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**Palindrome**

I think that this is probably one of the worst examples of wargaming snobbishness that I have seen for a while.

I will state that personally i am absolutely in the camp of i hate facing other miniatures for both tourney systems i play! and the smugness i get from players saying yes these only cost me x as though that is something to be proud of. ( this is not a battlefront point but mine.)

That was posted by John Paul (halfway down page 9).

I have already scaled back my BF purchases after the Maelstrom debacle and after this I will only buy critical rulebooks and anything that I can't satisfactoraily buy from other manufacturers. Its a short sighted move that will do them no good what so ever.

**Big P**

If Flames Of War is not creating our own IP I dont know what is

Ferdinand Porsche may have something to say about that.

Unbeliveable...

**Stoupe**

Maybe it's the gamer in me... Or maybe it's the fact that "historical" gaming has not appealed to me until FOW. But I disagree. They created a ruleset. The rules are thier IP. They can say in thier rules you have to use their miniatures in official tournaments. Cause they're paying for it (or atleast investing a portion into it). Was it a bad business decision? Maybe. Will attendance go down? Definately.

I don't know any company that does official tournaments like this that doesn't do this. If I walked up to a wmhd tourney with a demon prince converted to work like ethagrosh, I'd be laughed at.

They're not banning use from local tourneys and events. Even "GTs" could be run without them. Just if they're putting money into the GT expect this.

**George Spiggott**

Damn right. FoW is a ruleset, a very expansive one and one that I like very much. But it's noting more than that.

**SilverMK2**

If Flames Of War is not creating our own IP I dont know what is

The only thing I can think of is they created their rulesets etc based around the 15mm scale WWII, and so made 15mm scale WWII "what it is today" using their IP (the rules).

**infinite_array**

Palindrome wrote:I think that this is probably one of the worst examples of wargaming snobbishness that I have seen for a while.

I will state that personally i am absolutely in the camp of i hate facing other miniatures for both tourney systems i play! and the smugness i get from players saying yes these only cost me x as though that is something to be proud of. ( this is not a battlefront point but mine.)

That was posted by John Paul (halfway down page 9).

I have already scaled back my BF purchases after the Maelstrom debacle and after this I will only buy critical rulebooks and anything that I can't satisfactoraily buy from other manufacturers. Its a short sighted move that will do them no good what so ever.

Actually, that was posted by some other guy - 'JM' - and is on page 13.

The rest, I agree. I certainly wouldn't want to play a game with this guy,

**Palindrome**

infinite_array wrote:
Actually, that was posted by some other guy - 'JM' - and is on page 13.

The rest, I agree. I certainly wouldn't want to play a game with this guy,

So it was, still a staff member though and it is page 9 with my settings

Apparently 'JM' is the CEO.

**Big P**

Stoupe wrote: The rules are thier IP.

Actually rules mechanics are not generally covered by IP.

**Aldramelech**

I've been warning about BF's pretensions to be the next GW here for some time and got shouted down quite loudly too

I've seen this coming from a long way off.

The thing I find most annoying about this is "The FOW Hobby". There is no such bloody thing! There is WW2 Wargaming, there is the Hobby of Wargaming but BF do not own WW2 gaming in any way shape or form. WW2 Gaming was here when they were crapping on their hands and wiping it on their faces and will be here long after they've gone.

**Mezmaron**

I can understand why they did this. Won't affect me at all, since I play at home and have no plans to play in a sanctioned tournament.

BF has a problem. WW2 is public domain. BF is very different from GW - you will never see a 3rd party Tervigon for 40K (ok, so that's may be a bad example, but you get my overall point).

BF's problem is this - as a new player (I started in April with 3rd Edition) I've spent over $600 on FOW already (and have only played one test game). However, that $600 is split in these ways:

Crescent Root - $250 (Buildings)

Games Workshop - $35 (Gaming Mat)

Woodland Scenics - $75 (Trees)

PSC - $85 (Tanks)

Point of Contact - $50 (Tanks)

Wargames Factory - $25 (Infantry)

Wizards of the Coast - $20 (Planes)

Battlefront - $60 (Rulebooks)

I've only spent $60 (10%) of the entire FOW "hobby" with BF....

However, the fact that there are cheap, 3rd party models is the only way I could get my friends into the game. Because my friends were willing to get into the game, I bought the FOW rulebooks. So in a way, the cheap models gave them $60.

Mez

**Cwen**

Now that I've had a chance to read through the comments on the forums I'm not as annoyed now. The decision is not going to affect me in the way it would a tournament goer as I don't play I tournaments. Therefore I'm going to continue to buy their models as I think for what they produce they do a good job.

The thing I worry about is that I gave up GW stuff because of the way they did their business. They had a monopoly on the market, their models are very distinct and they have tried to copy write and protect absolutely everything. Their latest paint changes are just an example of this. They neglected a lot of the factions (Tau haven't had a new codex in years) and their policy of increasing prices every year is infuriating. I also read the bullying tactics they used against independent retailers and I hated the sales tactics employed by GW store staff.

Everything they did put me off wanting to contribute money to them.

