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Kanluwen wrote:What father can kill their children even when they turn against them when there is still a chance of redemption?

He killed the Thunder Warrirors once they have served their purpose and 2 other Legions were destroyed. I think he is pretty capable honestly. He isn't a mere man with mere mortal ties.

kitch102 wrote:The kill switch mentioned in Deliverance Lost hinted at it being a broad spectrum thing, as the Emp sais to Croax "take this knowledge with you, though would you be prepared to [end the lives] of your brothers [both loyal and traitor] if the time called for it?"

I will have to check this part myself. The way I interpreted it, it would be just Legion specific, after all they were all created differently from different Gene seed.

kitch102 wrote:

DeffDred wrote:The "secret weapon" was already used once to destroy the ThunderWarriors.

With the exception of Anik Taranis, from The Outcast Dead (another damn good book). So if it were the same secret weapon, it can't therefore be a simple case of push the button and hey presto, space marine genocide. Edit - off the back of that little chestnut though, weren't the thunder warriors stronger in every way? So it could be that the 40k era marines would be more succeptible... (End edit)

Unless of course it's not the instantaneous thing that we presume it to be, as Taranis underwent numerous self performed surgical procedures to negate the effects of the weapon.

Another good book yes, but full of bad writing and one of the biggest time line errors in the series, apparently it was intentional and the WARP DID IT! The quote in Aurelian hints that it wouldn't be instantaneous, but more of a gradual decay due to madness.

They don't check a given BL writer's work for consistency. There's no internal GW-approved "canon" that a BL novel has to adhere to before being printed, unlike the Star Wars books, which *does* have a set pattern and rules of canon any approved publication bearing the Star Wars name must adhere to.

If a BL writer wanted, he could publish a book that had Ultramarines going into battle in hot pink power armor. GW will not care.

Psienesis wrote:They don't check a given BL writer's work for consistency. There's no internal GW-approved "canon" that a BL novel has to adhere to before being printed, unlike the Star Wars books, which *does* have a set pattern and rules of canon any approved publication bearing the Star Wars name must adhere to.

There is a difference between canon and consistency.

If a BL writer wanted, he could publish a book that had Ultramarines going into battle in hot pink power armor. GW will not care.

I highly doubt it. Source?

Well another thing to remember is The Emperor was the most powerful psyker around, so it could be a psychic killswitch. Another thing to consider as to why he didnt activate it (If it existed) was that it would cause rebellion from the rest of the marines. Considering their purpose had not yet been fulfilled it would be a major kink in his plans. Also didn't the emperor try to convince Horus to stop even in the last fight, shows some amount of compassion that he had for Horus, even though Horus was not his son, it is not a far stretch to imagine The Emperor thinking of the primarchs as very close friends, and quite possibly Horus as his best friend. Think about it, if your best friend went dark side wouldn't you try to get them to see the light.

Wardragoon wrote:Another thing to consider as to why he didnt activate it (If it existed) was that it would cause rebellion from the rest of the marines. .

Which ones, the ones already rebelling or the ones that were with the Emperor against the ones that were rebelling? Or the Dark Angels, who we aren't sure about...

Pilau Rice wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:Another thing to consider as to why he didnt activate it (If it existed) was that it would cause rebellion from the rest of the marines. .

Which ones, the ones already rebelling or the ones that were with the Emperor against the ones that were rebelling? Or the Dark Angels, who we aren't sure about...

The most amazing thing would be if some of the Primarchs caught up with the scheme, and knew of the Emperor's plan to hit the 'off' switch when their purpose was done.

That might provide a sufficient reason for the heresy to take place, and for Horus to side with the Chaos gods against the Emperor? At least it would be something, at the moment when it comes down to it really the reasons for Horus turning against over 200 years of following his father, fighting alongside him, saving him even.

The idea that the Emperor was just going to kill all the Marines after the Great Crusade is ... dubious. Guilliman for one is consciously preparing his Legion for running a small empire and many other Primarchs were the leaders of entire worlds before being re-discovered by the Emperor. The Primarchs were not merely conquerors but also kings. I'd think any kill-switch would be used in the event of the Legions messing up the Emperor's larger plans. The fact that he apparently didn't use the kill switch during the HH suggests to me that the HH was part of his larger plans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pacific wrote:That might provide a sufficient reason for the heresy to take place, and for Horus to side with the Chaos gods against the Emperor?

It'd be a lot better than the "have weird vision/totally believe it's true" crap we currently have, actually.

