Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yesterday I had the pleasure of watching a matchup between Necrons and Daemons, with the Daemons player using a monster-heavy list.

Holy gak.

The list was 3 flying Tzeentch Princes (which count as flyers) and Fateweaver hanging out with a Bloodthirster. He pretty much spent the entire game flying around being hit on a 6 and shooting Bolt/Gaze at everything while the Bloodthirster was virtually unkillable due to Fateweaver and him only coming to the ground to charge something.

I'm forseeing something like this being the new Daemon power army.

Fateweaver
Lord of Change, We are Legion, Master of Sorcery, Boon of Mutation (this was pretty useful from what I saw)

Daemon Prince, Iron Hide, Wings, MoT, Bolt, Gaze
Daemon Prince, Iron Hide, Wings, MoT, Bolt, Gaze
Daemon Prince, Iron Hide, Wings, MoT, Bolt, Gaze

With Plaguebearers as Troops to sort out objectives.

Basically you run all the Daemons in a ball together in flight mode, being hit on a 6 from everything and shooting down anything that has Skyfire first, then spending the rest of the game shooting everything down and only charging things when you really have to. Rerolling all your saves and being hit on a 6 is going to make them reaaaaaally hard to kill for most people. Add that and you can just Vector Strike over things and keep going.

With very few things that actually have Skyfire right now, really the only weakness of the army is trying to get all of your Daemons to DS into one place at once.

Yeah I just played a game using this list. I table him turn 4, its pretty nasty. I used a more assualt approach though, but plan to do shooting. It is pretty much unstoppable, I am considering using winds of chaos and vector strike and just flamer everything to death. A Lord of Change may be a better choice for the second Hqs, but i found the bloodthrister really nasty. Also, just deepstrike way back in a safe area, arrive in swooping flight, and then just run 2d6 all together then start killing everything.

Overall, this is the list to run in my opinion. Its a total of about 1100-1250 points for all the MCs. Please expand on this list, I think it can be unbeatable.

Thanks.

So... 6th ed. 40k daemons just became 7th ed. WHFB daemons...oops GW.

I feel like the rules at Games Workshop are being written by an 11 year old.

Mike712 wrote:So... 6th ed. 40k daemons just became 7th ed. WHFB daemons...oops GW.

Made me laugh. 2012 is the year of chaos after all!

I've been playing Chaos Daemons since they became a sepaate codex-I'm old school rocking daemons. I'm happy they got a buff like this. Daemons don't need anything else-thanks GW-they're perfectly fine now.

I reccomend to get breath instead of gaze I guess, breath is gonig to be nasty paired with the cricus of vector strike MCs.... haha

Yarp, breath is the way to go.

Unfortunately the Tzeentch daemon's Vector Strikes aren't particularly powerful.

Having played the list twice now (I used a Lord of Change instead of Bloodthirster), I feel like you basically win if you get your preferred wave and DS vaguely well. You can also run 2d6 the turn you show up if your DSing doesn't go too well. (ie they're spread apart from Fateweaver)

You can take a skyshield landing pad to make all your MC's drop in formation. The only downside is that they'll have to drop on the landing pad, which I believe (not sure) has to be in your deployment zone.

Any Fortifications must be depolyed in your half of the table. Not just your deployment zone.

Mike712 wrote:So... 6th ed. 40k daemons just became 7th ed. WHFB daemons...oops GW.

How so? CD just became viable at least, I wouldn't call them broken just yet.

Naturally the problem with this list is going to be the troop choices. I also cannot see the Vector Striking Daemons doing enough damage on their own to table an opponent.

Remember that Tzeetch Prince clocks in at somewhere around 250 points a pop and is only S5. Further, I think vector strike counts as a shooting attack, so you might wan to put Master of Sorcery on them to fire both weapons which adds more to the cost.

Daemons were a strong army in the hands of a competent general before - with some luck playing in but not as much as most people think.

