Had to happen sooner or later...

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**Shotgun**

http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=53&art_id=3379

Battlefront only at BF events. Guess if I go to one it will be Germans or Finns only.

**infinite_array**

Oh come the feth on, Battlefront! What the hell is this gak?!

You know, I was going to make a big purchase for my Germans, all BF stuff, to support the minis I had just gotten from PSC.

I think I'll put a hold on that, and work on my CoE Romans and British.

**RatBot**

If you want to play at our events and support the FOW hobby

FOW hobby

FOW hobby

On the one hand, I can understand them wanting people to use only their miniatures at their official events... on the other hand, from what I've heard, they've been becoming very GWish over the years... and then there's the above quote.

Perhaps I should remove this game from my List Of Games To Check Out At Some Point. Or at the very least only buy 3rd party minis if/when I do get around to trying it.

**infinite_array**

Ugh... good (and horribly, horribly bad) spot there, Ratbot.

RatBot wrote:
Perhaps I should remove this game from my List Of Games To Check Out At Some Point. Or at the very least only buy 3rd party minis if/when I do get around to trying it.

I suppose the thing here is to remember that, if you never play at their events, and never intend to (I did want to get out to some, eventually) it's not as big a deal... yet.

It's a small step down the slippery slope to the FoW HHHobby, though.

**RatBot**

Indeed, and it's sad... Also, it looks like they're taking loads of cues from GW... glancing at the FoW army builder files and the kits on their site, it looks like a 1500 to 2000 point FoW army costs about as much as a 1500 to 2000 point WHFB/WH40K army, which seems madness to me; surely, surely there are loads and loads of manufacturers who produce more reasonably priced 15mm (or whatever scale FoW is) WW2 miniatures?

**infinite_array**

Dozens upon dozens!

Peter Pig, Forged In Battle, Plastic Soldier Company (which my Panzer Lehr relies heavily on), Old Glory, Quick Reaction Force, Essex Miniatures, Gaming Models (which, ok, ain't exactly pretty, but they're dirt cheap!), and plenty more.

**Palindrome**

RatBot wrote:Indeed, and it's sad... Also, it looks like they're taking loads of cues from GW... glancing at the FoW army builder files and the kits on their site, it looks like a 1500 to 2000 point FoW army costs about as much as a 1500 to 2000 point WHFB/WH40K army, which seems madness to me; surely, surely there are loads and loads of manufacturers who produce more reasonably priced 15mm (or whatever scale FoW is) WW2 miniatures?

Battlefront are comprised of former GW employees and to be honest they have been following the GW model since they started, the FoW 'hobby' is a term that BF have been using for a while.

This is almost certainly a reaction to PSC who a probably doing a lot of damage to BF's tank sales. It won't change my behaviour at all though given that I don't play in tournaments.

**Big P**

Are you really surprised?

Given the losses they must be taking due to PSC and FiB, this is there only way to try and control a historical market that reacts against attempts at 'domination' like this.

Bad move. They should try and challenge the lower cost producers on price, instead they tread the GW route...

Given what I hear of their tactics on the trade seen, seems par for the course.

**infinite_array**

I suppose the best hope comes from the FoW forums - the move is being universally criticized by the community.

Again, ugh. Gonna make a blog post to refine all the thoughts I've got on this. It's a sad day for the FoW community.

**Big P**

Good.

I hope FOW players dont allow themselves to be bullied into such a move.

**RatBot**

What I don't understand is how Battlefront got away with charging these prices for so long.

I mean, I can understand how GW and PP can have super pricy models; their models are based on their own IP, and there aren't boatloads of alternative models for them, but WW2 Models? There's gakloads and gakloads of them from zillions of manufacturers.

EDIT because HURR HURR THERE THEIR

**d-usa**

RatBot wrote:What I don't understand is how Battlefront got away with charging these prices for so long.

I mean, I can understand how GW and PP can have super pricy models; their models are based on their own IP, and their aren't boatloads of alternative models for them, but WW2 Models? There's gakloads and gakloads of them from zillions of manufacturers.

I think their only real justification is that the models you get come packaged to comply with their army lists. When you buy a platoon of infantry you get the exact amount of models you need, all the weapon options you need, all the bases you need, etc..

So buying Battlefront could be "easier" than putting together stuff from 3rd party folks. And all your infantry will match up pretty nicely. But other than that I don't really have a good answer.

Anywho, glad I only invested $150 in the game so far, will have to reconsider if I really want to start playing GWW2.

**Big P**

But thats the whole point of historical gaming...

You are not restricted to one company like GW.

There are loads of different options for vehicles, figures and rules in a variety of scales.

Attempting a 'its my ball and you cant play with it attitude' would seem to be a very silly way of building support and encouragement for Battlefront products.

Still its their decision.