I guess one could say the point of this very weak motivation is that it's not Horus's real motivation. The vision is just an excuse to do something that he wanted to do -- and perhaps was "programmed" to do -- all along.

Pacific wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:Another thing to consider as to why he didnt activate it (If it existed) was that it would cause rebellion from the rest of the marines. .

Which ones, the ones already rebelling or the ones that were with the Emperor against the ones that were rebelling? Or the Dark Angels, who we aren't sure about...

The most amazing thing would be if some of the Primarchs caught up with the scheme, and knew of the Emperor's plan to hit the 'off' switch when their purpose was done.

That might provide a sufficient reason for the heresy to take place, and for Horus to side with the Chaos gods against the Emperor? At least it would be something, at the moment when it comes down to it really the reasons for Horus turning against over 200 years of following his father, fighting alongside him, saving him even.

If that were the case though wouldn't all the Primarchs rebel? I can imagine that even the most butt kissing loyal ones wouldn't be too chuffed with this.

It could go either way I guess - some (if not most) would be thinking "feth that, I wana live", whilst others (possibly of a more "he is the god emperor" view point) would go along with it, as it's what the emperor commands.

But yeah I think for the most part the Astartes would kick off a stink about that.

Then the Emp calls on the daemons he's been fighting to hold back to kill the marines. Life's a bitch - lol.

The line-up would probably be a bit different if that was the case. I can imagine Konrad, for example, fighting for the Emperor in that scenario and Guilliman fighting against him.

Curze? How come? I don't know much about him..

He had a vision of the Emperor killing him, which made him all morose. After the HH, he allowed himself to be assassinated by the Imperium with all of his First Captains standing around watching -- just to prove that his vision was true. My take is that his neurosis was one-part persecution complex and one-part death wish. If the Emperor was going to kill all of them, that takes care of the persecution complex and he can work along merrily with his death wish.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:Another thing to consider as to why he didnt activate it (If it existed) was that it would cause rebellion from the rest of the marines. .

Which ones, the ones already rebelling or the ones that were with the Emperor against the ones that were rebelling? Or the Dark Angels, who we aren't sure about...

The remaining loyalists, history has proven people get a little goofy when someone has an 'I win' button

Glorioski wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:I believe the quote is

More than that, the genestore contains the means to destroy what it created. That which I bound within the fibre of every Space Marine can be undone, unravelling their strength and purpose at a stroke - Deliverance Lost p167

I haven't read Deliverance Lost but if that is the quote all this stems from then it doesn't necessarily sound like an 'off button'. If all the space marines were 'turned off' it wouldn't take away their purpose as their purpose would still exist. Maybe it is something more along the lines of: the genestore has enough to finally finish off the crusade and thus take away the purpose of the space marines. At least something a little more outside of the box than an 'off switch'. Surely? ...if not I'm saddened by crappy writing.

It isn't just that quote. There is a speech that a Thunderwarrior gives in "Outcast Dead" and a passage in the Grey Knights Codex.

DeffDred wrote:

Glorioski wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:I believe the quote is

More than that, the genestore contains the means to destroy what it created. That which I bound within the fibre of every Space Marine can be undone, unravelling their strength and purpose at a stroke - Deliverance Lost p167

I haven't read Deliverance Lost but if that is the quote all this stems from then it doesn't necessarily sound like an 'off button'. If all the space marines were 'turned off' it wouldn't take away their purpose as their purpose would still exist. Maybe it is something more along the lines of: the genestore has enough to finally finish off the crusade and thus take away the purpose of the space marines. At least something a little more outside of the box than an 'off switch'. Surely? ...if not I'm saddened by crappy writing.

It isn't just that quote. There is a speech that a Thunderwarrior gives in "Outcast Dead" and a passage in the Grey Knights Codex.

It all stems from what is referred to in the 3rd Space Wolf novel as "the Astartes" problem. The fluff in general has a problem, the Astartes problem. The universe of 40k is populated by countless trillions of "puny" humans who are protected by a small race of super humans who are so awesome that 100 of them can conquer an entire planet. That's a problem fluff wise, which is why they have begun to introduce the idea that the Emperor understood "the Astartes problem" and created a way to deal with it. The entire idea of the Space Marine, while central to the entire structure of the 40k universe, creates a significant problem story and game wise for GW and BL. I really like the idea that their super OP nature is being addressed in the fluff by other parts of the Imperium and in particular by the Emperor. It honestly makes me feel better about the Emperor knowing he understood the problem(s) that could arise from the creation of the Primarchs and the Legions. His being wary to use this off switch or kill switch might stem from the fact that he couldn't use it and have the Imperium survive.