Man, this is far from unbeatable. It's a decent build, but IMO it lacks the firepower to really damage some lists without resorting to assault. What happens when you go against a necron flyer list? You can't assault their scythes. You're hitting them on 6's with bolts, and you're going to be bunched up for their tesla destructors. How are you going to fight MSU lists? You won't be able to kill them quick enough with bolts only so you have to resort to assault. The moment you do, you are going to be vulnerable to their shooting/counter-assault. Don't get me wrong....I like flying monstrous creatures and I think they are the way to go if you want to play competitive daemons. However, I don't think a balanced daemon build should rely mainly on them. Throw in some fiends or seekers and now we're talking.

jy2 wrote:Man, this is far from unbeatable. It's a decent build, but IMO it lacks the firepower to really damage some lists without resorting to assault. What happens when you go against a necron flyer list? You can't assault their scythes. You're hitting them on 6's with bolts, and you're going to be bunched up for their tesla destructors. How are you going to fight MSU lists? You won't be able to kill them quick enough with bolts only so you have to resort to assault. The moment you do, you are going to be vulnerable to their shooting/counter-assault. Don't get me wrong....I like flying monstrous creatures and I think they are the way to go if you want to play competitive daemons. However, I don't think a balanced daemon build should rely mainly on them. Throw in some fiends or seekers and now we're talking.

I'm going based purely on information from on here, so bear with me if I make a mistake. Flying Daemons will still be awesome, and as fliers themselves, they should be able to shoot Necron ships at their own BS. If that's wrong, my apologies. Also, for blobs they have the breath of chaos (plus Flamers should be running around nearby too). And being bunched up? So what-the flying circus has a 3++ with re-rolls. The destructors aren't scary. The important thing is to find a balance though-Tzeentch will probably be ruling the roost (pun DEFINITELY intended) but don't forget about the humble (yeah, right) Bloodthirster. He's waving his axe and feeling pretty good about smashing things. I also don't believe a purely Tzeentch list is any good-running ALL LoCs and TDPs is a terrible idea-combat is nerfed. A blend of Khorne and Tzeentch though is scary. Also, a 2++ for Khorne Daemons against GKs (who will be allied into A LOT of imperial lists) are pretty much a must. Just a thought...

I might add that the Lord of Change comes with Soul Devourer standard.

Soul Devourer equips a Daemon with a "Power Weapon."

Lords of Change are modelled with staves, they get a Power Maul which is +2 S and AP 4.

Lords of Change count all their close combat attacks as AP 2 due to Smash.

So Lords of Change are strength 8.

Dont forget about being grounded though.

The test for grounding is triggered on a hit - actually being wounded doesnt matter. Then you get charged by a th/ss that challenges you or get picked off by combined fire.

Andy06r wrote:Dont forget about being grounded though.

The test for grounding is triggered on a hit - actually being wounded doesnt matter. Then you get charged by a th/ss that challenges you or get picked off by combined fire.

Yes, shooting from a lot of units causes a lot of ground test.... if the circus is together anything wounding it will rarely hurt it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nitros14 wrote:I might add that the Lord of Change comes with Soul Devourer standard.

Soul Devourer equips a Daemon with a "Power Weapon."

Lords of Change are modelled with staves, they get a Power Maul which is +2 S and AP 4.

Lords of Change count all their close combat attacks as AP 2 due to Smash.

So Lords of Change are strength 8.

If that is true, the Lord of Change is really nasty, Nitros14 what is your opinion on bloodthrist vs Lord of Change for the circus, and combat princes (so ground test from swooping when they land doesn't really matter) vs shooty princes??

CannedKhorne wrote:

Andy06r wrote:Dont forget about being grounded though.

The test for grounding is triggered on a hit - actually being wounded doesnt matter. Then you get charged by a th/ss that challenges you or get picked off by combined fire.

Yes, shooting from a lot of units causes a lot of ground test.... if the circus is together anything wounding it will rarely hurt it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nitros14 wrote:I might add that the Lord of Change comes with Soul Devourer standard.

Soul Devourer equips a Daemon with a "Power Weapon."

Lords of Change are modelled with staves, they get a Power Maul which is +2 S and AP 4.

Lords of Change count all their close combat attacks as AP 2 due to Smash.

So Lords of Change are strength 8.

If that is true, the Lord of Change is really nasty, Nitros14 what is your opinion on bloodthrist vs Lord of Change for the circus, and combat princes (so ground test from swooping when they land doesn't really matter) vs shooty princes??

