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According to the new allies rules the Tau can play as brothers in arms with Codex chapter Marines but not the other type of Space Marines. Is this a sign of a new direct of Space Marine/Tau fluff?

We. Don't. Know. The new rulebook is less than a week away.

juraigamer wrote:We. Don't. Know. The new rulebook is less than a week away.

Yeah, but it is fun to speculate to pass the time until we get the facts. It is part of being a rabid fan. If you find such speculation irritating, or don’t see the point, I would recommend avoiding 40K forums until Saturday.

Well, speculate is one thing, but Tau and Space Marine interaction is a bit like asking about stem cell research in the church of a religion spawned off of Christianity.

As of now, though, as juraigamer stated, the point of discussing Tau and Space Marines as brothers in arms and the possibility of new fluff is... moot.

We don't know if Tau and Space Marines are brothers in arms. We don't know if any armies are brothers in arms. We don't even know for certain what the different levels of alliance does, it's only been hinted that there are different levels.

All we know is that under certain circumstances Tau and Space Marines may fight side by side without shooting at each other. For the duration of that battle. Possibly.

Personally I'd prefer to consult BOB when he rolls around.

I'd guess that team-tourney chart would be a hint of some sort, but I'm going to go with Mahtamori and say it's still very up-in-the-air.

Zookie wrote:According to the new allies rules the Tau can play as brothers in arms with Codex chapter Marines but not the other type of Space Marines. Is this a sign of a new direct of Space Marine/Tau fluff?

No, it's a sign of how a doubles tournament was run some time ago. 'Brothers in Arms' are not a part of the 6th ed allies rules.

Tau have finally become technologically advanced enough to create their own Space Marines and Primarchs

Ok sorry to shut this down but no it isn't. Why would a xenos hating imperium forge a permanent alliance with a xenos species? They WOULDN'T. Fact.
Alliance of convenience maybe. But as soon as the immediate threat is dealt with they go back to knocking each others teeth out, provided they have any left after the immediate threat is dealt with.

EDIT: and why would Tau start messing with Genetics when their technology means they don't have to? Answer: They wouldn't, they'd just make bigger and better battlesuits...

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:Ok sorry to shut this down but no it isn't. Why would a xenos hating imperium forge a permanent alliance with a xenos species? They WOULDN'T. Fact.
Alliance of convenience maybe. But as soon as the immediate threat is dealt with they go back to knocking each others teeth out, provided they have any left after the immediate threat is dealt with.

EDIT: and why would Tau start messing with Genetics when their technology means they don't have to? Answer: They wouldn't, they'd just make bigger and better battlesuits...

Why would Tau pilot the battle suits themselves when they can breed genetically superior pilots

Also, clearly Tau has conquered enough Space Marine worlds to be able to have a Space Marine Army

Im still trying to understand why IG isnt a BB for Tau tho

I WANT GUE'VASA

I still think Farsight shows up and offers Kantor to join him in an anti-Ork crusade. Would be very cool from both a fluff and gameplay perspective (would require light retconning too).

Talamare wrote:Why would Tau pilot the battle suits themselves when they can breed genetically superior pilots

Also, clearly Tau has conquered enough Space Marine worlds to be able to have a Space Marine Army

Im still trying to understand why IG isnt a BB for Tau tho

I WANT GUE'VASA

Because they have a caste system. It's genetic. You are born to be what you are. Messing with genetics completely screws with the caste system's philosophy. They look at the Kroot as barbaric for eating the slain in order to absorb their genetics. Why would the Tau encourage genetic experimentation and manipulation in their own species if they find the Kroot's method abhorrent? Why would they think a different method of it is any less abhorrent? Not only that but they have sterilised alien species for being alien to them... why would they then introduce that alien's DNA into their own or try to produce a similar genetic structure in their own DNA? They are just like the imperium in their views of the alien, its just they're black and white about it (instead of just one side). Think of it in the same light as werewolves and vampires in Underworld, they absolutely revile the idea of a crossing of the blood lines.

insaniak wrote:

Zookie wrote:According to the new allies rules the Tau can play as brothers in arms with Codex chapter Marines but not the other type of Space Marines. Is this a sign of a new direct of Space Marine/Tau fluff?

No, it's a sign of how a doubles tournament was run some time ago. 'Brothers in Arms' are not a part of the 6th ed allies rules.

