6th ed and Blood Angels

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**Stoffer**

I'm thinking of ditching the priests all together. FNP and FC aren't going to be worth the 75points pr priest.

I'm instead going for Astorath (for the 50% red thirst chance) and probably using my elite slots for furioso libbies. Troops I'm thinking a core of DC and DC dreads.

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Andilus Greatsword wrote:Well remember that you still need units to capture objectives, unless you're going for a tabling list.

I've been using scouts on my lists so far, I think they'll stay.

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Also, fast vindicators since their guns do full strength now.

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Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Flavius Infernus wrote:Meph's ability to charge in and kill large units is going to be nerfed by the fact that, as a single-model character unit, he can't refuse challenges. So on the turn he charges, the squad sergeant or whatever is going to step up and die, holding him to only winning combat by 1 wound (2 wounds, I guess, versus nobs).

Yeah I noticed that one too, just get a squad to slow him down and make the sergeant/IC commit suicide and/or wound him a few times.

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Zachilles wrote:I think the Stormlord is going to be a valuable Ally (and before people say anything I've read the actual allies section in the book over and over looking for it and there is nothing saying you cant ally with special chars).

Yeah but he's a Desperate Ally, so 1/6 turns he'll be doing nothing at all.

I just picked up the rulebook so I haven't had time to go through it yet, but there might be potential for meph as a pure caster if you switch his abilities with the new ones?

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DoA are dead:

You can only reserve half your army
FC does not give the initiative bonus
FnP reduced to 5+ (with a wider range to roll it on to be fair)
Overwatch
Jump packs have to be used EITHER for movement or for charging

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wuestenfux wrote:
Stoffer wrote:DoA are dead:

You can only reserve half your army
FC does not give the initiative bonus
FnP reduced to 5+ (with a wider range to roll it on to be fair)
Overwatch
Jump packs have to be used EITHER for movement or for charging

A pure DoA is possibly not as effective as it was when it comes from reserve.
But now I'd be inclined to combine a DoA force (Sanginuary Guard, Vanguard) with a ground force containing heavy tanks like Vindicators (awesome with the new template rule).

Yeah, right now I'm thinking of looking at something like:

No more priests. The bonuses aren't worth it at 75 points a piece.

Libby dreads in place of priests
2 units of DC with astorath and possibly lemartes
Scouts to hold
Vindicators to support

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I think the approach has to be DC without jump packs. Without jump packs they're probably the best non-scoring troop across a lot of codexes, but with jump packs they'll end up being priced like terminators with a 3+ save. I'm thinking DC in stormravens right now.

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6th is a deeply objective based game, death stars are not the greatest idea if you want to win games. If you run them in smaller squads like 10s, you'd probably be better off.

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Titan Atlas wrote:Yeah, I'm thinking 10, maybe 12 at the most, and not all over the board, but they can take care of the nastiest threats. I mean, somebody might field one single deathstar in an objectives game, and I can take it out with the DC and send them after other stuff provided they get the charge.

Yep. The other thing to consider is that some scenarios cater to specific FOC slots, so going with a single type of unit just won't work. I'd suggest maybe two squads of DC supported by something else. Fast attack and heavy support are going to be valuable too.

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thunderlips wrote:talons are no longer chewing termies i know. i refer to the old days and my lucky rolling.

as for the 30, 60 man units. they were just examples. what i'm trying to say is even though san guard are now much better. for the cost to buy dante and a couple of units you could buy DC equivelant which is far better at it's job. with guard your talking one guard armys shooting at one unit. plus they've got to make silly rolls with lasguns first.

the above are really just examples of running DC heavy without astorath. the fact that he's now better, still doesn't make me think he's worth taking over other stuff. The only time i would run him is for the other benefits allowing me red thirst easier and to squad the dc only. A strike force needs to take all comers. 2 fists in a unit of 10 DC allow reroll to hit against vehicles. with a possible 8 glances your landraider or whatever is gone. on a troop unit it's killing them hands down. and thats only 10 troops.

it's the best assault unit we have. 10 DC compared to a unit of similar cost termies. claw, hammer whatever. termies wont win even with saves. Termies are tougher yes but thats not what i'm saying. to win you first have to kill stuff and nothing does it quiet like DC.

For the last year i've run DC in my list at various things. Blob necron warriors, lysander and his termie unit, mordrak and ghost knights, fateweaver and daemon's, marines, loads of things. Very very very rarely have they not destroyed things. The volume of assaulting dice with re-rolls is ridiculous and there's a combination of weapon loadouts to beat anything. I'm not saying there unbeatable don't get me wrong but you'd have to spend silly points in return.

At the end of the day it's what you do with them. sit there you'll die. drop pod, stormraven, razorback, rhino or landraider. get them in combat they will perform everytime.