I found Flames of War just before V3 came out. The first purchase I made was a Panzer IV H and it came with the free V3 softback rulebook. After building the Pz IV I wasnt too happy with the model itself so I decided to try Plastic Soldier Company. I loved their models as they were so crisp and clean which is what I wanted for my new army. However I have still ploughed loads more money into buying BF stuff as I liked their models and wanted to support them as a business with a good attitude to its clients.

With this move I feel uneasy and suspicious that they will turn into the nasty bully that GW has become. I would be punished if I wanted to play an official tournament because I have a model that I thought was superior quality (If a lot cheaper). If they end up becoming the new GW I would have to stop supporting them, which is something I dont want.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who sees it this way

**Sorry for the rant, but thats just my take on the whole thing.

**Big P**

Seems a rational point of view mate.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Couldnt resist posting this... A mate of mine who plays FOW sent me this;

It followed this post;

John Matthews the lead guy at BF USA HQ wrote:

The latest PR triumph for BF –

I'm going to refute some statements here but I'm sure that i will be told how wrong I am and how this is the end etc etc.

1. This is NOT a GW move! What would be a GW moved would be to cancel all GW run tournaments and the write 2 sets of rules that are very tournament/competitive unfriendly, close the official forum and bury my head in the sand. oh wait that's exactly what they did do! or you could try the other competitive system Privateer , good luck with using other models there at any and all events!

2. It's at our tournaments. if a TO wants his own regulations then choose them we will still offer support and prizes if asked. ( though to all you TO'S I'm going to run a quick scenario by you. At your tournament can i pay my mate Dave 60% and you 0% of the entry fee to come play at your event? i bet the answer is no and for exactly the same reason as we would like you to use our stuff you have bills to pay and what does Dave do for you with running this event)

3. This point I'm sure will be disbelieved by the vehement, we get quite a lot of people saying they don't enjoy playing against non battlefront miniatures and would love a way to mark opponents down for having them but feel they would be ridiculed, marked down themselves, called unsporting, labelled FANBOY so they keep quite just put up with it. However the players who are using other minis are making someone else's hobby less enjoyable, there are 2 sides always.

4. models we don't produce. i don't know yet. as for JU 88'S is there a list where you actually pay the points for these?

5. My last bit would be to say no one has yet given the reasons why we should allow other miniatures. some have given vague its helps get people into the hobby but nothing real ( i hate the idea is not going to cut it here) I suppose i would like conclude here by asking you to take a deep breath and ask yourself "if you owned a game company where your sole income came from, and people started doing to you what some of you are doing what would you do?"

sadly i expect i wont be surprised by the response's to my post

JM

Apologies to any offended FOW players.

**Cwen**

I've read all of his posts so far. He is not doing himself, or FoW any favours.

**SilverMK2**

Is it just me or did the bit about TO's just not make sense?

And if people were picking other model companies over my own, I would look at why, rather than carrying on as normal other than to ban people from using those other models in 'official' tournaments.

And people get upset if the person they are playing against has a slightly different 15mm scale version of exactly the same tank that BF make? Really? Pretty sure you would not be able to tell the majority of the time unless it was pointed out...

**Cleal Baros**

Alongside this I have it on good authority that Battlefront have aggressively approached a number of internet traders this week promising them access to new releases two weeks early so long as they stop stocking PSC.

I for one thought Battlefront better than this behavior and am quite disappointed in their conduct. Surely a far better approach would have been to knock on the PSC's door and ask the guy if he's ever thought about moving to New Zealand.

**Big P**

Oh yes, thats been happening.

Heard it from a few traders... Which led me to spend my day job looking up EU regulations on protectionism. Bad for traders and consumers that sort of behaviour.

As I know Will from PSC (spent last weekend with him at Bovington) I can safely say that he wouldnt be interested in moving to New Zealand. I also dont think there is any love lost seeing as John-Paul stated in a WWPD interview that PSC models were 'toys made in China' despite them being a totally UK designed and made product.

**George Spiggott**

Which one? Was that the one where he also suggested other kits are difficult to put together? Clearly John-Paul has never put together a Battlefront Panzer IV.

Where are Battlefront's kits manufactured? IIRC it's not in New Zealand.

**infinite_array**

George Spiggott wrote: IIRC it's not in New Zealand.

Malaysia, I believe.

**combat engineer**

Waiting for the die hards to throw their BF stuff on Bartertown for sale or trade.

Mat

**George Spiggott**

Nah. A 15mm WWII army is an investment for life. No matter who makes the minis there will always be a rule system.

Right now BF make my rules and some of my minis.

**LuciusAR**

Cleal Baros wrote:Alongside this I have it on good authority that Battlefront have aggressively approached a number of internet traders this week promising them access to new releases two weeks early so long as they stop stocking PSC.

What nasty bullying behavior. I hope non of my regular traders will colaborate.

15mm WW2 gaming is my primary gaming hobby today and must I admit that my choice of scale is most defiantly as a result of Flames of War, but recently I’m loathe to hand over money to Battlefront where an alternative exists. Plastic Soldier Company and Forged in Battle are getting most of my cash of late.

