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There's a bit in the book where



My question then is



What are your thoughts?

kitch102 wrote:What are your thoughts?

That Deliverance Lost is a lousy novel.

Presumably, the fluffy reason is that he had to watch over ze Golden Throne/webway gate after Magnus' shenanigans. Like at the siege of Terra, he couldn't leave it without having Malcador try to maintain the Throne/Gate.

More realistically, its also because BL wouldn't want that to happen as its far too convenient and cliche IMHO, as well as completely messing with the HH story. Not forgetting some hints that the Big E predicted or wanted the Horus Heresy.

Either way, I think its a bit of a passing mention best ignored.

kitch102 wrote:There's a bit in the book where

Spoiler:

the emperor says to corax that the secret weapon will allow him to raise a new army of space marines, bringing the raven guard back up to fighting strength. He goes on to say that it is also the key to the destruction of the marines, as though he can kill them all at the push of a button.

My question then is

Spoiler:

why, when horus and his crew of miscreants turned against the emperor, did he not just push the button and start with a fresh slate? He'd have killed the loyal marines too, but saved countless of billions of guard, civilians and, to look at it fiscally, resources. And admin time. Surely that would have saved him a lot of effort over fighting a war on 2 fronts (him vs the warp and later against horus on terra).

What are your thoughts?

I believe the quote is

More than that, the genestore contains the means to destroy what it created. That which I bound within the fibre of every Space Marine can be undone, unravelling their strength and purpose at a stroke - Deliverance Lost p167

I can see Daves point of view and agree with him but then why even make a mention of it? It shouldn't have been mentioned at all because something that could clearly turn the tide of the war shouldn't be ignored.

The Emperor gave Corax the knowledge of how to use the Genetech, I'm pretty sure that he could have given Corax the same on how to use the Legion off switch.

Edit: Spellinz

The reality is that the Emperor is just a moron through no fault of his own. The GW writers have written themselves into a hole by making him out as this near-omniscient/omnipotent being because if he was nearly as intelligent as he's made out to be than the Heresy wouldn't have happened. There are so many instances where catastrophe could have been averted if the Emperor had just used some god-damn common sense, but if he did that then we wouldn't have a story.

So, we're stuck with things like this.

BlaxicanX wrote:The GW writers have written themselves into a hole by making him out as this near-omniscient/omnipotent being because if he was nearly as intelligent as he's made out to be than the Heresy wouldn't have happened.

BL writers, if any. GW never actually portrayed the Emperor through an objective lens; in fact they go out of their way stating how everything is distorted.

From what I'm reading here, I would agree with Pilau Rice's opinion - things like this just shouldn't be written down if they make the end result look stupid. I imagine that few readers actually notice it, though.

Lynata wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:The GW writers have written themselves into a hole by making him out as this near-omniscient/omnipotent being because if he was nearly as intelligent as he's made out to be than the Heresy wouldn't have happened.

BL writers, if any. GW never actually portrayed the Emperor through an objective lens; in fact they go out of their way stating how everything is distorted.

From what I'm reading here, I would agree with Pilau Rice's opinion - things like this just shouldn't be written down if they make the end result look stupid. I imagine that few readers actually notice it, though.

No, but the sadder people, like myself, do

In yet another, you defied the Anathema - the creature you name the Emperor, falsely considering it to be human - and you were executed by your brothers Curze and Russ. Your heart was cut from your corpse and a great sorcery of alchemical and genetic power was wrought upon all who shared your bloodline. Your legion was poisoned, reduced to madness, and finally annihilated by the fleets of the Ultramar King - Aurelian p64

A more plausible explanation but it's also lending credence to the quote in Deliverance Lost, suggesting that it is possible. I can forgive ADB for this, after all, it's spoken from the lips of a Daemon, but the Deliverance Lost quote is spoken directly from the Empapa.

Good one, I'd forgotten about that

I read it as referencing the fact that every Legion's gene seed has some sort of exploitable flaw. Not that big E can just push a button and destroy a Legion but that things like the Wulfen, Red Thirst, Change (1k Sons), etc are results of the Emperor designing minor flaws into their genes and they become more prominent and common over the course of the Legions life span.

The Emperor never intended for the Legions to have to be constantly recreating themselves through the massive progenoid harvests of 10,000 years after the heresy which is why the Marines in 30,000 are far more stable than those in the 41st millennium. The Great Crusade was supposed to end and the Legions would not be required to continue to replenish their ranks any longer and so the flaws wouldn't manifest themselves to the extent that we see them in 40k.

With the exception of the 1k sons, who's genetic mutation seems to be too severe from the beginning, all the other great mutations of the 41st millennium were triggered during the HH some how or have escalated due to how the genetic defects have worsened and spread over 10 millenia. The constant growing and harvesting of flawed genetic materials makes the occurrence of genetic defects more and more common over time.