If I have the time line correct, the events surrounding Magnus and the breaching of the Webway under the Himalayas happened prior to Horus' treachery becoming known. Also the fall of Prospero and Magnus occurs prior to the events on Istvaan which crippled the Raven Guard. Therefore the Emperor could not use his kill switch to solve the Heresy and Astartes problem because he is now tied permanently to using the Golden Throne to hold back the Daemons from overrunning the universe through the broken webway. He only leaves the throne, which kills Malcador who replaces him temporarily on the throne, to combat Horus. The only other psyker capable of holding the throne long term was Magnus, who by the time of Deliverance was dead to him, and that option wasn't open. Being permanently tied to the Golden Throne with no recourse for getting off it he couldn't kill switch the Legions. Without the Legions the Imperium would fall apart permanently and the Emperor would be incapable of leaving the Golden Throne to rebuild the Legions or the Imperium. So his only course of action was what occurred in the fluff, and the kill switch remained unused because to use it would spell the end of everything he had tried to create not just the Heresy and the Astartes.

This is what I have always assumed about the passages regarding the Astartes Problem and the Emperor, I am assuming of course that my timeline of events is correct...

You know, I wonder if Magnus -- now remorseful -- sits on his own version of the Golden Throne, holding the Eye of Terror in check somehow.

Manchu wrote:You know, I wonder if Magnus -- now remorseful -- sits on his own version of the Golden Throne, holding the Eye of Terror in check somehow.

That would be both fitting, and awesome. I always liked Magnus and felt he was just stuck between a rock (big E) and a hard place (Tzeentch); and through little fault of his own his life and his legion just got completely screwed over.

I maintain that he is absolutely responsible for his own failings and that he is completely and consciously a traitor. I just envision him realizing this as a daemon prince and trying to do something to make up for it, unto scheming against the Changer of Ways himself. This would, of course, please Tzeentch immensely and totally not impress the Emperor, truly making Magnus's daemon princedom the waking hell he deserves.

Really? I always thought of Magnus as hard done by...

Prosecuted for using the powers that emperor gave him & Had the wolves unleashed for trying to do the right thing - warn the emperor of the impending fight.

If there's anyone deserving of an apology in the 40k universe, its Magnus imho.

However, the chaos gods always had their eyes on him, and wanted him to lead the heresy originally. Though when it became apparent that he was too strong to manipulate they used him as a key to locking the emperor down to the throne. Perhaps to ensure that the emperor couldn't use the kill switch (whilst somehow keeping Magnus alive), which would mean that chaos would be truly locked in the warp with the 2 strongest human psykers on this side of the veil locking them out by taking it in turns on the golden throne.

If only he could've sent a text message instead...

Emperor: "If you use sorcery after now, you will be a traitor."

Magnus: "He doesn't know what he's talking about. I'll show him!"

Yeah, sounds like he had nothing but the best intentions ...

Sounds like your average father / son relationship to me.

Magnus had the best intentions in using sorcery to warn the emperor, and debated heavily with himself as to what the best way of notifying him was. He made a decision and that's how it played out.

That phrase the road to hell is paved with good intentions springs to mind

Except Magnus was not a teenage boy. He was a Primarch. He rationalized his arrogant treachery as courageous loyalty. Under the veneer of good intentions, his true motivation was a a lust for knowledge and power and a lack of self-control. This is why he is the opposite of Leman Russ: on the outside, Russ seems wild and savage but within he is a controlled, coldblooded killer.

I didn't refer to him as a teenager, merely as a son. I'm knocking on 30 and still think I know better than my dad. Same deal with Magnus and the emperor, it boils down to communication; they had the same goals but as neither shared their knowledge with the other they ended up at nikaea, and you know the rest of it.

Yes Magnus lusted after knowledge and the power that could be gained by it, that doesn't make his intentions at the time of wrecking the golden throne to be bad intentions.

Wasn't there a paragraph in one of the books where the emperor or a representative said it wasn't what the emperor wanted, but he had to go along with what others wanted as they afraid of Magnus' power? I don't remember which, guessing Prospero Burns.

It's really not a matter of family. It's a matter of chain of command. He disobeyed a direct order given to him to his face on pain of being considered an absolute traitor.