Rarely hurting it is far from true.... Maybe while its airborne it will be rough, but once grounded, its played like ol' Fateweaver. Volume of fire has ALWAYS been the way to beat fateweaver, and this is no exception. Only thing is more people will be allocating so many points to MC's that the rest of the list will be weak. And like JY said, it will lack the necessary "oomph" to take on MSU armies, which seem like they will still be pretty abundant even though some of the missions really don't favor em.

CannedKhorne wrote:If that is true, the Lord of Change is really nasty, Nitros14 what is your opinion on bloodthrist vs Lord of Change for the circus, and combat princes (so ground test from swooping when they land doesn't really matter) vs shooty princes??

What makes a combat prince a combat prince? especially if we are talking Tzeentch here.
The only powers that help a DP in combat are from the other gods, like cloud of flies/nurgles rot, +1attack from MoK (and rending if you...really wanted it...), Musk and Aura from Slaanesh, and might as a general power. These are the ones that increase a DP's melee capability.
I think Tzeench shooting powers+the ability to fire twice per turn and the increased invul waaaay more powerful and versatile than +1 attack Khorne provides.
Nurgle and Slaanesh princes are the real "CC princes", Nurgle is tougher and better against more opponents, the slaanesh prince can hit and run which is an excellent ability for such a high initiative monster, it lets the prince escape tarpits, but also jump from one squad to the next leaving another unit to finish off the unit he just broke combat from.

So by going a "CC prince" over a shooty one, you gain hit and run (not sure on new aura rules...) OR extra T and the ability to handle hordes better...
Or you could fly over them and flame and gaze and gift and vector strike them. A Tzeentch prince has the same number of attacks. He's the same weaponskill. Statistically, the Tprince will do as much damage in melee as the Sprince, but the Sprince goes first. Tprince does the same damage statistically as the Nprince when it swings, but then the Nprince gets extra S3 ap- hits on the unit. The Tprince, whilst its the shooty prince...its still a ing daemon prince and it still smashes things apart in melee. You do however get gnarly shooting to go with your vector strikes, flying shenanigans, and a rerollable 4++ around fateweaver.

-edit- Soul devourer is a T power. Other princes can't get it. Why do they hate khorne so much? "You can come to the melee gods side and get +1 attack! Or go to the magic gods side and get +2 Strength, concussive attacks, magical shooting powers, and a better invulnerable save."

I can really see khorne dressed in rags on a streetcorner with a cardboard sign "will bestow blessing for change"

Jihallah wrote:

CannedKhorne wrote:If that is true, the Lord of Change is really nasty, Nitros14 what is your opinion on bloodthrist vs Lord of Change for the circus, and combat princes (so ground test from swooping when they land doesn't really matter) vs shooty princes??

What makes a combat prince a combat prince? especially if we are talking Tzeentch here.
The only powers that help a DP in combat are from the other gods, like cloud of flies/nurgles rot, +1attack from MoK (and rending if you...really wanted it...), Musk and Aura from Slaanesh, and might as a general power. These are the ones that increase a DP's melee capability.
I think Tzeench shooting powers+the ability to fire twice per turn and the increased invul waaaay more powerful and versatile than +1 attack Khorne provides.
Nurgle and Slaanesh princes are the real "CC princes", Nurgle is tougher and better against more opponents, the slaanesh prince can hit and run which is an excellent ability for such a high initiative monster, it lets the prince escape tarpits, but also jump from one squad to the next leaving another unit to finish off the unit he just broke combat from.

So by going a "CC prince" over a shooty one, you gain hit and run (not sure on new aura rules...) OR extra T and the ability to handle hordes better...
Or you could fly over them and flame and gaze and gift and vector strike them. A Tzeentch prince has the same number of attacks. He's the same weaponskill. Statistically, the Tprince will do as much damage in melee as the Sprince, but the Sprince goes first. Tprince does the same damage statistically as the Nprince when it swings, but then the Nprince gets extra S3 ap- hits on the unit. The Tprince, whilst its the shooty prince...its still a ing daemon prince and it still smashes things apart in melee. You do however get gnarly shooting to go with your vector strikes, flying shenanigans, and a rerollable 4++ around fateweaver.

-edit- Soul devourer is a T power. Other princes can't get it. Why do they hate khorne so much? "You can come to the melee gods side and get +1 attack! Or go to the magic gods side and get +2 Strength, concussive attacks, magical shooting powers, and a better invulnerable save."