Tau are Battle Brothers with vanilla Space Marines in 6th Edition.

e; Pretty sure the Tau are the race the Emperor said were imune to Chaos/the Warp, so the Ultramarines are out to protect/become BFFs with them. Hence the Battle Brothers ruleset.

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:

Talamare wrote:Why would Tau pilot the battle suits themselves when they can breed genetically superior pilots

Also, clearly Tau has conquered enough Space Marine worlds to be able to have a Space Marine Army

Im still trying to understand why IG isnt a BB for Tau tho

I WANT GUE'VASA

Because they have a caste system. It's genetic. You are born to be what you are. Messing with genetics completely screws with the caste system's philosophy. They look at the Kroot as barbaric for eating the slain in order to absorb their genetics. Why would the Tau encourage genetic experimentation and manipulation in their own species if they find the Kroot's method abhorrent? Why would they think a different method of it is any less abhorrent? Not only that but they have sterilised alien species for being alien to them... why would they then introduce that alien's DNA into their own or try to produce a similar genetic structure in their own DNA? They are just like the imperium in their views of the alien, its just they're black and white about it (instead of just one side). Think of it in the same light as werewolves and vampires in Underworld, they absolutely revile the idea of a crossing of the blood lines.

I fully understand the Caste system, but as they use Kroot and Gue'vasa as auxillery troops, nothing in their doctrine prevents them from using captured Space Marines, or creating their own Space Marines for the task

Note, Create their own Space Marines, not genetically enhance their DNA nor interbreed

Talamare wrote:I WANT GUE'VASA

You can still have Gue'vesa. Everybody going nuts over what level of Alliance people are with eachother strikes me as Autistic as feth.
I'm making a Gue'vesa contingent, some Ultrasmurfs working to protect the Tau, some Eldar who have "joined" The Greater Good to use the Tau, some mind controlled Orks, and some XVwegrabbedthedialandturneditupto 11 close combat Battlesuits acting as Grey Knights.

Honestly all Battle Brother lets you do is put IC into each others units and use psychic powers on eachother.
I can't see Gue'vesa ordering Tau around the battlefield. . .And since Battlesuit commanders will more often than not be with a Bodyguard or other Crisis Suits, who cares if IG-Tau are "Allies of Convenience"?

XV8 Crisis Suit wrote:Honestly all Battle Brother lets you do is put IC into each others units and use psychic powers on eachother.
I can't see Gue'vesa ordering Tau around the battlefield. . .And since Battlesuit commanders will more often than not be with a Bodyguard or other Crisis Suits, who cares if IG-Tau are "Allies of Convenience"?

Makes sense

I think Terminators with Helmets might be able to be fluffed into a new Battlesuit XD

Talamare wrote:I fully understand the Caste system, but as they use Kroot and Gue'vasa as auxillery troops, nothing in their doctrine prevents them from using captured Space Marines, or creating their own Space Marines for the task

Note, Create their own Space Marines, not genetically enhance their DNA nor interbreed

I can see your point here about creating their own space marines, captured ones are just as likely to fight back as soon as you give them a weapon so I don't think they are as much of a viable option. Creating their own space marines is indeed possible I suppose, but why would they mess with another aliens DNA to make 'super soldiers' and effectively run the risk of those creations turning against them. If they did it with Tau DNA, which I suspect they would probably be more inclined to do, there would probably be political/cultural fall out over the matter. So again I just can't see it happening, if you look at kroot and vespid they actually have access to a very limited amount of Tau technology, which suggest to me they aren't as ready to put aliens in their prized battle suits etc. otherwise you'd see Tau handing them out left, right and centre. This I believe is directly related to the caste system in which those that aren't Tau are second class citizens, citizens none the less, but still of a lower class. This suggests Tau created space marines wouldn't be as well armed as their Imperium counter parts, and would be similarly equipped as kroot or vespid or gue'vasa humans.