Astorath is huge for the 1-3 red thirst though. If you're running a list with a lot of infantry (Devs, scouts and/or assault marines) he might be worth it purely for the 50/50 chance of FnP. I don't like FNP much for assaulting units after it was nerfed, but if I have 3 dev squads with FnP they become a bitch to dig out. Bikes, dreads, you name it, red thirst is valuable.

Edit: You can basically math your way out of it. If you have something like 7 infantry units with red thirst, Astorath becomes worth if in place of priests.

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J Mac wrote:
Stoffer wrote:
Astorath is huge for the 1-3 red thirst though. If you're running a list with a lot of infantry (Devs, scouts and/or assault marines) he might be worth it purely for the 50/50 chance of FnP. I don't like FNP much for assaulting units after it was nerfed, but if I have 3 dev squads with FnP they become a bitch to dig out. Bikes, dreads, you name it, red thirst is valuable.

Red Thirst grants FC and Fearless, not FNP. Taking Astorath for fearless though is pretty valuable alone. Still, not enough IMO to take him to the field. I'd rather field Epistolary Librarians on bikes.

Ah yeah, you're right of course.

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Also multiple objectives. That kills deathstars more than anything and forces you to be more balanced. It's pretty awesome, GW did well on the new book.

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Looks awful: http://www.miniwargaming.com/content/40k-6th-edition-batrep-shoota-boyz-vs-assault-marines-part-13

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Played a few games today!

Stuff that didn't work:

Overwatch is a killer. It's awful to charge against and can be super punishing.

Hammer is fairly useless as it's only models in base. I typically get 3-5 models in base, so it never actually does much (I lost more troops to overwatch than I killed with Hammer)

FnP worked fairly well in close combat (it basically gives you a built in save against special kit characters) but the nerf is brutal playing against something like a Necron or GK list in the shooting phase.

BA doesn't have a lot of invuln saves which is super detrimental to challenges. Most of the time you get challenged, you get challenged by a character with power weapons, which means you're screwed. Libbies, power weapon sergeants etc are hosed. That basically forces priests back into the mix for FnP.

Stuff that worked:

I have a few Vindicators lying around and they were awesome. They pretty much blew stuff off the table every turn. Full strength on vehicles is an absolute monster. Added to this, most coversaves are downgraded to 5s these days, which wrecks stuff.

I'm not a big fan of the new movement rules but the upside is choice. Having different solutions for different situations is always nice, even if both of those solutions are slightly flawed.

Reserves with re-rolls means you come in quick. Really quick.

Multiple objectives are awesome for mobile armies. I took first blood in all my games and points for being inside the opponents deployment zone when the game ends is fairly automatic if you're deepstriking and causing havoc.

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Yes, Corbulo owns now. I'd put him with a squad of terminators.

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I've been playing snipers as an objective holder in both 5th and 6th so far.

The main issue with snipers is that you need 10 of them to really produce anything and even then their offensive capability is slightly irrelevant.

On the flipside the ability to place your 6s is incredible. First round of shooting, rolled 2 6s to hit. Put them both on a powerfist sargeant. Rolled a 4 and a 6. Failed the coversave and the fist was gone.

Feels good man

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Has anyone played around with Captains running with assault squads yet?

My biggest issue the last few games have been challenges. I'm usually running Librarians, Priests and powerfist sargeants with the squads. The issue I ran into was that none of those have invuln saves and the sargeant strikes last with the PF. My opponents basically just chewed through the characters in the squad and then mopped up the rest. Swapping the libbies out for captains (possibly with powerclaws?) means you have invuln saves, high WS, still get feel no pain, a good amount of attacks and a number of wounds that will make you survive.

Since priests only count for one third of the elite slot, you could fill the libby void with furioso libbies.

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Zid wrote:I think pfs will be relegated to cowardly guys who hide round 1. Pws are the new awesome. Either way, tho, well get trumped by de wyches with agonizers

Thing is though, even with the power weapon, you still don't have much in terms of save or initiative. Captain is actually I5, 3W and with a built in 4+ invul. He's a pretty damn good challenge candidate at 100 points.

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TheLionOfTheForest wrote:The key here is to pick your battles. Also it was said before that corbulo should be worth a try. Maybe include multiple characters into a squad about to engage in hand to hand, have one toon ready to accept all challenges, maybe a chaplain?

Corbulo is worth it, but for completely different reasons. I wouldn't bring him to fend off challenges, but I'd certainly put him in a terminator squad to pass around wounds and use his 2+FNP when needed.

I need to try this Captain thing, it could be fairly lethal.

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Mordechai wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/460778.page

I'll be trying this list in a couple days. Fighting the Daemons taught me a few things I need to do differently.