I can really see khorne dressed in rags on a streetcorner with a cardboard sign "will bestow blessing for change"

Arm your khorne princes with the axe arm and pray that str 7 is enough...?

Jihallah wrote:

CannedKhorne wrote:If that is true, the Lord of Change is really nasty, Nitros14 what is your opinion on bloodthrist vs Lord of Change for the circus, and combat princes (so ground test from swooping when they land doesn't really matter) vs shooty princes??

What makes a combat prince a combat prince? especially if we are talking Tzeentch here.
The only powers that help a DP in combat are from the other gods, like cloud of flies/nurgles rot, +1attack from MoK (and rending if you...really wanted it...), Musk and Aura from Slaanesh, and might as a general power. These are the ones that increase a DP's melee capability.
I think Tzeench shooting powers+the ability to fire twice per turn and the increased invul waaaay more powerful and versatile than +1 attack Khorne provides.
Nurgle and Slaanesh princes are the real "CC princes", Nurgle is tougher and better against more opponents, the slaanesh prince can hit and run which is an excellent ability for such a high initiative monster, it lets the prince escape tarpits, but also jump from one squad to the next leaving another unit to finish off the unit he just broke combat from.

So by going a "CC prince" over a shooty one, you gain hit and run (not sure on new aura rules...) OR extra T and the ability to handle hordes better...
Or you could fly over them and flame and gaze and gift and vector strike them. A Tzeentch prince has the same number of attacks. He's the same weaponskill. Statistically, the Tprince will do as much damage in melee as the Sprince, but the Sprince goes first. Tprince does the same damage statistically as the Nprince when it swings, but then the Nprince gets extra S3 ap- hits on the unit. The Tprince, whilst its the shooty prince...its still a ing daemon prince and it still smashes things apart in melee. You do however get gnarly shooting to go with your vector strikes, flying shenanigans, and a rerollable 4++ around fateweaver.

-edit- Soul devourer is a T power. Other princes can't get it. Why do they hate khorne so much? "You can come to the melee gods side and get +1 attack! Or go to the magic gods side and get +2 Strength, concussive attacks, magical shooting powers, and a better invulnerable save."

I can really see khorne dressed in rags on a streetcorner with a cardboard sign "will bestow blessing for change"

What do you guys think is the most effective way to run tzeetch deamon princes.... its tough for me because I have never ran them before, and they are REALLY expensive points wise with too many upgrades.

Gaze, breath, wings, MOT, Soul Devourer....

CannedKhorne wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

CannedKhorne wrote:If that is true, the Lord of Change is really nasty, Nitros14 what is your opinion on bloodthrist vs Lord of Change for the circus, and combat princes (so ground test from swooping when they land doesn't really matter) vs shooty princes??

What makes a combat prince a combat prince? especially if we are talking Tzeentch here.
The only powers that help a DP in combat are from the other gods, like cloud of flies/nurgles rot, +1attack from MoK (and rending if you...really wanted it...), Musk and Aura from Slaanesh, and might as a general power. These are the ones that increase a DP's melee capability.
I think Tzeench shooting powers+the ability to fire twice per turn and the increased invul waaaay more powerful and versatile than +1 attack Khorne provides.
Nurgle and Slaanesh princes are the real "CC princes", Nurgle is tougher and better against more opponents, the slaanesh prince can hit and run which is an excellent ability for such a high initiative monster, it lets the prince escape tarpits, but also jump from one squad to the next leaving another unit to finish off the unit he just broke combat from.

So by going a "CC prince" over a shooty one, you gain hit and run (not sure on new aura rules...) OR extra T and the ability to handle hordes better...
Or you could fly over them and flame and gaze and gift and vector strike them. A Tzeentch prince has the same number of attacks. He's the same weaponskill. Statistically, the Tprince will do as much damage in melee as the Sprince, but the Sprince goes first. Tprince does the same damage statistically as the Nprince when it swings, but then the Nprince gets extra S3 ap- hits on the unit. The Tprince, whilst its the shooty prince...its still a ing daemon prince and it still smashes things apart in melee. You do however get gnarly shooting to go with your vector strikes, flying shenanigans, and a rerollable 4++ around fateweaver.

