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Hey guys, I see that there's already a gth edition overall chaos thread going but I need a little more help than just the theorycrafting going on there. I just picked up a daemon army and I've been an ork player for about....4 months. Just to put it in perspective. That said I've never shot above BS 2 I've never had psychic powers or to even deep strike (well, I've tried zagstruk twice but..that's orky sillyness) anyway I'm not really sure what 6th holds for daemons. I keep reading that they got worse but certain parts of the army have gotten a lot better but pretty much if it can't shoot when it comes down is it not just going to be shot up and because of the resulting turns to follow you may NEVER get it into assault range? Most of the army (I'm looking at you slaanesh) have fleet and not being able to charge after fleeting kind of kills most of that and the hit and run can only get you so far away. Am I going to have to buy some CSM to make the army work? Is it even plausible to win with this army? There are just SO many variables to the army I can't see PLANNING anything. I mean icons make it somewhat safer to bring down troops but with reserve modifiers mishaps (I know it got buffed so you're a lot less likely to mishap but still...) to not even BRING in the units the entire game. The only god I see as being feasible is tzeentch and that's because of his shooting and psychic powers. I could MAYBE see pavane princes being able to lash things closer to you but with 6th armies are just going to put their parking brakes on and enjoy the shoot fest while you trickle in units.

I bought 3-4 extra princes with wings just so I could use them as MC I have a fateweaver like 12 bloodcrushers I have 8 fiends 16 plaguebearers 20 horrors 30 bloodletters 30 daemonettes Bloodthirtsters Chariot riding sorcerer's and 2 soul grinders and just tbh after everything I've read if I don't buy the 22 dollar a MODEL fiends I may as well pack my stuff up and go home. I'm just not seeing where this army's strength lies atm. I guess I'll have to start looking into buying some CSM so that I can have some scarey troops to go along with my DP and GD...sigh

Which I guess is my last question, if you were going to run CSM in a daemon list would it just be their normal troops or would you bring in some obliterators? (I know the new codex is coming out soon and it's probably better to just wait but I know that it's safe to buy somethings (mostly the PA marines atm) but I'm just kind of lost with this army and wondering if a pure daemon army even has a CHANCE to win...

Whoa, there are a lot of random thoughts here. The first thing I would do is read the codex cover to cover 2 or 3 times. Then cross reference with the Daemon special rules. For example, Daemons do not have psychic powers.

Daemons did take a hit on charge distances but they make it up alot with...

Terror - Nice buff for taking down hordes

Fearless - No longer suffer No Retreat saves

Pre-measuring - You can premeasue anything, so with some tables you can actually calculate the probability of a mishap pretty closely - also do not need to estimate charge distances

Wound Allocation - Look Out Sir enables allocation for Fiends and Crushers

Pavane - Huge boost in Utility

Flying Monstrous Creatures - I am not sure any codex has more of these than Daemons

Vehicle Weakening - Daemons can now tear vehicles apart in CC rather efficiently

The major hits they took are Furious Charge is weaker, Bloodletters cannot break through Terminator Armor and Random charges can leave you out in the open.

Feel free to check out my Blog for some other 6th edition thoughts - I do not think you need to ally anything into them and I would not ally CSM until their new codex in August.

The pre-measuring is huge for Daemons because we can really eliminate the chances of mishap. If there is a mishap the chances of having a unit destroyed is now half of what is used to be. The chances of getting reserve units in has increased, and if you get an Aegis Defense Line with a Comms Relay then your reserves are practically guaranteed to come in. Personally I stay away from the Landing Platform because you can get 3 icons for the same price that would cover a larger area.

I run CSM allies and I have been running plague marines and obliterators and they have worked great

Check out Calypso's blog. Most of it is 5th ed but there is some good info in there.

My thoughts on Daemons in 6th so far. I think they got a massive boost and there are very few poor unit choices.

http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/2012/07/welcome-to-6th-daemons.html#idc-container

Fiends are awesome, but you don't have to drop $22 a model. There are plenty of alternate conversions out there if you're willing to do even a tiny bit of work.

calypso2ts wrote:Whoa, there are a lot of random thoughts here. The first thing I would do is read the codex cover to cover 2 or 3 times. Then cross reference with the Daemon special rules. For example, Daemons do not have psychic powers.

Daemons did take a hit on charge distances but they make it up alot with...

Terror - Nice buff for taking down hordes

Fearless - No longer suffer No Retreat saves

Pre-measuring - You can premeasue anything, so with some tables you can actually calculate the probability of a mishap pretty closely - also do not need to estimate charge distances

Wound Allocation - Look Out Sir enables allocation for Fiends and Crushers

Pavane - Huge boost in Utility

Flying Monstrous Creatures - I am not sure any codex has more of these than Daemons

Vehicle Weakening - Daemons can now tear vehicles apart in CC rather efficiently

The major hits they took are Furious Charge is weaker, Bloodletters cannot break through Terminator Armor and Random charges can leave you out in the open.

