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I am just starting to get into Space Wolves and I am curious why everyone writes Blood Claws off as being terrible is the 4 attacks a piece on the charge not worth it? I can see how good Grey Hunters are but would it be a bad idea to run at least one 10 man squad of Blood Claws.

It's not a bad idea it's simply that grey hunters are just better for that same slot. That said, in this edition lukas the trickster can be fairly ridiculous upgrade if you have an enemy character that you just need to kill.

grey hunters are just better i am afraid

Don't they have a rule where they can't shoot the turn they assault making their extra attack pointless?

They ignore that rule when led by a character. That said, their only advantage is +2 attacks on the charge and being able to be fielded as a 15 man mob.

Unfortunately, Grey hunters are the same points for better WS and BS and equipped with an extra bolt gun (which will be more useful in this edition).

Kevlar wrote:Don't they have a rule where they can't shoot the turn they assault making their extra attack pointless?

Only if not led by a character.
A Wolf Priest in the unit really makes up for their lack of weapon skill compared to Grey Hunters.
Not so many re-rolls as in fith, but still helps.

Mostly because most people don’t know how to use them. While it is true they cost the same as Grey Hunters and can do most jobs better there is one job they can’t do better, that is assault.

The other part is how to use them. First only make the 15 Man Packs, anything else you might as well go with Grey Hunters. Second Give them a Leader, the Best you can dive them [and in my own opinion] is the Wolf Priest. Third is don’t Assault anything but other Infantry, then Bikes and Cavalry and then MCs, I you assault a Vehicle you are looking to waist you points.

Give them Flamers also give them a Power Axe, Power Sword or Power Fist. Lukas might be worth it, but only as a Counter-Challenge Character and then always Accept the Challenge with him, You want the Wolf Priest to stay alive as lone as possible. Use the Wolf Priest to Give them Favored Enemy: Infantry. Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are also a good choice to add as a controller.

A List of Don’ts [I may repeat myself]:
Don’t Assault Vehicle
Don’t Assault Terminators
Don’t Assault Honor Guards [Those with artificer Armor]

Do Assault:
Infantry
Cavalry
Bikes
MC [but only if you have taken MC as your Favored Enemy]

If you want to put the in a Transport, give them a LRC.

All very nice Anpu but that's very costly for a unit that crumbles almost as quickly as a normal squad of MEQ's.

They can't fire if someone sane is not leading them. That is their biggest weakness. Also WS 3 makes them "easy" kills.
The only thing I have ever been tempted to do was get 15 of them with a wolf priest and loading them into a LR Crusader. That is a lot of points though to put into it.

KrimsunBaron wrote:All very nice Anpu but that's very costly for a unit that crumbles almost as quickly as a normal squad of MEQ's.

Yes they are very costly, with the basic load out with the Wolf Priest you could by 2 Grey Hunter Packs. However they can be devastating, especially with the now Assault Rules vs. I3 armies like Guard and Orks. It might be possible to Assault and inflict enough wounds to not loose any models as they have nothing in range to assault.
The other thing to think about is: Take a look at “Saga of the Hunter” and look at the USR Outflank. I know they wont be able to Assault, but a pack of Blood Claws showing up along one edge in the Rear Area will cause untold Chaos.

You can also take Saga of the Hunter and infiltrate the entire squad in some ruins and builds (that's a 3+ cover save).

Take into account that you can't assault player turn 1 but you can assault player turn 2 to plan the distance accordingly. The rest is just luck and positioning.

The other thing about Blood Claws is they are FUN to play.

I run a list they has 2 Blood Claws Packs each with a Wolf Priest, Thunder Wolf Cavalry, and 2 Lone Wolves. It is not a list I would run seriously and most games are over by turn 4 one way or another, but it is 4 turns of pure carnage.

The other point that has not been made yet, it take some skill [and luck] to run them computably. They also don’t fit into some play styles.

My suggestion is build two Packs of Blood Claws and if they don’t work for you make them 3 Grey Hunters Down the line.

The main issue is Kelly screwed up and dropped GH by 2 points, thus making blood claws redundant as a cheap unit for Space Wolves.

What ZebioLizard2 said. Nothing wrong with blood claws except they got more expensive with fewer special weapons than before and grey hunters got cheaper and better, making them the superior alternative.

Anpu42 wrote:Mostly because most people don’t know how to use them. While it is true they cost the same as Grey Hunters and can do most jobs better there is one job they can’t do better, that is assault.

The other part is how to use them. First only make the 15 Man Packs, anything else you might as well go with Grey Hunters. Second Give them a Leader, the Best you can dive them [and in my own opinion] is the Wolf Priest. Third is don’t Assault anything but other Infantry, then Bikes and Cavalry and then MCs, I you assault a Vehicle you are looking to waist you points.