TLDR: The flaw the Emperor put into each Legion is specific to that legion as something the Emperor could potentially exploit if need be but it isn't a push button solution and would need to be triggered on a case by case basis, presumably, by the Emperor himself. I doubt any flaw he designed on purpose for exploitation could be triggered by any other being than the Emperor. We'll see were they are going with this in the Blood Angel HH novel where Horus attempts to awaken the BA flaw in order to turn them to Khorne. At least I hope we do...

OverwatchCNC wrote:I read it as referencing the fact that every Legion's gene seed has some sort of exploitable flaw. Not that big E can just push a button and destroy a Legion but that things like the Wulfen, Red Thirst, Change (1k Sons), etc are results of the Emperor designing minor flaws into their genes and they become more prominent and common over the course of the Legions life span.

I see what you are saying but not all the Legions had flaws, or ones that were as apparent as the likes of the Space Wolves or Thousand Sons. The Red Thirst was, if I recall an affliction caused by the events of the Heresy, much like the Black Rage. Fear to Tread though should hopefully provide more information if this is the case.

Flaws in the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons were also common from the offset, and were possibly intended.

OverwatchCNC wrote:The Emperor never intended for the Legions to have to be constantly recreating themselves through the massive progenoid harvests of 10,000 years after the heresy which is why the Marines in 30,000 are far more stable than those in the 41st millennium. The Great Crusade was supposed to end and the Legions would not be required to continue to replenish their ranks any longer and so the flaws wouldn't manifest themselves to the extent that we see them in 40k.

Stable or Sterile? Many of the original Legions and their subsequent Foundings from their stock have lost certain uses in their Geneseed over the period, it's quite apparent in some Chapters, especially the ones of the Cursed Founding, that Geneseed is not stable at all in some cases.

OverwatchCNC wrote:With the exception of the 1k sons, who's genetic mutation seems to be too severe from the beginning, all the other great mutations of the 41st millennium were triggered during the HH some how or have escalated due to how the genetic defects have worsened and spread over 10 millenia. The constant growing and harvesting of flawed genetic materials makes the occurrence of genetic defects more and more common over time

Not so in all cases, but I get your meaning.

OverwatchCNC wrote:TLDR: The flaw the Emperor put into each Legion is specific to that legion as something the Emperor could potentially exploit if need be but it isn't a push button solution and would need to be triggered on a case by case basis, presumably, by the Emperor himself. I doubt any flaw he designed on purpose for exploitation could be triggered by any other being than the Emperor. We'll see were they are going with this in the Blood Angel HH novel where Horus attempts to awaken the BA flaw in order to turn them to Khorne. At least I hope we do...

More than that, the genestore contains the means to destroy what it created. That which I bound within the fibre of every Space Marine can be undone, unravelling their strength and purpose at a stroke - Deliverance Lost p167

unravelling their strength and purpose at a stroke - to me that suggest that there is an off switch, at a stroke doesn't mean long drawn out process.

Also looking forward to Fear to Tread

Edit: Spellinz and quote bawkes, BAWKSES, we will put quotes in BAWKSES

Frankly, the Emperor would be dumb not to hard-wire a kill switch into the Legions. As to why he didn't use it -- the answer is obvious: everything was going according to plan.

Manchu wrote:Frankly, the Emperor would be dumb not to hard-wire a kill switch into the Legions. As to why he didn't use it -- the answer is obvious: everything was going according to plan.

Then Horus Fethed up. I believe it was to get rid of the Astartes Legions because there would be no more wars to fight anymore once the imperium was reunited and the Galaxy conquered. We only see the threats of 41st millennium but considering the Imperium would be rocketing towards new technology.

Asherian Command wrote:

Manchu wrote:Frankly, the Emperor would be dumb not to hard-wire a kill switch into the Legions. As to why he didn't use it -- the answer is obvious: everything was going according to plan.

Then Horus Fethed up. I believe it was to get rid of the Astartes Legions because there would be no more wars to fight anymore once the imperium was reunited and the Galaxy conquered. We only see the threats of 41st millennium but considering the Imperium would be rocketing towards new technology.

Ting Ting Ting, thought that way before but not actually in regards to this discussion.

Much like the Thunder Warriors hmm?

Manchu wrote:Frankly, the Emperor would be dumb not to hard-wire a kill switch into the Legions. As to why he didn't use it -- the answer is obvious: everything was going according to plan.

Hey Corax, you can take the Genetech and my knowledge of it with you, just don't touch the big red button that will destroy YOUR TREACHEROUS BROTHERS IN ONE FELL SWOOP.

Ok Empapa, but why not, wouldn't that make the Horus Heresy series a lot cheaper and manageable for its readers, as well as save countless of billions of lives.

