they hit allowing them to chew through tightly packed infantry. Storm gunners are very strong ranged models in their own right and since they are part of the unit accuracy-enhancing spells extend to all of them.
From there you need to try to find out which warcaster you want to use and what points level you are going to. you can easily play 25 points with full stormblades and substituting your ironclad with the stormclad. (I don't want to give the impression the ironclad is bad, but a warcaster only has so much focus to go around.) After you get a feel for the game you will know what sort of units you like or what you think you are missing.

Sword knights are what you might call a tar pit. They are cheap and moderately effective infantry with slightly above-average staying power that helps them disrupt the enemy more than damage them. This unit's officer has a different purpose and is almost an accompanying solo since he doesn't mesh with the unit's goals of being a cheap sponge. What he brings is the best jack marshal in the faction and an easy way to trigger the unit's flank ability to increase their damage.
Precursors are a hard-hitting dedicated melee unit that are immune to spells -friendly and enemy. They can be a bit trickier to use since they are immune to direct and overt spells which make them better. they can still benefit from spells that cover an area or affect an enemy though. Their officer is a good buy for them since he gives them one turn of hitting even harder.

eStryker works well with Stormblades I think, but I've never played him myself.

eHaley also likes Stormblades, Deadeye makes their Assault Order much more accurate and Deceleration helps them to get there.

In return, they help reduce her focus load on that bonded Stormclad...

There aren't many casters that don't work well with storm blades. Them being a deceptively fragile hybrid unit, they get a lot out of both defensive and offensive buffs. Off the top of my head the only casters that don't have anything to offer them are Darius, Siege, and eCaine. Even then eCaine and siege can do a little for their def vs. ranged attacks.
I also want to point out that while they are great, they have their weaknesses and won't win you games alone. I don't want to give anyone the wrong idea that you can march stormblades up as a front line or that they will get charges off without you putting considerable effort into it.

Oh definitely, Siege is the caster I'm working with right now and Stormblades are one of the furthest things from my mind when I look at theorycrafting a list for him.

Think of my post as more of an idea of how to look at synergizing a caster and a unit before purchasing anything.



Now, Gun Mages, I'm pretty sure I can find room for those in just about any caster's list with the UA and the right jack(s) marshalled...

creeping-deth87 wrote:
This post was tremendously helpful. I've heard Warmachine players state that there are no 'bad' units to pick in your army, and I always thought this was rubbish, but it seems it's the truth. Alright, I'll bite. I'd like to do a Cygnar army that's balanced between melee and range. There are some units I'd really love to use because of how they look, and those are: Stormblades, Precusrsor Knights, Sword Knights, hell pretty much anything with swords. Stormblades in particular I like. All I currently have is the Cygnar starter box, where should I go from there?

Once you've got your melee option nailed down, I cannot stress how awesome I've found the Black 13th Gun Mages to be. From the solid reliability of their RAT to the number of different abilities they have access to, the B13 have it all and are absolutely worth using in your army.

Anung Un Rama wrote:The regular Gun Mages are nice, but only become really useful when you field them with Haley or one of the Caines.

Sorry, but this statement could not be further from the truth. They have arguably the best jack marshal in the game in the UA, they are a toolbox that can hunt high def reliably, board control, and have a boarder line silly defense. Siege makes them better with Foxhole, Magesight and deadly on the feat turn (DEF 19 and immune to blasts), pStryker has snipe and blur, Kara has Deadeye and her feat, Blaize has transferance, Kraye has Magesight and they're a good target for Pursuit. The only ones who don't directly help the ATGM are eStryker cause he's too busy trying to get his hair to lay down, xNemo cause he's too busy playing with the power outlet, and Darius who is too busy looking at the Stormwall and saying "I'm relevant again". So for those, they're just really good on their own.

12thRonin wrote:

Anung Un Rama wrote:The regular Gun Mages are nice, but only become really useful when you field them with Haley or one of the Caines.

Sorry, but this statement could not be further from the truth. They have arguably the best jack marshal in the game in the UA, they are a toolbox that can hunt high def reliably, board control, and have a boarder line silly defense. Siege makes them better with Foxhole, Magesight and deadly on the feat turn (DEF 19 and immune to blasts), pStryker has snipe and blur, Kara has Deadeye and her feat, Blaize has transferance, Kraye has Magesight and they're a good target for Pursuit. The only ones who don't directly help the ATGM are eStryker cause he's too busy trying to get his hair to lay down, xNemo cause he's too busy playing with the power outlet, and Darius who is too busy looking at the Stormwall and saying "I'm relevant again". So for those, they're just really good on their own.

Sorry, I recently had a game where I fielded the gun mages for the first time in MK2 and they just seemed a lot less usefull without their cortex-frying shot and without the extra die on attack rolls.
I haven't tried the UA yet. But I did finish painting him last night. As well as my Defender.

I agree gun mages are overhyped but they are still a solid unit and can do very well if you can get them in position safely. I have my issues with their low power and limited combined attack, but you have to love true sight and thunderbolt. As for jack marshals, I'd take pronto over snipe, but sword knights with officer don't bring the same utility as gun mages with officer so it can be an easy compromise.

The jack can use any of the Dude's shot types, not just snipe. Crit brutal is the stuff, particularly if Strangewayes is nearby to power boost it. Thunderbolt is also very nice, particularly on a Cyclone.

12thRonin wrote:

Anung Un Rama wrote:The regular Gun Mages are nice, but only become really useful when you field them with Haley or one of the Caines.

Sorry, but this statement could not be further from the truth. They have arguably the best jack marshal in the game in the UA, they are a toolbox that can hunt high def reliably, board control, and have a boarder line silly defense. Siege makes them better with Foxhole, Magesight and deadly on the feat turn (DEF 19 and immune to blasts), pStryker has snipe and blur, Kara has Deadeye and her feat, Blaize has transferance, Kraye has Magesight and they're a good target for Pursuit. The only ones who don't directly help the ATGM are eStryker cause he's too busy trying to get his hair to lay down, xNemo cause he's too busy playing with the power outlet, and Darius who is too busy looking at the Stormwall and saying "I'm relevant again". So for those, they're just really good on their own.

I may be misremembering, but Gun Mages don't benefit from Magesight since it's battlegroup only.

Still, my Siege lists all include them because I can offload the second Defender to the UA to Marshal and feat turn against heavy infantry is going to be hilarious