Give them Flamers also give them a Power Axe, Power Sword or Power Fist. Lukas might be worth it, but only as a Counter-Challenge Character and then always Accept the Challenge with him, You want the Wolf Priest to stay alive as lone as possible. Use the Wolf Priest to Give them Favored Enemy: Infantry. Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are also a good choice to add as a controller.

A List of Don’ts [I may repeat myself]:
Don’t Assault Vehicle
Don’t Assault Terminators
Don’t Assault Honor Guards [Those with artificer Armor]

Do Assault:
Infantry
Cavalry
Bikes
MC [but only if you have taken MC as your Favored Enemy]

If you want to put the in a Transport, give them a LRC.

Dude, they just assault stuff. What's so hard about that? They trade WS 4 for 1 attack ON THE CHARGE. That's barely a CC buff, and they're much worse in shooting, can't take as much melta, need a character not to be total crap, and can't take Wolf Banners. Not to mention WS makes them easier to kill in combat since your opponent gets more hits, hell even Orks have WS4. They should be cheaper than Grey Hunters. Realistically Grey Hunters should be about 2 more points per model and Blood Claws should be WS4 and possibly 1 point cheaper.

Phil Kelly totally botched that. It makes me a little bit scared about Blizzard's attention to detail in writing codexes. It's obvious they can't/don't playtest their dexes well, because anybody can see Grey Hunters are just better in every single way.

Because they are the same points as GHs, basically.

Anpu42 wrote:Mostly because most people don’t know how to use them. While it is true they cost the same as Grey Hunters and can do most jobs better there is one job they can’t do better, that is assault.

The other part is how to use them. First only make the 15 Man Packs, anything else you might as well go with Grey Hunters. Second Give them a Leader, the Best you can dive them [and in my own opinion] is the Wolf Priest. Third is don’t Assault anything but other Infantry, then Bikes and Cavalry and then MCs, I you assault a Vehicle you are looking to waist you points.

Give them Flamers also give them a Power Axe, Power Sword or Power Fist. Lukas might be worth it, but only as a Counter-Challenge Character and then always Accept the Challenge with him, You want the Wolf Priest to stay alive as lone as possible. Use the Wolf Priest to Give them Favored Enemy: Infantry. Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are also a good choice to add as a controller.

A List of Don’ts [I may repeat myself]:
Don’t Assault Vehicle
Don’t Assault Terminators
Don’t Assault Honor Guards [Those with artificer Armor]

Do Assault:
Infantry
Cavalry
Bikes
MC [but only if you have taken MC as your Favored Enemy]

If you want to put the in a Transport, give them a LRC.

This basically translates to: Assault nothing that GHs would not be able to assault and beat in the same situation, and you need to give up a pack of Long Fangs to make them non-footslogging. So why don't you have Grey Hunters again?

TheMostWize wrote:I am just starting to get into Space Wolves and I am curious why everyone writes Blood Claws off as being terrible is the 4 attacks a piece on the charge not worth it? I can see how good Grey Hunters are but would it be a bad idea to run at least one 10 man squad of Blood Claws.

Primarily it's because Grey Hunters are very plainly undercosted. For their cost Blood Claws are not a bad unit just need to be used with some finesse. Grey Hunters however are ridiculously good for their cost, they get all the benefits of CSM's and SM's in one package with a 15% discount after kit and kaboodle, with the very powerful Counterattack on top.

The issues aren't so much with Blood Claws being bad, it's with Grey Hunters being way too capable and way too cheap, amounting to "Space Marines+1" at "Space Marines-1" prices.

Griever wrote:

Phil Kelly totally botched that. It makes me a little bit scared about Blizzard's attention to detail in writing codexes. It's obvious they can't/don't playtest their dexes well, because anybody can see Grey Hunters are just better in every single way.

Blizzard?

Griever wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:[b] I said stuff

Dude, they just assault stuff. What's so hard about that? They trade WS 4 for 1 attack ON THE CHARGE. That's barely a CC buff, and they're much worse in shooting, can't take as much melta, need a character not to be total crap, and can't take Wolf Banners. Not to mention WS makes them easier to kill in combat since your opponent gets more hits, hell even Orks have WS4. They should be cheaper than Grey Hunters. Realistically Grey Hunters should be about 2 more points per model and Blood Claws should be WS4 and possibly 1 point cheaper.
Phil Kelly totally botched that. It makes me a little bit scared about Blizzard's attention to detail in writing codexes. It's obvious they can't/don't playtest their dexes well, because anybody can see Grey Hunters are just better in every single way.

Yes they Assault Stuff, that’s there job. They still hit WS4 on 4+, with the Wolf Priest, you get to Re-Roll all of those 1s of witch half will hit.

Simple Math Hammer
I Assault with 15 Blood Claws, that’s 60 Attack, 75 If Ragnar has his way.

So 60 Attacks, that 30 Hits and 10 1’s, of these 10 1s 5 will hit, making 35 Hits.
17 Wounds and about 5 1s, those 1s become 3 more wounds. You opponent now has to make 20 saves.
Vs. Orks that’s 14+ Dead Orks. That’s better than what Grey Hunters can do.