I doubt their competition will go away very soon, and I cant see this doing much other than shooting themselves in the foot.

Of course... It may make people look at other rules, ones that are less prescriptive of what toys you use... Like Battlegroup Kursk from PSC for example...

**Cwen**

Big P wrote:

Attempting a 'its my ball and you cant play with it attitude' would seem to be a very silly way of building support and encouragement for Battlefront products.

This is exactly the reason myself and plenty of my friends decided to stop collecting GW stuff.

Based on the reaction on the forums this seems to be a shared feeling.

Hopefully they will realise the mistake.

But I doubt it. Like they say, it is a business after all.

**General Seric**

Though this does not affect me (as I don't play in tournaments), it still makes me sad to see them make such a GW like move.

I am not going to stop playing FoW though, as I still like the rules and it is the most played in my area. Beyond their terrible policies, GW drove me away with their bland and weak rule set, but I greatly enjoy the rules for FoW (and I doubt many other 15mm rule sets have Italians in them).

d-usa wrote:
RatBot wrote:What I don't understand is how Battlefront got away with charging these prices for so long.

I mean, I can understand how GW and PP can have super pricy models; their models are based on their own IP, and their aren't boatloads of alternative models for them, but WW2 Models? There's gakloads and gakloads of them from zillions of manufacturers.

I think their only real justification is that the models you get come packaged to comply with their army lists. When you buy a platoon of infantry you get the exact amount of models you need, all the weapon options you need, all the bases you need, etc..

So buying Battlefront could be "easier" than putting together stuff from 3rd party folks. And all your infantry will match up pretty nicely. But other than that I don't really have a good answer.

Anywho, glad I only invested $150 in the game so far, will have to reconsider if I really want to start playing GWW2.

It is also harder to find other ranges than FoW miniatures in hobby stores, so many of the sales can also come from their availability in game stores.

There are also some factions that many other manufacturers don't make complete ranges for, like Italians (Old Glory has a range of Italians, but they are quite hideous). Some of the equipment for Italy is only available from BF.

Some of the rarer units are also harder to find from other manufacturers, like anti-aircraft vehicles and odd things like Lancia da 90/53s.

**chaos45**

Wow....this is a bad choice....I know most of my Armies are a heavy mix of both Battlefront and non-battlefront stuff.

This is extremely disappointing.....

**orkboy232**

As disappointed as I am with this move by battlefront, in reality it doesn't overly affect me. I've yet to see an official battlefront tournament anywhere near me, and even if there was chances are I wouldn't be going. That said though it really does seem like a stupid move

**kenshin620**

And people already complain that FoW is the 40k of historicals...

Though thankfully FoW doesnt have their own stores or anything. Friendly games will still be friendly. Tournaments on the other hand....do you think TO's can set their own rules?

**LuciusAR**

This doesn’t really affect me as I’m not really a tournament player, nevertheless this really does strike me as a rather mean spirited move on BF’s behalf.

I guess the main motivator is the fact that the competition isn’t just a minor factor any more. 2 years ago the only other companies that produced significant lines of WW2 stuff in 15mm where Skytrex/Old Glory and Peter Pig. Now new companies are popping up that are seriously giving BF a run for their money in terms of both quality and price.

Forged in Battle for example produce superior infantry to BF (IMHO) which require far less cleanup work and are only about ¾ of the price. PSC are obviously far cheaper than BF in terms of their vehicles you can't tell the difference until you pick them up.

**infinite_array**

The responses from the Battlefront guys sort of feel... insulting.

**combat engineer**

And that reply woud be?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
While I do not play in the tournament scene, and get my BF models a bit cheaper from WS, I understand the anger from other FoW players. I am not surprised by the move from the company, as I'm sure they're loosing cash hand over fist to other 15mm WWII model makers. This, in my opinion, is not the way to accomplish anything except drive dedicated fans away from the game and seeing FoW tournaments die off. Sad day...

**col. krazy kenny**

Well, this does not surprise any.Since i do not and will not play in any tournaments.I prefer the friendly Garage games were i can eat,drink,and cuss.With no children around sorry...
As for my collection i prefer the Battlefront infantry which are not that badly priced if you get them for a discount or buy second from Ebay.As for the PSC stuff.i do own a few of the sets but i do buy the BAttlefront Command vehicles and the occasional single to bring the kits up to squad strength.
But i do understand the stance that they are making too.especially if they are losing alot of money and the other tourney players are complaing about the 3rd party models.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, this does not surprise any.Since i do not and will not play in any tournaments.I prefer the friendly Garage games were i can eat,drink,and cuss.With no children around sorry...
As for my collection i prefer the Battlefront infantry which are not that badly priced if you get them for a discount or buy second from Ebay.As for the PSC stuff.i do own a few of the sets but i do buy the BAttlefront Command vehicles and the occasional single to bring the kits up to squad strength.
But i do understand the stance that they are making too.especially if they are losing alot of money and the other tourney players are complaing about the 3rd party models.

