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The old penetrating table had 5 being wrecked and 6 being explodes
the new pen table has only 6 being explodes.

old stype ap2 weapons go +0 and ap1 got +1
new styel ap2 get +1 and ap1 get +2

so basically a lascannon has the same chance it did in 5th to destroy a rhino in one shot
a melta gun also has the same chance to destroy a rhino in one shot.

Autocannons and missile launchers now have 1/2 the chance to destroy a vehicle in one shot, but can now glance things to death.

Exergy wrote:The old penetrating table had 5 being wrecked and 6 being explodes
the new pen table has only 6 being explodes.

old stype ap2 weapons go +0 and ap1 got +1
new styel ap2 get +1 and ap1 get +2

so basically a lascannon has the same chance it did in 5th to destroy a rhino in one shot
a melta gun also has the same chance to destroy a rhino in one shot.

Autocannons and missile launchers now have 1/2 the chance to destroy a vehicle in one shot, but can now glance things to death.

Without adjusting point cost. Thank God! The point cost of lascannons was too high for their effect and in the case of long fangs, missile launchers were too cheap to have the same chance as lascannons to do anything.

It also sounds like the effect of glances may balance out the lost instant kill capability of the "cheaper" ML and AC.

AC are still awesome. You just need to glance, and they have the shots to do it multiple times.

Omegus wrote:AC are still awesome. You just need to glance, and they have the shots to do it multiple times.

agreed but no one seems to be talking about this. Your chances to make something die NOW NOW are going down while firing enough stuff at it and it will auto die.

Didn't know this. Hm, makes me feel a little better about giving half of my Long Fangs Lascannons as oppose to Missile Launchers. Still, Missile Launchers are just as effective at taking out hordes of troops, plus they still aren't bad for vehicles.

Exergy wrote:

Omegus wrote:AC are still awesome. You just need to glance, and they have the shots to do it multiple times.

agreed but no one seems to be talking about this. Your chances to make something die NOW NOW are going down while firing enough stuff at it and it will auto die.

It's because people are stupid, panicky animals. Nerds especially so.

MATH_HAMMER: (Assuming BS3 Space Marines shooting at an armor 12 target)

Question #1: What are the odds of destroying (explodes result) a vehicle with one round of shooting?

Lascannon : (66% chance to hit)*(50% chance to penetrate)*(33% chance to explode) = 11% chance to explode (1 chance in 9)

Autocannon: 2*(66% chance to hit)*(16% chance to penetrate)*(16% chance to explode) = 3.6% chance to explode (1 chance in 24)

Question #2: What are the chances of removing no hull points / one hull point / two hull points ?

Lascannon : (66% chance to hit)*(66% to pen or glance ) Gives us
56% chance to remove no hull points (5 out of 9) / 44% chance to remove 1 hull point (4 out of 9) / 0% chance to remove 2 hull points

Autocannon: each shot has (66% chance to hit)*(33% chance to pen or glance) = 11% chance for each shot (of 2) to remove a hull point
Given a binomial distribution with 2 trials, you have
79% chance to remove no hull points / 19.75% chance to remove 1 hull point / 1.24% chance to remove 2 hull points

I'd say the one shot lascannon is still way better. But you might do the math for an Assault Cannon vs. Lascannon at an Armor 11 Rhino. I think the assault cannon would probably come up on top on that one.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also...the odds change signifigantly if your lascannon or autocannon are twin linked.

Rampage wrote:Didn't know this. Hm, makes me feel a little better about giving half of my Long Fangs Lascannons as oppose to Missile Launchers. Still, Missile Launchers are just as effective at taking out hordes of troops, plus they still aren't bad for vehicles.

but now with the power weapon nerf you have to think about having anti TEQ weaponry. Plasma has its place but a few lascannon pot shots can be nice.

Demolishers, Medusas, Melta/Plasma Vets, Demo Charges

never underestimate the power of a 30 man blobsquad either.... 90 shots at 12 inches will put 4.95 wounds on terminators

This was something a guy at my club typed up. From what i was able to gather from his math, he noticed that ML's are taking a bit of a nerf, but they're still way more effective than in 5th. There was a lot of cool info in it. (not trying to plug them or anything, it's just way too big to copy paste into a single post, so if you're interested check it out.)

http://therustyscabbard.blogspot.com/2012/06/preliminary-thoughts-math-on-vehicles.html

The most interesting thing I noticed was when he mentionedthat multilasers, autocannons, and scatter lasers all beat out the missle launcher at light armor killing. The autocannon even ties ML's against AV 13 according to his math.

@MrMoustafa :

I read your friends post and I question his results. I won't say they are wrong because I haven't done the calculations for myself (yet). But judging by his use of language (e.g. 9 shots from a ML guarantees a wreck), I feel confident that he is not a statistician. I am though, and I plan on checking some of his conclusions.

Don't get me wrong - most of what he says seems reasonable. It's just that some of his conclusions seem disturbingly un-scientific. I'll post my results when I have them.

Grugknuckle wrote:MATH_HAMMER: (Assuming BS3 Space Marines shooting at an armor 12 target)

Question #1: What are the odds of destroying (explodes result) a vehicle with one round of shooting?

Lascannon : (66% chance to hit)*(50% chance to penetrate)*(33% chance to explode) = 11% chance to explode (1 chance in 9)

Autocannon: 2*(66% chance to hit)*(16% chance to penetrate)*(16% chance to explode) = 3.6% chance to explode (1 chance in 24)

Question #2: What are the chances of removing no hull points / one hull point / two hull points ?