Feel free to check out my Blog for some other 6th edition thoughts - I do not think you need to ally anything into them and I would not ally CSM until their new codex in August.

Sorry for the randomness lol I've probably read 500 pages concerning daemons and everything that has had 6th in it hasn't been good. I see the potential I love the models and the fluff but MAN people are negative lol.
A little more reading definitely won't hurt so are bloodletters as bad as people are saying? Would buying screamers or seekers be a good choice? Are heralds better than greater daemons?


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Also, why are fiends so good if you can't fleet and charge? (no sarcasm) I just see them as lackluster if I cant DS them fleet them knock the crap out of something ASAP

Buffs to fiends in 6th.

12" move, not it is much easier to move them around when not charging.

Change to fearless: you can lose combat now and really not care very much. In addition the change to fearless makes it much easier to hit and run.

The change to fleet(IMO) being able to re-roll bad run rolls when you deep strike is a pretty big deal and your average charge is about the same as it always was.

Move through cover changes allow them to ignore terrain, so no more dangerous terrain checks for deep striking into terrain.

They can climb ruins now

The new wound allocation as far as I can tell helps them in cc if your opponent has multiple Initiative steps.

It is easier to kill vehicles in cc now, and glances can kill.

With allies, you can actually now have more on the table to start with. If 25% of your army is CSM, only 25% is stuck in reserve past turn 1. It's actually quite a notable change.

Very true. My current Daemon army has IG allies, and you end up with quite a bit more on the table. The improvement to reserve rolls also makes a big difference as it is very easy to have nearly your whole army on the table turn 2.

Well, a combined Daemon and CSM army can be rather scary if you pick the best of both parts. Even more so when the new CSM codex comes out.

Kharrak wrote:With allies, you can actually now have more on the table to start with. If 25% of your army is CSM, only 25% is stuck in reserve past turn 1. It's actually quite a notable change.

How excally does this work?

CSM and Daemon can synergize very well by taking a shooty CSM force and combining it with an assault-based Daemon fraction. Any ideas here?

A pure Nurgle army would be possible. This has already been discussed elsewhere here at Dakka.

To the OP:

Daemons require balls. I'm not gonna bull ya mate- its one of the hardest armies to learn. It has a steep, steep learning curve. Even once you have a good grasp of it, you are still at the mercy of dice rolls (I know we all are, but other armies aren't at the mercy of dice rolls to place their models on the table to begin with!).

Having said that- It is challenging and HIGHLY rewarding to win as daemons. And you do a GREAT service to your local group- Daemons are not a terribly popular army, so by playing them you give other people a chance to fight daemons. Lets face it, they are an iconic warhammer army and bring alot of flavour.

My advice for you is to throw your ego out the window completely whilst you start playing daemons. Your gonna lose bud. This will lead to you learning what went wrong, what could have been better, and to recognize where bad OR good luck decided your game, OR your gonna throw a load of plastic, lead or shitecast out the window in a fit of rage.

I'd recommend winged MC's, as ours are the best hands down and they are terrifying. It's very easy to go overboard on daemon princes- the golden rule is forget all the bells and whistles, take what you need and not what you want. Fiends are a financially expensive powerhouse unit. Don't skimp out on troops in favour of monsters. Last but not least- don't believe everything on the net you read about daemons. I swear 90% comes from non-daemon players who talk from the other side of the table. Plague bearers for example- talked up again and again in every daemon thread as objective holders. I found them as useful for holding objectives as tits on a bull. Its just someones opinion on the net, you gotta test their ideas-have faith in the dark gods, not in the ideas of the internet

oh, and take this! You were right where you can't really plan with daemons. The plan is to flow with the battle

The elimination of Running and Assaulting has not actually shortened the maximum range of any Daemon assault units and it has lengthened some.

Not only does Fleet let you re-roll a run roll, it also dramatically changes the probability you will get the distance you need for a charge.

For example, without fleet the chance to charge 12" is about 2.8%

Here is the breakdown with fleet.

Initial Roll:
Odds to roll two 6's and achieve a 12" charge
1/36 = 2.8% - 12" charge

Odds to roll a single 6 is 1/6, to not roll a 6 on the other dice is 5/6 - this can happen for each dice, so multiply by 2
2 * 1/6*5/6 = 28% - exactly one 6

All other results have no 6s
1- (1/36 + 2*1/6*5/6) = 69% - no 6's

In the case of rolling two 6's we keep the result. In the case of rolling one 6, let's reroll the dice (although 11" charge is pretty good too1)

With one re-roll, there is a 1/6 chance for a 6 - multiply by the previous result and the chance to get to 12" is 4.7%

With both rerolled, the chance is again 1/36 =2.8%

Add all the chances together and a 12" charge will occur: 10.2% of the time. That is really not bad at all. The chance to get a 24" assault before from a Fleet roll was 16% so it does represent a drop but the odds start to increase significantly when you consider rerolls for 12" or 10" charges.