Manchu wrote:I maintain that he is absolutely responsible for his own failings and that he is completely and consciously a traitor. I just envision him realizing this as a daemon prince and trying to do something to make up for it, unto scheming against the Changer of Ways himself. This would, of course, please Tzeentch immensely and totally not impress the Emperor, truly making Magnus's daemon princedom the waking hell he deserves.

I'm kind of surprised that you wrote that Manchu, and think its a bit of a black and white condemnation of his situation. Have you not read A Thousand Sons? I found it very hard to feel anything but sympathy at the entire set of circumstances surrounding Magnus, as you ultimately realise that he was a pawn all along.



Just my thoughts in any case!

The Emperor made it a black-and-white issue. If Magnus had just accepted that the Emperor was (1) smarter than him and/or (2) his master, he wouldn't have betrayed the Emperor.

Manchu wrote:It's really not a matter of family. It's a matter of chain of command. He disobeyed a direct order given to him to his face on pain of being considered an absolute traitor.

Sure, but Magnus realized what the Emperor did not. That the Council of Nikea was engineered to rob the Legions of their greatest weapon against the forces of Chaos, Librarians.

Guilliman realizes this great strategy of Chaos during the battle for Calth.

Back OT, my timeline works out right? I am fairly certain this explains to the OP why the Emperor didn't execute his Astartes Exterminatus


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pacific wrote:

Manchu wrote:I maintain that he is absolutely responsible for his own failings and that he is completely and consciously a traitor. I just envision him realizing this as a daemon prince and trying to do something to make up for it, unto scheming against the Changer of Ways himself. This would, of course, please Tzeentch immensely and totally not impress the Emperor, truly making Magnus's daemon princedom the waking hell he deserves.

I'm kind of surprised that you wrote that Manchu, and think its a bit of a black and white condemnation of his situation. Have you not read A Thousand Sons? I found it very hard to feel anything but sympathy at the entire set of circumstances surrounding Magnus, as you ultimately realise that he was a pawn all along.

Spoiler:

At the end of the book, when he teleports his remaining marines to the daemon world that had been prepared thousands of years previously (and yes.. just a thousand marines survive) you realise that Magnus, for all of his power, is nothing compared to both his father and the powers of Tzeentch. And I think perhaps more sadly he also realises this is the case, and resigns himself to his fate as a servant of Chaos. McNeil is wonderful at writing end-of-book extracts that are practically breathtaking and make your hair stand on end; the machinery workshops of the Admech slipping beneath the magma in Mechanicum, Fulgrim's moment of realisation of what his legion has become at the end of that book. And, I think the moment in the final chapter of A Thousand Sons equals those. To me McNeil had done a wonderful job of creating a Primarch with character, and something that the readership could relate to despite their 'otherworldlyness' - something not every BL author has managed - and while some of his decisions were questionable (ultimately serving to doom him in fact), you are there with him in the book and you understand why each one of them has been made.

Just my thoughts in any case!

I disagree. Magnus recognizes the sanction on Astartes psykers for what it really is. The Emperor does not. The Emperor is not an omniscient being, he may be immortal and omnipotent but he clearly is not omniscient. I think the Emperor fails to realize this until it is too late.

Manchu wrote:The Emperor made it a black-and-white issue. If Magnus had just accepted that the Emperor was (1) smarter than him and/or (2) his master, he wouldn't have betrayed the Emperor.

Yes but I don't think it is that simple. From the very conception of the Legion, we learn that Magnus had had to turn to avenues other than the Emperor to save his legion. The description is rather enigmatic, but we are given the impression that Magnus' eye was 'sacrificed' in some form to save them from the continued transformations that would have destroyed them.

I think that the Emperor creating the Legion, but then them suffering serious mishap, might have given him cause to doubt the omnipotence of his father. And upon learning that Horus planned to rebel, and that everything his father had worked to accomplish might be destroyed, in his own mind he had no choice but to disobey his father in order to offset a much greater tragedy occurring. For the greater good in a way, except of course it didn't turn out to be such a small transgression..

At the end of A Thousand Sons you can almost imagine the curtain call; As Magnus takes his seat on the throne of a daemon world, a group of Tzeenchian daemons look on. One of them takes a bow to the others, and they respond with applause and laughter - each sequence of events had been so perfectly planned, each cause and effect right from the very birth of the legion, through their troubles, Magnus' decisions and the sending of the Space Wolves to Prospero, like a row of dominoes finally coming to an end. I think Magnus realised this.. and perhaps ultimately that the Emperor had been right all along, and submitted to his fate. His humbling at the end of the book - and ultimately understanding that even a creature such as his self was just a minnow in the grand scheme of things, I found wonderfully evocative.