Lascannon : (66% chance to hit)*(66% to pen or glance ) Gives us
56% chance to remove no hull points (5 out of 9) / 44% chance to remove 1 hull point (4 out of 9) / 0% chance to remove 2 hull points

Autocannon: each shot has (66% chance to hit)*(33% chance to pen or glance) = 11% chance for each shot (of 2) to remove a hull point
Given a binomial distribution with 2 trials, you have
79% chance to remove no hull points / 19.75% chance to remove 1 hull point / 1.24% chance to remove 2 hull points

Shouldn't the Autocannon have a 16% chance to pen or glance not 33% in the 2nd question
Unless you are combining both shots into a single equation which would mean each individual shot would have half of the % of your answers, correct?

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:

Grugknuckle wrote:MATH_HAMMER: (Assuming BS3 Space Marines shooting at an armor 12 target)

Question #1: What are the odds of destroying (explodes result) a vehicle with one round of shooting?

Lascannon : (66% chance to hit)*(50% chance to penetrate)*(33% chance to explode) = 11% chance to explode (1 chance in 9)

Autocannon: 2*(66% chance to hit)*(16% chance to penetrate)*(16% chance to explode) = 3.6% chance to explode (1 chance in 24)

Question #2: What are the chances of removing no hull points / one hull point / two hull points ?

Lascannon : (66% chance to hit)*(66% to pen or glance ) Gives us
56% chance to remove no hull points (5 out of 9) / 44% chance to remove 1 hull point (4 out of 9) / 0% chance to remove 2 hull points

Autocannon: each shot has (66% chance to hit)*(33% chance to pen or glance) = 11% chance for each shot (of 2) to remove a hull point
Given a binomial distribution with 2 trials, you have
79% chance to remove no hull points / 19.75% chance to remove 1 hull point / 1.24% chance to remove 2 hull points

Shouldn't the Autocannon have a 16% chance to pen or glance not 33% in the 2nd question
Unless you are combining both shots into a single equation which would mean each individual shot would have half of the % of your answers, correct?

AARRGH!!! MATHS IN ACTION!!

But anyway. An auto cannon may be better over all for vehicles, maybe, maths withstanding... But Missiles launchers can be better vs MeQs (AP3 Insta death) and hordes (blast generally better than 2 shots.) Of course, when shooting, say, an IG command squad, the cannon can inflict insta death, but thats getting rather specific

Von Chogg

with the buffs to vehiciles, riflemen pattern dreads and even the psybolt version got a ton better. now you have a vehicle thats harder to kill pouring out the same amount of shots as before. granted its harder to kill vehicles, but sometimes stunning or shaking that vehicle is just as good. generally as long as its not shooting at me, i call it a sucsessful damage result

DarthSpader wrote:with the buffs to vehiciles, riflemen pattern dreads and even the psybolt version got a ton better. now you have a vehicle thats harder to kill pouring out the same amount of shots as before. granted its harder to kill vehicles, but sometimes stunning or shaking that vehicle is just as good. generally as long as its not shooting at me, i call it a sucsessful damage result

sarcasm?

vehicles took a big hit in surviability in 6th. Glances no longer cause any damage results so suppression is no longer a valid tactic.

Glances are a seemingly easier way to kill a vehicle now anyway. Most vehicles will have about 3HP, three glances one kill. Where as those pens can kill it, but the result is still randomly determined on a table. You can skew it with AP2 and 1, but for the weaker AP levels a glance is likely the better goal. Something like a Melta would be looking at a 3 or 4+ with the bonus AP1 gets, if I'm remembering the table correctly. Krak missiles however still get no bonus.

More or less vehicles are slightly weaker and the role of anti-tank weaponry remains much the same, however some of the tools will be aiming at different targets than before. AP1 and 2 I would not waste on a light transport like a Rhino for example unless there was no other option. S4 would see more action against armour 10 as well as the chance of a glance seems more desirable now.

Shouldn't the Autocannon have a 16% chance to pen or glance not 33% in the 2nd question
Unless you are combining both shots into a single equation which would mean each individual shot would have half of the % of your answers, correct?

An autocannon is S7. Against 12 armor it needs a 5 to glance 6 to pen. Therefore, there are 2 ways to pen or glance out of 6 possible outcomes.

2/6 = 1/3 = 33%

Exergy wrote:

Rampage wrote:Didn't know this. Hm, makes me feel a little better about giving half of my Long Fangs Lascannons as oppose to Missile Launchers. Still, Missile Launchers are just as effective at taking out hordes of troops, plus they still aren't bad for vehicles.

but now with the power weapon nerf you have to think about having anti TEQ weaponry. Plasma has its place but a few lascannon pot shots can be nice.

Which is why I gave Melta to my Grey Hunters and a decent amount of Lascannons to my Long Fangs, as at the time I was worried about Paladins.

n0t_u wrote:Glances are a seemingly easier way to kill a vehicle now anyway. Most vehicles will have about 3HP, three glances one kill. Where as those pens can kill it, but the result is still randomly determined on a table. You can skew it with AP2 and 1, but for the weaker AP levels a glance is likely the better goal. Something like a Melta would be looking at a 3 or 4+ with the bonus AP1 gets, if I'm remembering the table correctly. Krak missiles however still get no bonus.

More or less vehicles are slightly weaker and the role of anti-tank weaponry remains much the same, however some of the tools will be aiming at different targets than before. AP1 and 2 I would not waste on a light transport like a Rhino for example unless there was no other option. S4 would see more action against armour 10 as well as the chance of a glance seems more desirable now.

the new damage chart is a 1/6 chance of destroying the vehicle. melta is +2 so 4+ or 50%, just like they always were
las cannons are +1 so 5+ to destroy or 33% of the time. Just like they always were
krak gets no bonus so now needs a 6. half the chance to insta pop a vehicle.