**chaos45**

I have been to alot of tournaments including attending after events like dinner with attendees an such. I have not once heard a fellow player complain about non-BF minis.

Ive heard people mention unpainted/silver surfer issues but never complaints about who made the minis.

I think this is something BF invented to sound good.

**SoloFalcon1138**

So, when will the FOW players rage-quit over this and defect to another system?

**kenshin620**

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:So, when will the FOW players rage-quit over this and defect to another system?

Well that depends on how many of them are tourny goers. Casual players probably wont even pick up on this news in my mind.

Though PSC's new system came in such a timely manner

**infinite_array**

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:So, when will the FOW players rage-quit over this and defect to another system?

Who knows?

At the moment, I'll be adding to my Panzer Lehr by using Forged in Battle and PSC. Since it's already an illegal force in Battlefront-events, there's no reason not to just keep going.

If we start seeing more measures like this being taken - like the new Rangers program which people are suspecting will help to push to 'Battlefront only' mindset beyond their tournaments - well, it's an open playing field. In most cases, I wouldn't have to do anything beyond spending $25-$45 to buy a new ruleset.

kenshin620 wrote:

Well that depends on how many of them are tourny goers. Casual players probably wont even pick up on this news in my mind.

Over on the FoW forum, there are plenty of people saying 'Well, I don't play in tournaments, but I definitely don't like the direction decisions like this are taking Battlefront'.

The main problem is this:

That's one of the head guys of Battlefront promising that what has just happened will never happen.

**Stoupe**

infinite_array wrote:The responses from the Battlefront guys sort of feel... insulting.

Just starting this game... Reading the responses from John-Paul. I actually found it insanely respectful and has me wanting to buy my second army bf only so that it could do the official tournaments. I think they are having amazing customer service right now.

**George Spiggott**

Well if I ever went to official BF tournaments I would be forced to stop now. Stupid and short sighted BF.

Re: John-Paul's post. If BF went ahead and made a better T-34 kit that was better value than the PSC one then that would be a very good thing.

**Stoupe**

combat engineer wrote:And that reply woud be?

Posted By John-Paul on 12 Jul 2012 10:04 PM
If I was a child and wanted to hold my breath I would not be letting people run around on our forum spouting such utter nonsense but deleting their posts and banning their accounts but that would be childish and serve no real purpose as I prefer to read what is said and then comment when I feel the need.

If Flames Of War is not creating our own IP I dont know what is and I know that Pete, Phil, Wayne, Evan and the guys would disagree as they have spent the last ten years of their lives dedicated to creating a hobby that is the heart of our business and completely unique. FOW is what drives the WWII 15mm gaming community and has done for many years and despite other manufacturers of models it was never any more than just another historical scale before FOW came along. If supporting your hobby involves you changing sides every time a business decision upsets you I would ask anybody who enjoyed their free copy of 3rd edition to speak up and say that we behaved like GW. Stand up and tell me that we are like any other company and I will give you five exmaples where we have proven time and again we are not. We are simply making a choice for our own events and even if you disagree you should respect us for the right to do so as just like giving away the rules free to over 50,000 people this year the same people made that choice so we cant be as bad as some of you would make out.

The problem is that the vocal few with more opinion than understanding would make it sound like this effects the entire hobby. You are wrong. Competitive gaming is a part of our hobby and we support it becasue we want to help that part grow but 90+% of all gamers are casual players who play in stores and at friends houses and never particpate in a tournament. These are the core of our business and despite some posters in this thread claiming to "know" this is a small issue effecting a gorup of players who however vocal are not the only gamers in the hobby.

Despite it being unwise to comment on this thread it is hard to read personal attacks on yourself and your team without feeling a little hurt and whilst I should not defend our choice more as it will just give some of you more fuel to bleat I stand by what I say. Try and look at the big picture, remember who we are, what we have done and how FOW got here and then just decide if that is your hobby or not as you shoud want to support your hobby and if this or any other decison we make has you changing your mind then we wish you all the best and thank you for your business but we will still be here doing our best and behaving the way we always have.

Bf forums regarding this decision.

**ancientsociety**

Insulting puts it mildly.

The fact that the article and JP's reply (buried around pg 8 of the FOW forum discussion) specifically state "the FOW Hobby" is a MASSIVE insult to the entire historical gaming industry and community who's support has made FOW such a success. BF seems to have forgotten that, early on, their "competitors" were produced lots of minis they were unable or unwilling to produce.

As far as JP's assertion that they have created "their own IP", that's nonsense. This isn't the universe GW created for WFB/40K; you can't assert IP over real-life history.

I won't be quitting FOW, but I am going to stop buying their products until this hare-brained decision is reversed.