It’s also noticeable that neither Plastic Soldier Company or Forged in Battle are getting any coverage in Wargames Illustrated at all. WW2 in non 15mm scales seems to be getting featured but WI is just pretending that PSC and FIB don’t exist.

To be honest I only play FOW at my local club becuase thats the best way to get a game. Outside of that environement I prefer other rulesets that don't require umpteen suplements.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

George Spiggott wrote:Nah. A 15mm WWII army is an investment for life. No matter who makes the minis there will always be a rule system.

Right now BF make my rules and some of my minis.

Exactly. Even if they where to abandon BF completely there are other rules out there that they can use their old armies with.

Rapid Fire, Blitzkrieg Commander, I aint been shot yet mum, Kampfgroup Kursk, Battlefront WW2, Spearhead.......

No need to be straightjackected by BF.

**Makarov**

http://www.wwpd.net/2012/07/on-non-battlefront-models-in.html

I don't think it's a huge stretch to assume there are, of course, other motives at work here. Recouping some lost revenues as the competition has increased dramatically in the last years. Though this is speculation, I'd say there's pretty strong evidence of it.

Of course none of us truly know what kind of analysis was done before this, but I feel confident that the folks up top at Battlefront are competent. And that means they expected this push-back, crunched the numbers, and decided it was best for their business. As much as we may disagree with it, we aren't running the 2nd largest miniatures company in the world.

...

What can we do as a community? The most important thing anyone can do is to make their opinion heard by the right people. I don't mean go angrily rant on their forum. Angry forum rants are received the way they're posted- without much consideration. Tell your LGS. Vote with your dollar. Write reasoned, polite, and articulate e-mails.

Please don't take out your frustration on Battlefront employees at events. I'm sure a majority of them were not involved in this decision. They at least understand your frustrations. I don't envy Joe Krone, Jordan, and the rest of the crew at the upcoming Historicon. Please don't take out your anger on them!

**Phydox**

I can't help feeling irritated by this, even though it probably will never affect me.

After spending all those years playing GW stuff, and suffering through the Hate, it was actually refreshing when I went to FoW. I hope these GW like decisions don't add more GW like hate threads in this section.

**infinite_array**

Just wanted to point out, BKCII is on sale on pdf now for 12 pounds. I picked it up, and made up 2 2000 point army lists so I can experiment with 1944 Normandy Brits vs. Fallschirmjagers.

**Big P**

BKC II is an ace game.

Played it for years.

**Makarov**

I am kind of with BF on this. Though I do have some reservations. While the current change doesn't bother me that much, and BF is a LONG way from being GW (for example Easyarmy.com is allowed to exist, not suing PSC, etc.)I still be buy/enjoying their products, but I will be keeping my eyes open.

**Big P**

Makarov wrote:, not suing PSC, etc.

Wanna enlighten us on what exactly they can sue PSC for?

Cos I can tell you the answer now - Nothing.

**ArbeitsSchu**

I'm sure I've mentioned this before somewhere, but I'm always slightly saddened when official responses from high-up employees in large companies managed to fail so badly at basic punctuation and grammar. It seems...slightly unprofessional.

As for 'don't enjoy playing opposite non-BF miniatures'.. just LOL.

**Makarov**

Big P wrote:
Makarov wrote:, not suing PSC, etc.

Wanna enlighten us on what exactly they can sue PSC for?

Cos I can tell you the answer now - Nothing.

Fair enough. But, my other point still stands. I will in fact add to it

List of things that BF does/did that GW doesn't do or wouldn't do

-Allow 3rd party manufactures to exist (I admit WW 2 is public domain, but I still argue this point)
-Allow people to use their name/logos/etc.
-Allow Army builder to use represent their product
-Release stickers for their source book in response to fan criticism (ie Blitzkrieg)
-Allow easyarmy.com to exist
-Come up with free force lists and give them out on their website
-Allow older force lists to still be legal
-Gives away free main rulebooks
-Gave a way free blisters if you got your rulebook spiral bound and emailed them a picture of the receipt and a explication

**Palindrome**

Makarov wrote:
Fair enough. But, my other point still stands. I will in fact add to it

List of things that BF does/did that GW doesn't do or wouldn't do

-Allow 3rd party manufactures to exist (I admit WW 2 is public domain, but I still argue this point)
-Allow people to use their name/logos/etc.
-Allow Army builder to use represent their product
-Allow easyarmy.com to exist
-Come up with free force lists and give them out on their website
-Allow older force lists to still be legal
-Gives away free main rulebooks
-Gave a way free blisters if you got your rulebook spiral bound and emailed them a picture of the receipt and a explication

1. There is quite literally nothing that BF could do to stop other manufactuers making WWII miniatures. Nothing.
2. OK, although alot of their logos are public domain as well.
3. OK, but so do GW.
4. I wonder for how much longer?
5. OK
6. Older BF lists, while still usable, are significantly under powerered compared to newer lists. Are old GW codices actually illegal?
7. My 'free' rulebook fell apart before I had even read it once.
8. I didn't know about that.

BF have always been the GW of historicals; initially that was a good thing but over the last couple of years they have started to emulate GW's bad points as well.