It would Son, but I want to be a God ... I mean, I want our readers to have lots to read and lots of interesting stuff to happen, some of it that doesn't make sense. Also the Imperial Truth is the truth, honest

I love you Empapa!

Manchu wrote:Frankly, the Emperor would be dumb not to hard-wire a kill switch into the Legions. As to why he didn't use it -- the answer is obvious: everything was going according to plan.

Personally, I don't think the Emperor intending a "kill switch" would have been a bad idea. It would fit with the theory of Him only having created the Astartes as a temporary solution - a means to drive Mankind onwards until the Great Crusade was completed, after which the Space Marines would have simply not been needed anymore. Yet warriors without a purpose grow restless, and since they were not meant to replace humanity but merely supplement it, they would have become a liability in this Ideal Imperium. The solution? Deconstruction, as quick as possible to avoid a potential fallout.

Of course, the Horus Heresy having taken place and this solution obviously not having been used makes the above seem silly, so whilst it might have fit otherwise it does not fit the way things went, and as such should not have been talked about.

Granted, a possible explanation might have been that this "kill switch" would exterminate all Space Marines indescriminately, including the Loyalist Legions, but given how things went this would have still secured a much easier victory for the Imperium, simply because one side would have suddenly been without any leadership whilst the other still had Emps.
Then there's also the possibility of the Emperor not having wanted to kill His Marines because he supposedly grew so attached to them ... Though I believe this to be M41 propaganda, as I do not see the Emperor as being that soft. Even the new rulebook denounces itself as being an unreliable source, stating that history had been altered so many times.

Pilau Rice wrote:Hey Corax, you can take the Genetech and my knowledge of it with you, just don't touch the big red button that will destroy YOUR TREACHEROUS as well as all your loyal BROTHERS IN ONE FELL SWOOP.

FIFY.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:Of course, the Horus Heresy having taken place and this solution obviously not having been used makes the above seem silly, so whilst it might have fit otherwise it does not fit the way things went, and as such should not have been talked about.

My suggestion is that any kill switch was not used because the Horus Heresy was the goal of making Primarchs and Space Marines.

Pilau Rice wrote:

kitch102 wrote:There's a bit in the book where

Spoiler:

the emperor says to corax that the secret weapon will allow him to raise a new army of space marines, bringing the raven guard back up to fighting strength. He goes on to say that it is also the key to the destruction of the marines, as though he can kill them all at the push of a button.

My question then is

Spoiler:

why, when horus and his crew of miscreants turned against the emperor, did he not just push the button and start with a fresh slate? He'd have killed the loyal marines too, but saved countless of billions of guard, civilians and, to look at it fiscally, resources. And admin time. Surely that would have saved him a lot of effort over fighting a war on 2 fronts (him vs the warp and later against horus on terra).

What are your thoughts?

I believe the quote is

More than that, the genestore contains the means to destroy what it created. That which I bound within the fibre of every Space Marine can be undone, unravelling their strength and purpose at a stroke - Deliverance Lost p167

I can see Daves point of view and agree with him but then why even make a mention of it? It shouldn't have been mentioned at all because something that could clearly turn the tide of the war shouldn't be ignored.

The Emperor gave Corax the knowledge of how to use the Genetech, I'm pretty sure that he could have given Corax the same on how to use the Legion off switch.

Edit: Spellinz

Simply put...
The Emperor, for all his power and majesty, is still human.

What father can kill their children even when they turn against them when there is still a chance of redemption?

The kill switch mentioned in Deliverance Lost hinted at it being a broad spectrum thing, as the Emp sais to Croax "take this knowledge with you, though would you be prepared to [end the lives] of your brothers [both loyal and traitor] if the time called for it?"

Corax - I will [Daddy]

The bits in brackets are where I can't remember the exact wording, though that's essentially the gist of it.

I'm sure I've seen other quotes in HH books where a Marine or Primarch (don't ask, I don't know) has said that the Marines were not meant to be a long lived solution, and hinted at them just being a temporary thing.

The Emperor is not really a father and the Primarchs are not really his children nor are they really brothers among themselves. This metaphor of family is a political structure. The Primarchs were not created to console a lonely Emperor who wanted to love his kids. They were created, at least on a superficial level, to conquer the galaxy.

Also, since that kill-switch (according to Aurelian) requires the, ahem, "corpse" of a primarch. Whether it would be a valid solution to capture Mortarion, Fulgrim or Perturabo and from their body create a weapon to destroy their legions is up for debate.

Personally, I think that any legion created by the genetech would have a vulnerability to that genetech. Keeping it out of enemy hands was essential so that the Raven Guard would not be destroyed and the Chaos Legions bolstered, rather than it being a threat to all loyal marines. At least, that's how I read it

I'm getting the feeling that Gav wanted to write something more controversial than "he was waiting to see which side would win" ?