I am going to create a probability plot for both standard charges and Fleet enabled charges.

As for units - Screamers are better now, but I think Seekers remain absolutely awesome. They are fast, Rend, have a lot of attacks and with the addition of a herald can Hit and Run.

What are Bloodletter Hellblades called in their description?

If it just says they are PWs then you can model them with Swords, Axes, or Mauls to your preference(the old ones had axes) so you can deal with Terminators if you need to.

From the 6th Ed errata from GW site, Hellblades follow the rules for Power Swords. Codex trumps rulebook.


*edited to add errata link: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420308a_Chaos_Daemons_6th_Ed_V1.pdf

Yay GW for lying. You said you'd never invalidate any models ever again

Grey Templar wrote:What are Bloodletter Hellblades called in their description?

If it just says they are PWs then you can model them with Swords, Axes, or Mauls to your preference(the old ones had axes) so you can deal with Terminators if you need to.

I never really like Bloodletters in 5th, with the changes to Furious Charge and Hellblades I'm even less likely to use them now.

Plague bearers and Epidemus will be all the rage now. They can always take their FnP(due to EW) so they have 5+/5+ saves. Slightly better then a 4+ save.

And you can take PM allies, they're Nurgle units too right?

How did they invalidate any models? All Bloodletters come with Swords in the first place - which are spelled out. If you mean make models weaker, come on not every model can get better every time. I think overall, though, that Crushers and 'letters are still extremely strong - the change to AP 3 really only hurts them against a small group of models.

The old BL models had Axes. And since BLs have no way to get Axes legally the models are illegal from a WYSIWYG stand point.

calypso2ts wrote:How did they invalidate any models? All Bloodletters come with Swords in the first place - which are spelled out. If you mean make models weaker, come on not every model can get better every time. I think overall, though, that Crushers and 'letters are still extremely strong - the change to AP 3 really only hurts them against a small group of models.

Are you looking at it as "Fleet-oppenent's turn-charge" kind of thing? I will have some bloodletters they are still EXTREMELY nasty against everything except termies =)

I really do think taking some CSM allies would be cool or even some IG (I can't stand anything guard so mine will be CSM but still XD) I just wanted to run something close to

HQ
Fateweaver -is he worth it now?
LOC or BT - wing

3 Princes - wings MoT

Troops...I'm not sure about troops I like the looks of a couple horrors squads with changeling and now I hear big daemonette squads can be absolutely nasty (thank you hulksmash XD) It just seems like they made it so we have to take MC though...


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Jihallah wrote:To the OP:

Daemons require balls. I'm not gonna bull ya mate- its one of the hardest armies to learn. It has a steep, steep learning curve. Even once you have a good grasp of it, you are still at the mercy of dice rolls (I know we all are, but other armies aren't at the mercy of dice rolls to place their models on the table to begin with!).

Having said that- It is challenging and HIGHLY rewarding to win as daemons. And you do a GREAT service to your local group- Daemons are not a terribly popular army, so by playing them you give other people a chance to fight daemons. Lets face it, they are an iconic warhammer army and bring alot of flavour.

My advice for you is to throw your ego out the window completely whilst you start playing daemons. Your gonna lose bud. This will lead to you learning what went wrong, what could have been better, and to recognize where bad OR good luck decided your game, OR your gonna throw a load of plastic, lead or shitecast out the window in a fit of rage.

I'd recommend winged MC's, as ours are the best hands down and they are terrifying. It's very easy to go overboard on daemon princes- the golden rule is forget all the bells and whistles, take what you need and not what you want. Fiends are a financially expensive powerhouse unit. Don't skimp out on troops in favour of monsters. Last but not least- don't believe everything on the net you read about daemons. I swear 90% comes from non-daemon players who talk from the other side of the table. Plague bearers for example- talked up again and again in every daemon thread as objective holders. I found them as useful for holding objectives as tits on a bull. Its just someones opinion on the net, you gotta test their ideas-have faith in the dark gods, not in the ideas of the internet

oh, and take this! You were right where you can't really plan with daemons. The plan is to flow with the battle

Sir, I just want you to know that as an ork player my plastic men are the best and were made to win. My ego will allow no other grievances against my honor.

That said I was looking for an army I could paint to look amazing on the table (and let's be honest pink horrors are BEAUTIFUL ) I love the daemonettes and I love the bloodletters =) I just loved the chaos fluff I've been reading some of the omnibus's and I LOVE the iron warriors and the word bearer's grew on me. So my fall from a blood angel player has been a long one but now that I'm here I intend to put as many skulls on the skull throne as I can.

