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About #3., GW and armybuilder are not best friends now at the moment.

Well GW and a website that hosted AB files aren't the best of friends, AB itself is still going.

Army builder isn't very good anyway

Palindrome wrote:

Makarov wrote:
Fair enough. But, my other point still stands. I will in fact add to it

List of things that BF does/did that GW doesn't do or wouldn't do

-Allow 3rd party manufactures to exist (I admit WW 2 is public domain, but I still argue this point)
-Allow people to use their name/logos/etc.
-Allow Army builder/battlescribe to use represent their product
-Allow easyarmy.com to exist
-Come up with free force lists and give them out on their website
-Allow older force lists to still be legal
-Gives away free main rulebooks
-Gave a way free blisters if you got your rulebook spiral bound and emailed them a picture of the receipt and a explication

1. There is quite literally nothing that BF could do to stop other manufactuers making WWII miniatures. Nothing. They still exist and you can buy from them. Last time I checked I can't say the same for my IG. Also at the end of the day if you get really pissed at their policies and decide to stop buying from them, you could just by 3rd party minis and still play the game casually.
2. OK, although alot of their logos are public domain as well. GW has a habit of suing people for using the term 40k. For example they sent a cease and desist order to 40k Radio for using their name
3. OK, but so do GW. GW is currently suing army builder.
4. I wonder for how much longer?They still exist and are allowed to exit.
5. OK
6. Older BF lists, while still usable, are significantly under powerered compared to newer lists. Are old GW codices actually illegal? Yes they are.
7. My 'free' rulebook fell apart before I had even read it once.[color=red]Have you receive a free physical rulebook from GW/ PP/any other company[color]
8. I didn't know about that.

BF have always been the GW of historicals; initially that was a good thing but over the last couple of years they have started to emulate GW's bad points as well.

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Palindrome wrote:Well GW and a website that hosted AB files aren't the best of friends, AB itself is still going.

Army builder isn't very good anyway

Don't forget battlescribe as well

LMAO.

"Allow 3rd party manufactures to exist"

Sorry, but I cant believe you made that point.

You do know people made WW2 figures before Battlefront came along...?

You can argue all you like that WW2 isnt public domain, but unfortunately, you would be talking b0ll0cks.

I suspect the only man able to sue, would be Ferdinand Porsche...

Big P wrote:LMAO.

"Allow 3rd party manufactures to exist"

Sorry, but I cant believe you made that point.

You do know people made WW2 figures before Battlefront came along...?

You can argue all you like that WW2 isnt public domain, but unfortunately, you would be talking b0ll0cks.

I suspect the only man able to sue, would be Ferdinand Porsche...

I never said they owned it, I said very clearly at the top in relation to GW, and seeing as how in GW doesn't allow 3rd party manufacturer to exist. Also what about all the other points?

No idea about the rest, I dont play FOW or GW games.

The point is they cannot do anything about other makers as they did not 'create' WW2 like GW created their background.

Like I posted for the third time BF doesn't own ww2. I have stated that as well. But, you can still buy 3rd party minis, last time I checked PP/GW/Mantic/etc. don't let that happen.

Makarov wrote:Like I posted for the third time BF doesn't own ww2. I have stated that as well. But, you can still buy 3rd party minis, last time I checked PP/GW/Mantic/etc. don't let that happen.

They're not really 3rd party minatures, they are just minatures from other companies. They'd be 3rd party if they were models made by other companies based on the IP of BF to be used expressly in their games. They are not, they are 15mm WWII models which happens to be the same scale used by FOW.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Makarov wrote:Like I posted for the third time BF doesn't own ww2. I have stated that as well. But, you can still buy 3rd party minis, last time I checked PP/GW/Mantic/etc. don't let that happen.

They're not really 3rd party minatures, they are just minatures from other companies. They'd be 3rd party if they were models made by other companies based on the IP of BF to be used expressly in their games. They are not, they are 15mm WWII models which happens to be the same scale used by FOW.

Look we are impasse ok, I am not going to convert you nor you me on this point.

Makarov wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:

Makarov wrote:Like I posted for the third time BF doesn't own ww2. I have stated that as well. But, you can still buy 3rd party minis, last time I checked PP/GW/Mantic/etc. don't let that happen.

They're not really 3rd party minatures, they are just minatures from other companies. They'd be 3rd party if they were models made by other companies based on the IP of BF to be used expressly in their games. They are not, they are 15mm WWII models which happens to be the same scale used by FOW.

Look we are impasse ok, I am not going to convert you nor you me on this point.

You can still be at an impasse and be wrong.

infinite_array wrote:

Makarov wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:

Makarov wrote:Like I posted for the third time BF doesn't own ww2. I have stated that as well. But, you can still buy 3rd party minis, last time I checked PP/GW/Mantic/etc. don't let that happen.