It's funny that not so many people have people have picked up on it, and there hasn't been the poo-storm that surrounded 'Angels of Darkness'.

The "secret weapon" was already used once to destroy the ThunderWarriors.

Now the Grey Knights and the golden throne each have this super weapon.

Also, if the primarchs were made with the powers of chaos... and astartes are made from primarchs... is it any wonder that half the legions went traitor?

Because whoever wrote Deliverance Lost had missed the lesson in English Literature 101 about Chekhov's Gun.

And if you've never attended English Literature 101, here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov%27s_gun

The play is not over yet.

DeffDred wrote:The "secret weapon" was already used once to destroy the ThunderWarriors.

With the exception of Anik Taranis, from The Outcast Dead (another damn good book). So if it were the same secret weapon, it can't therefore be a simple case of push the button and hey presto, space marine genocide. Edit - off the back of that little chestnut though, weren't the thunder warriors stronger in every way? So it could be that the 40k era marines would be more succeptible... (End edit)

Unless of course it's not the instantaneous thing that we presume it to be, as Taranis underwent numerous self performed surgical procedures to negate the effects of the weapon.

That brings another question to mind though - if the emperor created his thunder warriors and space marines in his image (and presumably from his own genetic material) then activating the weapon may also have a chance of killing the emperor, which could explain his reluctance to use it... it'd be like nuking his own house whilst he was still in it.

Knowledge is dangerous. Which is one of the key elements of the HH series as a whole. Who can say what the repercussions of using that 'kill switch' might be? He doesn't have perfect knowledge (if for no other reason Chaos opposes him at every turn) so even he can have a hard time predicting consequences. Heck, what guarantee that such a kill switch couldn't be turned against him, since his own genetics are part of Astartes and Primarch makeup (horus and the others are very keen on assassinating the Emperor.)

And no, the Emperor has not been portrayed as perfect (except in the quasi-religious way he's worshipped unofficially) - at least not as I have read it (CF 'The Last Church' by Graham McNeill which gives a good example of WHY the Emperor is not perfect - hell that's another underlying element to the HH series - he's human despite all his power and knowledge, and he's a very lonely human at that.)

Lynata wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:The GW writers have written themselves into a hole by making him out as this near-omniscient/omnipotent being because if he was nearly as intelligent as he's made out to be than the Heresy wouldn't have happened.

BL writers, if any. GW never actually portrayed the Emperor through an objective lens; in fact they go out of their way stating how everything is distorted.

From what I'm reading here, I would agree with Pilau Rice's opinion - things like this just shouldn't be written down if they make the end result look stupid. I imagine that few readers actually notice it, though.

They both get the blame. Yes, BL writers wrote the junk. They have editors though, who ensure that what they're writing is GW approved.

Furthermore, the Black Library is a sub-category of Games Workshop's property, so I don't think there's really a point in trying to make a distinction there. BL writers work for GW.

I seriously doubt the Emperor would design a weapon to kill his greatest military creations that can be wielded by anyone but himself, or Malcador/Custodes/Grey Knights, which are basically extensions of himself. I don't think the Primarchs had the ability to use the kill switch but knowledge of it by certain primarchs isn't unreasonable. I think what was said to Corax was a warning against meddling in things he didn't understand more than a warning against accidentally hitting the red button. Building in a kill switch that could be used by the Primarchs doesn't make much sense, I read the passage a bit differently. The part about using the weapon even against his brothers I took to mean the enhanced Astartes that he would attempt to create not the "kill switch".

The kill switch as it were would literally have to be a weapon of last resort against the Astartes and Primarchs and must only work on all at once or none of them. Otherwise there would be no need for the Space Wolves and Leman Russ, the Emperors executioners, who are the destroyers of other SM Legions.

To be perfectly honest the idea of a kill switch for the Astartes makes sense, especially when you think about the Thunderwarriors and how the Officio Assasinorum, and others, were trying to deal with the "Astartes Problem" before the Heresy had even ended.

If the Emperor would share such knowledge with any Primarch, it would be Corvax.

Pilau Rice wrote:I believe the quote is

More than that, the genestore contains the means to destroy what it created. That which I bound within the fibre of every Space Marine can be undone, unravelling their strength and purpose at a stroke - Deliverance Lost p167

I haven't read Deliverance Lost but if that is the quote all this stems from then it doesn't necessarily sound like an 'off button'. If all the space marines were 'turned off' it wouldn't take away their purpose as their purpose would still exist. Maybe it is something more along the lines of: the genestore has enough to finally finish off the crusade and thus take away the purpose of the space marines. At least something a little more outside of the box than an 'off switch'. Surely? ...if not I'm saddened by crappy writing.

The term kill-switch is being talked about ITT more conceptually than literally.