In the word bearer's omnibus "marduk" summons bloodletters from the corpse from one of the terminators in his honor guard and as they come into real space they almost turn on him...instead he wills them down the hallway screaming like banshee's after a tyranid hive which he can hear them still fighting some time later. Color me sold...

The old BL models had Axes. And since BLs have no way to get Axes legally the models are illegal from a WYSIWYG stand point.

That is only a problem if there is actually an option to take an Axe or not. My Keeper of Secrets has a sword - but none listed in the profiles. Does that make her invalid since she could never take swords? How about the Staff on a Lord of Change - that is never listed.

The only way it could be construed as invalid is if the option shifted form say, reaper autocannon to heavy flamer - where you clearly cannot have that equipment there.

Are you looking at it as "Fleet-oppenent's turn-charge" kind of thing?

Not sure what you mean here - you can still run, you just cannot charge after it...

calypso2ts wrote:

The old BL models had Axes. And since BLs have no way to get Axes legally the models are illegal from a WYSIWYG stand point.

That is only a problem if there is actually an option to take an Axe or not. My Keeper of Secrets has a sword - but none listed in the profiles. Does that make her invalid since she could never take swords? How about the Staff on a Lord of Change - that is never listed.

The only way it could be construed as invalid is if the option shifted form say, reaper autocannon to heavy flamer - where you clearly cannot have that equipment there.

Are you looking at it as "Fleet-oppenent's turn-charge" kind of thing?

Not sure what you mean here - you can still run, you just cannot charge after it...

I guess what I mean is,
Turn 1 they DS in. You want to keep them a fair distance away so they don't get shot to pieces. Turn 2 they fleet to get close to charge...but they can't charge. Wouldn't this leave them out in the open to get shot to pieces?

Gharron wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:

The old BL models had Axes. And since BLs have no way to get Axes legally the models are illegal from a WYSIWYG stand point.

That is only a problem if there is actually an option to take an Axe or not. My Keeper of Secrets has a sword - but none listed in the profiles. Does that make her invalid since she could never take swords? How about the Staff on a Lord of Change - that is never listed.

The only way it could be construed as invalid is if the option shifted form say, reaper autocannon to heavy flamer - where you clearly cannot have that equipment there.

Are you looking at it as "Fleet-oppenent's turn-charge" kind of thing?

Not sure what you mean here - you can still run, you just cannot charge after it...

I guess what I mean is,
Turn 1 they DS in. You want to keep them a fair distance away so they don't get shot to pieces. Turn 2 they fleet to get close to charge...but they can't charge. Wouldn't this leave them out in the open to get shot to pieces?

Turn 1 you DS in, run into cover/hiding range. If you run to get into charge range, you likely are in charge range to begin with. 2D6 charge with reroll.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Gharron wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:

The old BL models had Axes. And since BLs have no way to get Axes legally the models are illegal from a WYSIWYG stand point.

That is only a problem if there is actually an option to take an Axe or not. My Keeper of Secrets has a sword - but none listed in the profiles. Does that make her invalid since she could never take swords? How about the Staff on a Lord of Change - that is never listed.

The only way it could be construed as invalid is if the option shifted form say, reaper autocannon to heavy flamer - where you clearly cannot have that equipment there.

Are you looking at it as "Fleet-oppenent's turn-charge" kind of thing?

Not sure what you mean here - you can still run, you just cannot charge after it...

I guess what I mean is,
Turn 1 they DS in. You want to keep them a fair distance away so they don't get shot to pieces. Turn 2 they fleet to get close to charge...but they can't charge. Wouldn't this leave them out in the open to get shot to pieces?

Turn 1 you DS in, run into cover/hiding range. If you run to get into charge range, you likely are in charge range to begin with. 2D6 charge with reroll.

Is there something that allows daemons to move when they come on the board? as far as I can tell you're going to want to put them as far away from the enemy as possible and charging with most daemons just didn't seem...ideal

Gharron wrote:
I guess what I mean is,
Turn 1 they DS in. You want to keep them a fair distance away so they don't get shot to pieces. Turn 2 they fleet to get close to charge...but they can't charge. Wouldn't this leave them out in the open to get shot to pieces?

I see what you are saying - actually the assault distances for Fiends are fairly comparable other than that rogue double snake eyes type roll due to fleet. I did the math in another thread, but generated a plot on the new charge distances versus the old posted here.

The relevant one for this (this is an initial plot I need to enumerate the whole space for fleet in MatLab since Excel is a bit ponderous at 6^4 combinations.

So after they fleet they can charge then?

Fleet is different. It allows you to reroll your Run or your Charge dice.