-edit- Soul devourer is a T power. Other princes can't get it. Why do they hate khorne so much? "You can come to the melee gods side and get +1 attack! Or go to the magic gods side and get +2 Strength, concussive attacks, magical shooting powers, and a better invulnerable save."

I can really see khorne dressed in rags on a streetcorner with a cardboard sign "will bestow blessing for change"

What do you guys think is the most effective way to run tzeetch deamon princes.... its tough for me because I have never ran them before, and they are REALLY expensive points wise with too many upgrades.

Gaze, breath, wings, MOT, Soul Devourer....

Not quite sure TBH. I'm still a fan of wings, MOT, and bolt. Still 200 pts, but simple and effective

I'm not sure about people claiming the LOC gets +2 strength but still hitting at AP2. I won't be using that rule myself, it smells wrong.
I also agree with Zid, Demon Prince with Wings+MOT+BOT for 200 points.
Thing is, I asked in another thread (and got linked here for some reason) if there was any reason not to opt for a Lord of Change instead, for 3++, +1S +1T for about 20 points more than a deamon prince with the same stats.
I also think people are over-estimating flying deamons' effectiveness. I've only played a couple of battles with the new rules, but let me tell you they WILL drop. If they get rapid fired by 10 dudes, they'll take 3.3 hits, 1.1 failed save and bam they're on the ground. This isn't nesssarily bad though, youjust need to make sure you're far enough away so that if you DO go down, you're not going to charged by something threatening in CC. For this reason, breath is a waste IMO. Being close enough to use it means you're close enough to be assaulted.

I think for me, overall changes gonna probably be a variation of this since I've run fateweaver blocks for the last 6 months and already have 3 DP's with wings modeled.

Crushers porbably gonna get replaced by a prince but I'll probably keep my fiends. I'll prob drop my seekers for another prince as I've always had just awful luck with them. I'm still debating if screamers will go too.

Biggest problem though is I love my twin tzeentch heralds, and going to a LoC or thirster is going to be somewhat difficult transition though sounds fun. I'm not even afraid of getting my herald into CC before as I still had fast seekers and more importantly fiends to bail them out. They just have to be survivable and even with just a 4++ and crappy ws2, they have survived most things trying for them in assault.

What mess me up the most though I think is that crushers are such a great fire magnet, I'll miss them but more importantly, the changeling will not be able to keep up to help divert fire due to zoom movements and he's just infantry.

I am looking forward to trying a similar flying list, but I suspect a good player will do the following:

1. Shoot at one MC with weak weapons. You do not have to hurt it, just hit it. Wait until it hits the ground. (Hope the S9 hit wounds). Basically, save your high strength weapons until you ground the thing.
2. Focus fire on the ground until dead.
3. Rinse and repeat.

I could see dark eldar causing problems with this list very quickly simply based on the volume of fire.

So what is the benefit of a Tzeetch DP Soul Devourer, it would be nice if they got +2 str AP2 and attack at I5, Power Maul....

Also, have you guys considered a combat prince for 190 points with just wings unholy might and iron hide?

It's not confirmed that your DP *can* use the maul for +2 strength. Just saying.

Yes, I agree.

I'll tell you what, a list similar to this ripped apart my Ultramarines. Four flying MC's spraying AP2 templates and refusing to die was heartbreaking to watch as they toasted TAC Squads and TAC Terminators at will. Killing 1 took a ton of shooting/lucky CC and even then you had 3 more to deal with... Next time I'll be bringing my new Stormtalon gunship to blast some annoying fliers of my back until flakk missile become available.

About everyone claiming that Lord of Change can use power Mauls, the rule book clearly states that power weapons with special rules are AP 3 at your own strength (same as if it were a sword). Soul Devourer has that special rule of eating souls attached to it, so it cant get +2 strength.

Otherwise I love this list. I'm planning on pairing it with Thousand Sons for fluff reasons and to hold my landing pad and objectives. Without allies, the enemy can infiltrate into our landing pad. I also want to advise against too many points into our flying beasts. If the opponent has only a few ground targets to choose from, they can probably wipe them out and we wont be able to hold objectives. That's why having bulky ground troops are an important component, 1ksons or plague on the objectives and our daemons in the skys!