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:

Talamare wrote:I fully understand the Caste system, but as they use Kroot and Gue'vasa as auxillery troops, nothing in their doctrine prevents them from using captured Space Marines, or creating their own Space Marines for the task

Note, Create their own Space Marines, not genetically enhance their DNA nor interbreed

I can see your point here about creating their own space marines, captured ones are just as likely to fight back as soon as you give them a weapon so I don't think they are as much of a viable option. Creating their own space marines is indeed possible I suppose, but why would they mess with another aliens DNA to make 'super soldiers' and effectively run the risk of those creations turning against them. If they did it with Tau DNA, which I suspect they would probably be more inclined to do, there would probably be political/cultural fall out over the matter. So again I just can't see it happening, if you look at kroot and vespid they actually have access to a very limited amount of Tau technology, which suggest to me they aren't as ready to put aliens in their prized battle suits etc. otherwise you'd see Tau handing them out left, right and centre. This I believe is directly related to the caste system in which those that aren't Tau are second class citizens, citizens none the less, but still of a lower class. This suggests Tau created space marines wouldn't be as well armed as their Imperium counter parts, and would be similarly equipped as kroot or vespid or gue'vasa humans.

In the Tau Fluff from their first codex, the would trade battle-suits to Imperial govenors to help sway them away from the imperium. They also trade tech to many races to obtain what they need. Don't confuse what's available in the codex for what they would really do. The Tau Empire codex was written during a low-point in GW codex writing.

The Kroot are supposed to be mercenaries that fight stubbornly but only to the point of how much equipment the were paid to fight for. Hopefully the next codex will have Kroot Specific wargear that for each item purchased, ups their leadership from a base of say... Stubborn 6.

As for the Vespids?? Tell me you wouldn't upgrade 1 FW squad to that weapon if you could. S 5 AP 3 shooty Assault. Yeah, thats Tau baby.

Yeah but a lot of that fluff from the first codex was altered in the second. In the first the Kroot were part of the empire not mercenaries. In the second they've become contracted mercenaries to the Tau. Also a lot of the technology iirc was older specs making it a useless tool if they chose to turn it against the Tau.

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:Yeah but a lot of that fluff from the first codex was altered in the second. In the first the Kroot were part of the empire not mercenaries. In the second they've become contracted mercenaries to the Tau. Also a lot of the technology iirc was older specs making it a useless tool if they chose to turn it against the Tau.

The Kroot Merc list from before Tau Empires means that your wrong. They are part of the Empire now.

OT: I'm thinking of the Bolter and Chainsword's Dornian Heresy fan-fluff.

Where is this story about the Ultramarines protecting the Tau coming from? I know the rumor circulated, but from everything I understand, it's not in the new rulebook at all. In fact, the only mention that people seem to have found when this topic has come up, is a battle between the Ultramarines and Tau, lol.

However, the Tau/SM Brothers in Arms thing is somewhat troubling. I don't like the idea of that potential pairing. Allies of Convenience I'm cool with. But "Battle Brothers" seems to change the fundamental truth of 40K, that the Space Marines are a bunch of xenophobic jerks who fight for the Emprah. I'm wary of any change to that, especially after 20 years of it being truth. I understand that Codex: Space Marines is actually Codex: Ultramarines, but if the Ultramarines are going to have some kind of revelation or enlightenment, it needed to be in a way that doesn't suddenly change all Space Marines. I mean, fluff wise, something like 80% of Space Marine chapters should be using Codex: Space Marines, lol. Are they all friendly with the Tau now?

Dunno. Guess we'll see.

Kroot mercenaries weren't part of the Tau empire thats the point of that list. I have that WD some where. It's like Ogre Maneaters in Ogre Kingdoms of WHFB they are part of the Ogres army but they can be hired by other armies. Kroot are part of the Tau Empire, they signed a peace treaty with them and were accepted into the empire by the Tau on the condition they fight for them. The Tau took them in hoping to one day change the eating the dead thing. Kroot mercenaries were exactly that, mercenaries, they are kroot who have left the empire to find their own path. This doesn't stop them going back to the empire when they've seen enough/eaten enough or fulfilled whatever reason they became mercenaries for.

EDIT: Also the Tau consider it an Honour to be given a battlesuit. Why would they bestow that Honour on a lesser class of citizen over their own class of citizen?

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:Kroot mercenaries weren't part of the Tau empire thats the point of that list. I have that WD some where. It's like Ogre Maneaters in Ogre Kingdoms of WHFB they are part of the Ogres army but they can be hired by other armies. Kroot are part of the Tau Empire, they signed a peace treaty with them and were accepted into the empire by the Tau on the condition they fight for them. The Tau took them in hoping to one day change the eating the dead thing. Kroot mercenaries were exactly that, mercenaries, they are kroot who have left the empire to find their own path. This doesn't stop them going back to the empire when they've seen enough/eaten enough or fulfilled whatever reason they became mercenaries for.