They're not really 3rd party minatures, they are just minatures from other companies. They'd be 3rd party if they were models made by other companies based on the IP of BF to be used expressly in their games. They are not, they are 15mm WWII models which happens to be the same scale used by FOW.

Look we are impasse ok, I am not going to convert you nor you me on this point.

You can still be at an impasse and be wrong.

Fine I'm wrong, what about the 8 other points?

But your point is utterly flawed.

You seem to think that someone making 15mm WW2 figures is encroaching on BF's trademark when that is utterly impossible.

WW2 is not BF's design, thus people making 15mm WW2 figures are not 3rd party manufacturers, but simply manufacturers who in several cases pre-date BF.

Big P wrote:But your point is utterly flawed.

You seem to think that someone making 15mm WW2 figures is encroaching on BF's trademark when that is utterly impossible.

WW2 is not BF's design, thus people making 15mm WW2 figures are not 3rd party manufacturers, but simply manufacturers who in several cases pre-date BF.

I never said it was, and I said several times that they don't own it since it is public domain. Also that we're at an impasse ,and maybe focus on the other 8 points.

The other points are irrelevant to me.

Makarov wrote:
Fine I'm wrong, what about the 8 other points?

7 other points, let's look at them:

-Allow people to use their name/logos/etc.
What names and logos? You mean the names and logos of the friggin actual units that fought in WWII? It's not like Battlefront made them up for gaks and giggles, you know.

-Allow Army builder/battlescribe to use represent their product
Ok. But so do plenty of other miniatures companies.

-Allow easyarmy.com to exist
Alright, I'll give you that.

-Come up with free force lists and give them out on their website
Again, a good point.

-Allow older force lists to still be legal
And makes their newer ones better.

-Gives away free main rulebooks
For a limited time. Other companies give out free rules, downloadable as PDF files. We'll put this in the neutral bin.

-Gave a way free blisters if you got your rulebook spiral bound and emailed them a picture of the receipt and a explication
Never, ever saw either an example or even a murmur of this. I remember them sending you something if you complained that your rulebook fell apart and you then had to pay to get it spiral bound in order to use it.

People have already commented on the other points. The one people have problems with is the one they are continuing to comment on. The one that I'm not exactly sure how you can consider to still be a point in your argument (such that it is), given it is utterly ludicrous.

infinite_array wrote:

Makarov wrote:
Fine I'm wrong, what about the 8 other points?

7 other points, let's look at them:

-Allow people to use their name/logos/etc.
What names and logos? You mean the names and logos of the friggin actual units that fought in WWII? It's not like Battlefront made them up for gaks and giggles, you know.

Several groups as 40K radio have been sued for mentioning/talking about 40k. WWPD.net has for mentioning them and their game

-Allow Army builder/battlescribe to use represent their product
Ok. But so do plenty of other miniatures companies.

No GW is currently issued a cease and desist order to AB them,and is trying to get them closed down. As for battlescribe they also received one a few years back, any list that they have for 40k is "technically" not allowed
-Allow easyarmy.com to exist
Alright, I'll give you that.

-Come up with free force lists and give them out on their website
Again, a good point.

-Allow older force lists to still be legal
And makes their newer ones better.
In other games most of the older lists are rendered illegal once a newer one comes out.

-Gives away free main rulebooks
For a limited time. Other companies give out free rules, downloadable as PDF files. We'll put this in the neutral bin.
Yes several companies such as mantic have downloadable rules. But not full free physical rule books that they printed at a loss.

-Gave a way free blisters if you got your rulebook spiral bound and emailed them a picture of the receipt and a explication
Never, ever saw either an example or even a murmur of this. I remember them sending you something if you complained that your rulebook fell apart and you then had to pay to get it spiral bound in order to use it.

I also should mention that they edited their old books when there was fan complaint i.e. blitzkrieg sticker.




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SilverMK2 wrote:People have already commented on the other points. The one people have problems with is the one they are continuing to comment on. The one that I'm not exactly sure how you can consider to still be a point in your argument (such that it is), given it is utterly ludicrous.

Fine, I'm wrong about it.

Doesn't easyarmy.com pay a licensing fee to BF?

d-usa wrote:Doesn't easyarmy.com pay a licensing fee to BF?

I never thought they did. But, to be fair I don't know.

Makarov wrote:

d-usa wrote:Doesn't easyarmy.com pay a licensing fee to BF?

I never thought they did. But, to be fair I don't know.

If they do it does lessen the "goodwill" of BF "allowing" them to exist.

Not saying it is a bad decision, but licensing something out is different then letting people just do it.