It was an interesting read in any case.. and I think brought up some interesting ideas regarding free will, what constitutes it exactly, and the nature of determinism. One of the wonderful things about sci-fi/fantasy, that such a framework allows these ideas to be explored, and quite a rare thing within the confines of most BL books.

It's a little weak to say that warp-dabblers are the only ones who could save the Imperium from the warp when it was warp-dabblers who put it in danger to begin with. The is exactly the flaw of Magnus's logic. The Emperor may not be omniscient but he's much more knowledgeable than Magnus.

Manchu wrote:He had a vision of the Emperor killing him, which made him all morose. After the HH, he allowed himself to be assassinated by the Imperium with all of his First Captains standing around watching -- just to prove that his vision was true. My take is that his neurosis was one-part persecution complex and one-part death wish. If the Emperor was going to kill all of them, that takes care of the persecution complex and he can work along merrily with his death wish.

I like that, sort of Sephiroth trying to bring about the end in Final Fantasy VII.

OverwatchCNC wrote:

It all stems from what is referred to in the 3rd Space Wolf novel as "the Astartes" problem. The fluff in general has a problem, the Astartes problem. The universe of 40k is populated by countless trillions of "puny" humans who are protected by a small race of super humans who are so awesome that 100 of them can conquer an entire planet. That's a problem fluff wise, which is why they have begun to introduce the idea that the Emperor understood "the Astartes problem" and created a way to deal with it. The entire idea of the Space Marine, while central to the entire structure of the 40k universe, creates a significant problem story and game wise for GW and BL. I really like the idea that their super OP nature is being addressed in the fluff by other parts of the Imperium and in particular by the Emperor. It honestly makes me feel better about the Emperor knowing he understood the problem(s) that could arise from the creation of the Primarchs and the Legions. His being wary to use this off switch or kill switch might stem from the fact that he couldn't use it and have the Imperium survive.

My idea of thinking on this is once there were no more major threats, Mankind could look after itself, without the assistance of Super Humans. I bet the Empapa though is kind of glad that he didn't use the kill switch as we now have Necrons and Tyranids and the Astartes are required more than ever.

OverwatchCNC wrote:If I have the time line correct, the events surrounding Magnus and the breaching of the Webway under the Himalayas happened prior to Horus' treachery becoming known. Also the fall of Prospero and Magnus occurs prior to the events on Istvaan which crippled the Raven Guard. Therefore the Emperor could not use his kill switch to solve the Heresy and Astartes problem because he is now tied permanently to using the Golden Throne to hold back the Daemons from overrunning the universe through the broken webway. He only leaves the throne, which kills Malcador who replaces him temporarily on the throne, to combat Horus. The only other psyker capable of holding the throne long term was Magnus, who by the time of Deliverance was dead to him, and that option wasn't open. Being permanently tied to the Golden Throne with no recourse for getting off it he couldn't kill switch the Legions. Without the Legions the Imperium would fall apart permanently and the Emperor would be incapable of leaving the Golden Throne to rebuild the Legions or the Imperium. So his only course of action was what occurred in the fluff, and the kill switch remained unused because to use it would spell the end of everything he had tried to create not just the Heresy and the Astartes.

I still believe that it's on a Legion per Legion basis, but your explanation as to why it wasn't used is a sound one But my only gripe would be that he could just Jedi someone into doing what was needed to be done.

Pacific wrote:Fulgrim's moment of realisation of what his legion has become at the end of that book.

Reflection Crack'd, although I am glad to havehim back, definitely ruined this notion, if we are to take it at face value. It would have been better imho that Fulgrim recognised what Slaanesh could offer on Istvaan and allowed the possession to occur. Better yet, why just not have the whole possession at all. Fulgrims fall was supposed to be one of the most bitter and disgusting corruptions by Horus, it failed at portraying anything like this, But I digress.

Pacific wrote:[
I think that the Emperor creating the Legion, but then them suffering serious mishap, might have given him cause to doubt the omnipotence of his father. And upon learning that Horus planned to rebel, and that everything his father had worked to accomplish might be destroyed, in his own mind he had no choice but to disobey his father in order to offset a much greater tragedy occurring. For the greater good in a way, except of course it didn't turn out to be such a small transgression..

No man, the Emperor made the flaw himself, he needed Magnus to sit on the Throne but knew he wouldn't leave his Sons, so built in a timebomb that would destroy the Legion and give Magnus purpose to go on, assisting the Imperium and mankind