Why are you giving them Melta-Guns, they are not Anti-Tank, that what Grey Hunters are for.

If they have a Wolf Priest, they don’t need Wolf Banners.

Also if you can get them on an objective, they become hard to push of with 16+ Models and Counter Attack.

Yes they should be Cheaper than Grey Hunters, but you can still make them work. I am not saying they are the best, but they are not the worst. They can be made a though durable unit that many armies will not want to assault of the 1st time. Remember with a Wolf Pries, they can Re-Roll all of those 1s you roll for your Overwatch Shots and the 1s on the 2d3 Flamer Wounds.

Wolf Standard rerolls armour saves though and work in all circumstances (MC, bikes, calvary, ...). Most combat is done in 2 rounds and the Wolf Priest will usually die in those 2 rounds.

However, I agree with Anpu42. Bloodclaws have their place. Use them selectively.

Its all about design philosophy.

When I made my SW army I wanted to run a landraider crusader. It was going into the list. Period.

So why not put something into it. Blood claws are the perfect option. You get to use the whole carrying capacity of the tank. Since BCs are such bad shots, the fact that you can't shoot out of the LR makes that a moot point. The shooting waste would be a bunch of BS5 guys in the tank - for example.

The point is, yes, the unit as a whole becomes very expensive. But you have to think of it as a tank and a squad. Lose one or the other and you still have something (unless you get hit by a boxcars from an ork shock attack gun :p )


Ragnar is actually not a good idea to put with BCs. While the FC is nice, your wasting his +d3 attacks on the assault 2/3 of the time. Ragnar belongs with GH or WG packs, where the bonus attacks are really a bonus and the FC makes up for lower number of attacks when compared to a full BC squad.

So the consensus seems to be. Big squad armed to the max or not at all? I guess all I can do is try it out and see how I like them. My gaming group does not power game we play because the game is fun and there are endless possibilities for it.

Anpu42 wrote:Yes they should be Cheaper than Grey Hunters, but you can still make them work. I am not saying they are the best, but they are not the worst.

Of the 2 troops choices in the Codex, they are clearly inferior, and therefore technically the worst. I agree though, Blood Claws aren't necessarily bad, but they're far less flexible than Grey Hunters, and the only way to make them good is to sink far too many points into them.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:Yes they should be Cheaper than Grey Hunters, but you can still make them work. I am not saying they are the best, but they are not the worst.

Of the 2 troops choices in the Codex, they are clearly inferior, and therefore technically the worst. I agree though, Blood Claws aren't necessarily bad, but they're far less flexible than Grey Hunters, and the only way to make them good is to sink far too many points into them.

That and you have to build the list around them; they are not something you just tack on. I usually take two Packs with a Wolf Priest for each. Then I start adding units to the list depending on what I am going for. Usually I add some Skyclaws and Swift Claws each also lead by Wolf Priest, and my two Lone Wolves and start the game by yelling WAAAAG!

Lol I like that... load up on combat units and charge as fast as possible... I guess there are only two possible outcomes you die by turn 4 or your opponent dies by turn 4 either way there will be death.

Blood claws on bikes are pretty good.

Jayden63 wrote:
Ragnar is actually not a good idea to put with BCs. While the FC is nice, your wasting his +d3 attacks on the assault 2/3 of the time. Ragnar belongs with GH or WG packs, where the bonus attacks are really a bonus and the FC makes up for lower number of attacks when compared to a full BC squad.

Ragnar is actually a good idea for blood claws since FAQ states that with blood claws his +d3 attachs cant get below 2 making his ability more controllable, however, he is rather useless now with nerf to his frostblade and initiative from FC



and to all here.
Am I the only one who play with people who have a difficulty in killing of a wolf priest + termie + 15 PA boddies that runs at them? Seriously with the new look out sir and wound allocation I have fielded

11 Blood claws (flamers, Lucas)
Wolf priest
Terminator combiplasma + wolf claw

to a great success. running them like crazy shortes possible route towards an enemy makes his priority a bit off, and he forgets to kill of the missile spam in fear that the blood claws can reach his precious lord

I find Terminators with Blood Claws [or Grey Hunters] can be a hindrance. It would deny you your Sweeping Advance. You would be just as good in power Armor with a Power Weapon and a Bolt Pistol.

Anpu42 wrote:I find Terminators with Blood Claws [or Grey Hunters] can be a hindrance. It would deny you your Sweeping Advance. You would be just as good in power Armor with a Power Weapon and a Bolt Pistol.

but you cant tank with the 2+ save. You cant have a challenge beast with a 2+/5++save. The terminator armor is also so cheap. 33 points and you get a sergeant with a 2+/5++ and a power weapon. Most codexs can barely get a barebones 3+ chainsword character for 33 points.