I am happy BF does license it though.

It took a while, but I waded through 42 pages of BF Forum, and I think I can safely say they have well and truly proper dicked this one up. Mostly with the 'FOW Hobby' comment, and that arse who apparently works for them. I seem to recall that my main bugbear with the FOW/Maelstrom argument was not that the decision was right or wrong, but that the FOW man had sent a massively rude and unprofessional email that made him and his parent company look like dicks. It seems that BF have failed to rein in the people they hire from saying bloody stupid things in the light of that. I might just go and order a bucket-load of PSC entirely because these Corporate types have irked me with their silliness. When is this 'Kursk' book out exactly?


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I just clocked that 'We aren't going to lock the thread' became 'Thread Locked'.

Are BF related to the Coalition Government?

I am surprised it stayed open as long as it did.

Not just that one. They've binned anything remotely related to the subject as well.

Yeesh! That's quite the lockdown.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Not just that one. They've binned anything remotely related to the subject as well.

Even they even shutdown the support BF thread too. I'm guessing we are going to here an update another about all of this, this Thursday.

Be interesting to see if they can generate a climb-down, or a compromise. Maybe they'll put out a sticker?

I think even a "75% of models have to be BF" would have been a lot better received that this.

Releasing models to compete with Plastic Soldier would have been best.

You know, looking at that tournament/events list I don't think this matters outside the USA (& maybe England).

In the USA they seem to have fairly good coverage of states but elsewhere such as in Canada they have but one event.

I have looked at Flames of War as some friends play it, but the FoW event listed for Canada is Thousands of kilometers away from me on the other side of the country. It would have zero impact on me if I started playing the game.

Trolls gonna troll.

Makarov wrote:Like I posted for the third time BF doesn't own ww2. I have stated that as well. But, you can still buy 3rd party minis, last time I checked PP/GW/Mantic/etc. don't let that happen.

LOL. Love how you include Mantic in that. You are aware of their history right? Like the reason they became so successful was by producing good quality, cheaper units that could port easily into WFB/40K and by heavily marketing to the GW crowd. As a tournie organizer for games like Necromunda, I've seen it firsthand - I don't get prize support from GW, I get it from Mantic.

Makarov wrote:

infinite_array wrote:
Fine I'm wrong, what about the 8 other points?

7 other points, let's look at them:

-Allow people to use their name/logos/etc.
What names and logos? You mean the names and logos of the friggin actual units that fought in WWII? It's not like Battlefront made them up for gaks and giggles, you know.

Several groups as 40K radio have been sued for mentioning/talking about 40k. WWPD.net has for mentioning them and their game

40K Radio has never been sued by GW.

-Allow easyarmy.com to exist
Alright, I'll give you that.

-Come up with free force lists and give them out on their website
Again, a good point.

And easy army pays royalties to BF. This is why there are only a select few "book lists" that are free.

-Allow older force lists to still be legal
And makes their newer ones better.
In other games most of the older lists are rendered illegal once a newer one comes out.

Older lists are only "legal" in the sense that you can still use them in casual games when opposed by a similar "old list" or with opponent's consent. They are not tournament legal.

-Gives away free main rulebooks
For a limited time. Other companies give out free rules, downloadable as PDF files. We'll put this in the neutral bin.
Yes several companies such as mantic have downloadable rules. But not full free physical rule books that they printed at a loss.

DP9 is currently offering the PDFs of their Heavy Gear ruleset for free. Several other companies have also offered free rulebooks in the past as well.

Let's also not forget that, technically according to BF, to be eligible to receive the v3 rulebook, you already had to own a copy of v2 (though many retailers disregarded this).

-Gave a way free blisters if you got your rulebook spiral bound and emailed them a picture of the receipt and a explication
Never, ever saw either an example or even a murmur of this. I remember them sending you something if you complained that your rulebook fell apart and you then had to pay to get it spiral bound in order to use it.

Nope, nope, nope. This was pure internet conjecture.

I also should mention that they edited their old books when there was fan complaint i.e. blitzkrieg sticker.

Because they had gakked up the BAR rules so badly? Plenty of other companies do this as well (including GW).



As for your silly idea that BF "allows" other WW2 producers to exist, you need to understand that many of those "3rd party vendors" have been around decades longer than BF and were doing just fine financially before FOW was even an idea (and will most likely still be going strong long after BF is gone). For BF to call itself "the FOW hobby" and JP to state that they are "making an IP" (of WW2) is a huge slap in the face to the 15mm gaming industry as a whole since, when BF was just starting out, those competitors were already producing good quality minis that BF was unable or unwilling to produce itself. Heck, in many respects, they are still making minis that BF isn't.