EDIT: Also the Tau consider it an Honour to be given a battlesuit. Why would they bestow that Honour on a lesser class of citizen over their own class of citizen?

I have both my 1st Tau Codex and the current Tau Empire codex. The Kroot were part of the Tau in both. Yes the fluff was re-written but not as much as you are implying.

As to the Battlesuits that they would trade, The Tau fluff still supports such activities, there current trade with the Demi-Urg and the Vespids equipment supports this. This is why Kroot shapers can take a pulse rifle. It is my hope that the next codex really embraces the concept of the Tau trading and rewarding friendly allies with tech and meaningfull gifts. Maybe give an Angkhor Prok equivalent an Honour Blade for some great deed(Kroot shaper with +2 Strength and still the extra CC attack, yes please).

Point I'm making is that the Tau are supposed to be the most Technologically explosive race and with the gains that other races have made (when their tech is supposed to be stagnant) I'd rather embrace the thought of new cutting edge tech as opposed to the same ol same ol.

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:

Talamare wrote:I fully understand the Caste system, but as they use Kroot and Gue'vasa as auxillery troops, nothing in their doctrine prevents them from using captured Space Marines, or creating their own Space Marines for the task

Note, Create their own Space Marines, not genetically enhance their DNA nor interbreed

I can see your point here about creating their own space marines, captured ones are just as likely to fight back as soon as you give them a weapon so I don't think they are as much of a viable option. Creating their own space marines is indeed possible I suppose, but why would they mess with another aliens DNA to make 'super soldiers' and effectively run the risk of those creations turning against them. If they did it with Tau DNA, which I suspect they would probably be more inclined to do, there would probably be political/cultural fall out over the matter. So again I just can't see it happening, if you look at kroot and vespid they actually have access to a very limited amount of Tau technology, which suggest to me they aren't as ready to put aliens in their prized battle suits etc. otherwise you'd see Tau handing them out left, right and centre. This I believe is directly related to the caste system in which those that aren't Tau are second class citizens, citizens none the less, but still of a lower class. This suggests Tau created space marines wouldn't be as well armed as their Imperium counter parts, and would be similarly equipped as kroot or vespid or gue'vasa humans.

If the Tau could somehow brainwash their "space marines" in the same way the Ottoman Turks turned Christian slaves into loyal slave-soldiers, the famed Janissaries. Now it wasn't perfect, but the system did work well for a while until the Janissaries realized (much like the Praetorian Guard in the Roman Empire) they could make or break the Sultan. After that, the Janissaries had things their way until Sultan Mahmud II successfully established a new military arm loyal to him that crushed the Janissaries. (Previous sultans had also tried, but the Janissaries had killed or deposed all previous sultans who had tried it.)

So as this relates to the Tau breeding super soldiers from captured space marines or gene-seed. If they had several safeties, first brain-washing, then inferior equipment (perhaps with a back door for computerized equipment to shut it down, the passcode being in a Tau Commander's hands), and perhaps an implant in the soldier to kill him (again the code being in the Tau Commander's control), the Tau might start a breeding program if it made economic and military sense.

Now my knowledge of Tau fluff is sparse, so I don't really know if they'd have the political will to start a super soldier program. Since this discussion interests me I wanted to mention the Janissary system as a possible option for the Tau, in the hopes the information would be of use to those more knowledgable.

By the way, those Tau players who are planning on using gue'vasa under the allies rules, I applaud you. That part of the fluff I have read, and I thought it would be neat to convert some IG figures with Tau equipment if I played Tau. However, I've just started playing Necrons, so I'm hardly going to start an another army now. Oh, and even though I have Blood Angels, I won't be doing the whole "brofist" with my Necrons any time soon.

@Ancestral Hammer- I too like the Gue'vesa fluff and it irks me alittle that the Tau ended up as Battle brothers to the SM and not the IG in some way.

As to super soldier breeding?....The Tau fluff says that the Tau are already engaged in such on a very basic/non-intrusive scale with their caste system controlled breeding program.

Because of this my deathwatch who use codex marines are going to be allies for my small almost pathetic excuse of a tau army... yes Ordos Xenos allied with Xenos... thank you games workshop lol

OMG there is no change to fluff. "Brothers in arms" is just a term used to show that a IC form one army can join a unit from another and share some rules.

everyone is crying "WOLF" when really there is none to be found (replace "WOLF" with "OMG SM and Tau are battle brothers, GW must have changed the fluff bla bla bla").