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So, now wolf guard are listed as characters in the back of the rule book. If they are characters even if they don't break off using their pack leaders rules (still being debated here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/461044.page and here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/461392.page) I believe this would mean that they cannot select the same war-gear combination as other characters, including other wolf guard by the rule on the bottom of page 81 of the space wolf codex.

...no two characters can bear the same saga, nor can they bear the same psychic powers or wargear combination.

This would mean that units of non-upgraded wolf guard are no longer possible and certain strategies, such as spamming combi-plasma, more difficult.

Do you think that this is correct if are characters even if they don't break off of to lead packs?

This would mean that while, wolf guard gain advantages of characters they would have a more restricted selection of wargear, perhaps limiting there usefulness.
Additionally this would give each wolf guard more character (as they all have different wargear) which fits well from a fluff perspective.

I think you have to be being intentionally obtuse to claim that Wolf Guard in their normal packs, and not split off to lead others, are characters, that being said...

Yes, if you play that a unit of wolf guard are all characters, they may not have the same wargear combination as one another, or as any other characters in the army.

I'm not particularly sold on the Idea that there are supposed to be counted as characters, but others had been talking about it, and I thought this would be one the consequences of playing that way that no one has mentioned.

If the new FAQ calls Wolf Guard characters, they're characters. Chaos terminator champions are characters, no matter how many in the unit, I believe Crypteks and Necron Lords are characters, as are Nobz. So I would assume that all laws that apply to lords apply to Wolf Guard. Including the rules of uniqueness. However, common sense says this makes it so you can't have more than, what, ten-fifteen of them in your entire army? It's a seriously limiting factor, but unless they FAQ it...sucks to be them :\ Unless the book says "independent characters" can't be tooled the same-then you're fine. They're characters, for ability bonuses, but not ICs for loadouts. Depends on how they're labeled.

yes, Crypteks, Necron Lords, Nobz are listed as characters as are grey night paladins. Can paladins act as squad leaders like the others? I'm not very familiar with them.

In the rule for uniqueness the codex says characters, not independent characters.

your point about uniqueness limiting the number that one could field isn't true however, as the wolf guard have a lot of options, even with Logan Grimnar making them troops the shouldn't be a problem with being able to field the maximum amount, 60. Although it might limit the usefulness of such units.

Drunkspleen wrote:I think you have to be being intentionally obtuse to claim that Wolf Guard in their normal packs, and not split off to lead others, are characters, that being said...

Yes, if you play that a unit of wolf guard are all characters, they may not have the same wargear combination as one another, or as any other characters in the army.

You should drop through in the second thread linked by him that I started. I am the only one in it who thinks it is possible to interpret rules/intention for them to only be characters when split off, rather then at all times.

Regardless, it would seem that even separating them and giving them all the same combi-weapon can't be spammed like it was in the last edition.

Very interesting...

If you want to have more than 4 of the same type of combi weapon starts to become expensive. for example you could have:

one with
a combi-weapon
one with
a combi-weapon, bolt pistol
one with
a combi-weapon, cc weapon
one with
a combi-weapon, bolter

but any more than this and you would have to to buy war gear that costs more points, or a different combi-weapon

So its harder to spam, but not impossible.

I also just noticed that you could take two plasma pistols or a bolt pistol and a plasma pistol and make use of the new gunfighter rule

People are missing a key point about the Leaders of the Pack rule, that being that it only applies to Characters purchased in the HQ FOC slots, per the respective asterisks on the FOC layout on P81 of the Codex.

The Rule Leader of the Pack Refers to HQs [Pg. 81 Codex Space Wolves]. Wolf Guard Pack Leaders do not fall under the FOC HQ, therefore are not under the Subject the Rule: Leader of the Pack.

The FAQ Supports Beamo and Anpu42; 6th page of the FAQ, second Question asks for exact Clarification on the Leaders of the Pack Special rule.

The resulting Clarification First discusses where Sagas are found. It then tells us that: "no two HQ Characters, including Special characters, may have the exact same wargear and Weapons, even if they are different HQ units."

Emphasis mine.

Kommissar Kel wrote:The FAQ Supports Beamo and Anpu42; 6th page of the FAQ, second Question asks for exact Clarification on the Leaders of the Pack Special rule.

The resulting Clarification First discusses where Sagas are found. It then tells us that: "no two HQ Characters, including Special characters, may have the exact same wargear and Weapons, even if they are different HQ units."

Emphasis mine.

Which, by the argument being used to say all wolf guard are characters, has no bearing on the fact that wolfguards also can't have the same wargear and weapons, it just says HQ characters can't, that doesn't mean other people can.