I'm not sure Tycho is worth it over a regular Captain. The more I look at what you get at the point cost the more I think he'll work.

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Mordechai wrote:I chose Tycho over the standard Captain because of the 2+ save and the attack that ignores armor better than a power weapon captain. I'm paying 50 points for a 2+ save and a better than power weapon attack. Also his LD buff for my entire army.

Yeah. I guess it's apples and oranges as you're playing a foot army and mine is jump packs (which Tycho doesn't really fit into). He's a good choice for a walking army. I'd put Corbulo in any list that's walking too to be honest.

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Anyway, here are my revised jumper lists, or at least early suggestions:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/460851.page#4503367

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Red Comet wrote:I don't think Powerfists will be bad. Its still necessary IMO to have Powerfists to deal with Terminators. Powerfists are good and as Blood Angels we can easily upgrade our Sanguinary Priests to have Lightning Claws now (Power Weapons aren't as good as LC's). Sanguinary Priests with upgrades doesn't sound so bad now. It was too easy to single him out and unless we give him protection in either an offensive or defensive form we will have Powerfist sgt's who aren't striking in combat (which sucks).

I don't think they're bad as such, I think they're bad in a scenario where you have no one to cover the challenge for him. If you're running a single assault squad with a powerfist, then it's bad. If you're running an assault squad with a powerfist and a Priest/Libby/Chaplain/Libby/whatever kitted out to take care of challenges, you'll be fine.

Edit: deleted the thunderhammer comment. It's the model that strikes at I1 if hit, not the unit :(

**Stoffer**

Yep, Tycho for footslogging armies, captains for jump pack ones.

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cerebaton wrote:Why a Captain over a Reclusiarch? You get the 4++ either way and Liturgies of Blood is worth the extra point imo.

The idea for the jumper list would be to use the Captain as insulation for challenges. He has higher WS and better upgrade options while being 30 points cheaper. Not being able to switch his Crozius for a better hand to hand weapon sucks if you're doing challenges. That said, Fearless/Liturgies of blood is a wonderful combo.

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Titan Atlas wrote:Exactly! There's always the option. Him not being in the fight isn't the worst thing in the world, and if you have him with DC and the enemy tries to pull that, even without the Chaplain's help the DC can mulch the enemy with relative ease.

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Mind you they still get his bonus.

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So that's good

I disagree, you're basically wasting a 100 points+ model while the opponent still gets to use his. Your Chaplain not getting his attacks while his does can decide the combat.

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Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:
cerebaton wrote:Cool - that makes sense. What would you arm him with in an anti-challenge capacity?

I haven't thought about it too much, but how about a pair of LCs? It is at least a good place to start the discussion. One LC might be enough. To fit the profile we have described in the thread, you still need to add the jump pack.

LCs are definately the "best" option but also probably the most pricey.

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Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:
Jackster wrote: The Captain is just a beatstick and as far as the world of beatstick goes he is rather mediocre.

There is some wisdom in that statement. If we take him, we are choosing to move away from the other HQ choices in order to gear him up for challenges. However, he is still only I 5. Lots of things are going to go before him. I like the sound of the LC/SS idea. But at that point we begin moving into points range for buying Terminator armor, at which point he can't move with the jump infantry. If we are going to spend that many points on him, I wonder if jumping to one of the special characters doesn't become a more attractive choice: Dante, Astorath, Meph, or Sanguinor (I know the last two can't join units. So, you alter your strategy a bit).

Uuuuh I disagree. For a beatstick, he's the best thing the codex offers at the 100-140/150 point range and with furious charge nerfed, I5 is super good. I don't really agree that a lot of things are going before him, certainly not things in his point range unless they come from codexes that are specifically geared to strike first.

If you're doing jump infantry, he's about the best beatstick you'll get. If you're doing walking/terminator, you might want to look elsewhere.

Also, those special characters you mention are arguably better, but that's because they're twice as expensive, which makes the comparison slightly flawed.

**Stoffer**

I'm not entirely sure. They're not great in 6th though :(

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Yeah, I think Tycho wins it for me, Seth not having a power weapon is pretty poor for a character of that cost.

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Titan Atlas wrote:Excited to read it, friend!

Yep! Give us the list and battle report

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Quick question about red thirst:

The FAQ says an independent character that has succumbed to the red thirst cannot join a non red thirst unit. That's really only relevant once the game is underway right? If an IC is deployed with a unit, they still do the red thirst roll with a single dice right?

For example:

My librarian is deployed with a squad of assault marines. I roll a 1 on the dice and BOTH the libby and assault squad are treated as having red thirst since they're a unit at the time I roll the dice.

Later in the game, the libby splits from the squad but cannot join my other assault squad due to it not having the red thirst.

It wasn't changed so those units roll them separately initially right?