This is an instance where you can't have your cake and eat it too, if you are using your strict RAW reading and ignoring the implications, there's no reason to suddenly consider things that are strongly implied but not supported by the RAW when it becomes a negative.

edit: Also of note regarding Anpu's argument, the fact that the rule is used to refer specifically to HQ choices at one point doesn't mean the other parts of the rules only apply to HQs unless written such that they do, for example, Pedro Kantor grants Sternguard a special rule, that doesn't mean when his Chapter Tactics also say that units get Stubborn instead of combat tactics that it only means Sternguard units.

RAW in this forum includes the FAQs.

FAQs write that "Leaders of the Pack" is exactly clarified as HQ Characters.

The Leaders of the Pack rule is written on page 81 with a Asterisk; that asterisk is also listed on the FOC(which is the whole of the boxout the Leaders of the Pack rule is written in) Meaning that the rule applies only to the Asterisked slots(HQ).

The subject of the Leaders of the Pack rule is established in the first paragraph as HQ units; the Second paragraph makes no indication it is deviating from that subject(especially when you take into account the last point).

Do you need any more RAW support?

All wolfguard are always Characters, Wolf Guard are only ever HQ Characters when they are Wolfguard Battle Leaders, which are not the same as Wolf Guard/Wolf guard Pack leaders.

Wolf guard Characters never have to abide by the Leaders of the Pack rule.

I think the FAQ is makes it pretty clear that the leaders of the pack rule applies to HQ units only, and therefore not wolf guard, Iron priests, Long fang, squad leaders or lone wolfs. I must have missed the "HQ characters" addition in the FAQ on my read through a few days ago.
thanks Kommissar Kel

Kommissar Kel wrote:RAW in this forum includes the FAQs.

FAQs write that "Leaders of the Pack" is exactly clarified as HQ Characters.

The Leaders of the Pack rule is written on page 81 with a Asterisk; that asterisk is also listed on the FOC(which is the whole of the boxout the Leaders of the Pack rule is written in) Meaning that the rule applies only to the Asterisked slots(HQ).

The subject of the Leaders of the Pack rule is established in the first paragraph as HQ units; the Second paragraph makes no indication it is deviating from that subject(especially when you take into account the last point).

Do you need any more RAW support?

All wolfguard are always Characters, Wolf Guard are only ever HQ Characters when they are Wolfguard Battle Leaders, which are not the same as Wolf Guard/Wolf guard Pack leaders.

Wolf guard Characters never have to abide by the Leaders of the Pack rule.

Right, the FAQ also says Wolfguard become characters when they are detached from their squads and left to lead others, so they aren't characters when they are part of a Wolfguard unit.

Do you need any more RAW support?

Drunkspleen wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Said Stuff

Right, the FAQ also says Wolfguard become characters when they are detached from their squads and left to lead others, so they aren't characters when they are part of a Wolfguard unit.
Do you need any more RAW support?

Play it that way if you want, but relise that you are in a very small minority.

Anpu42 wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Said Stuff

Right, the FAQ also says Wolfguard become characters when they are detached from their squads and left to lead others, so they aren't characters when they are part of a Wolfguard unit.
Do you need any more RAW support?

Play it that way if you want, but relise that you are in a very small minority.

Having consistency with regards to whether I play by strict RAW or a more loose set of rules based on the implications of the FAQ makes me in a minority?

Geez, and here I still held out hope that people who pick and choose how to interpret these documents so as to get the most advantage for their models without any drawbacks were in the minority.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:RAW in this forum includes the FAQs.

FAQs write that "Leaders of the Pack" is exactly clarified as HQ Characters.

The Leaders of the Pack rule is written on page 81 with a Asterisk; that asterisk is also listed on the FOC(which is the whole of the boxout the Leaders of the Pack rule is written in) Meaning that the rule applies only to the Asterisked slots(HQ).

The subject of the Leaders of the Pack rule is established in the first paragraph as HQ units; the Second paragraph makes no indication it is deviating from that subject(especially when you take into account the last point).

Do you need any more RAW support?

All wolfguard are always Characters, Wolf Guard are only ever HQ Characters when they are Wolfguard Battle Leaders, which are not the same as Wolf Guard/Wolf guard Pack leaders.

Wolf guard Characters never have to abide by the Leaders of the Pack rule.

Right, the FAQ also says Wolfguard become characters when they are detached from their squads and left to lead others, so they aren't characters when they are part of a Wolfguard unit.

Do you need any more RAW support?

I have shown you the error of your ways in the other thread regarding the SW FAQ and when Wolf Guard become Wolf Guard Pack Leaders.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Right, the FAQ also says Wolfguard become characters when they are detached from their squads and left to lead others, so they aren't characters when they are part of a Wolfguard unit.

Do you need any more RAW support?

Wrong, that (in bold) is an unsupportable position. RAW Wolf Guard are characters because of the rulebook, and Wolf Guard Pack Leaders, who are not part of the BRB and so would NOT be cjaracters, ARE characters because of the FAQ.

If the FAQ was not there then WGPL would not be characters.