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Unsure if any one has ever pointed this out before but I noticed while reading through Space marines Codex that Sternguard get incredibly cheap heavy weapons. missile launchers and multi-meltas for a third the price, plasma cannons 15 points cheaper and lascannons 20 points cheaper as well. If a squad of sternguard take the 2 heavy weapons allowed they will generally be just slightly more expensive then a devastator squad. However inversely the Marines without heavy weapons will get special ammunition and they are veterans so they have 2 attacks base. Seems like the stern guard squad could be a decently heavy support option without using the heavy slot and being more flexible then devastators. The only real advantages I could see of the devastators are the ability to bring 4 heavy weapons, the signum and possibly the fact that they are a heavy support. I guess the Extra heavy weapons could make the biggest difference. I dont see the signum as being that huge of a deal though its is undoubtedly effective. As for them being a heavy choice, maybe its just my army but I've never been in such a need for my elite slots that I didn't have one to spare.

my simplest breakdown can come to this

sternguard - 5 veterans- 2 misslelauncher/multimeltas/heavybolters = 135 pts

Devastators - 4 marines,1 sergeant- 2 Misslelaunchers/multimeltas/heavybolter = 120 pts

I guess for that extra 15 pts you could have another heavy weapon. I still see this as a very valid alternative to the devastators. It easily becomes a medium level threat in all ranges. Missile launchers can reach out to down targets up to 48" away. Bolter rounds can touch threats at 30" though become deadly at 12" and finally they have a little extra punch in CC with base 2 attacks. Over all its a very versatile unit.

Well whats every ones take on this idea. Is it something old that I've missed repeatedly. Do you believe it could be effective easily or is it just purely fantasy of my over active mind.

Surprise, Devastators are terribly overcosted in C:SM. Sternguard are actually one of the strongest Elite choices in the book, mostly because combi-meltas mean they can shoot ANYTHING and do damage. The two heavies also let them fire both from a rhino hatch, which was a lot better in 5th.

I've seen it done, it works. One thing to consider is the sternguard take up an elite slot, which IMHO is far more valuable then a HS pick.

And the sternguard are limeted to two heavy picks, sometimes the four the devs bring is very nice

It has been noted before. It gave DoA lists up to three more FNP heavy weapon units.
Not sure DoA still does it for any one any more.

In C:SM it is awesome for pedro, you can either combat squad 2 heavy weapons or just have a slot out right and put them on an objective.
This is probably cool in this edition.

Also if you had three thunderfire cannons, then have the space to put some heavy weapon infantry to help them, protect them and shoot antitank was useful.
The slight rise of infantry and termies, and most importantly less dynamic deployments and fortifications mean this could be ideal.

Works nice in a Pedro list. Put a couple heavy weapons in and use them to hold a backfield objective. They got the offense shooting to cut down units getting close and the defense power to hold up in an assault.

I disagree here. You don't buy devastators for two heavy weapons, you buy them to get four. We're talking four missile launchers at 130 or two at 135. If you're not picking the first option here, you're not picking the optimal choice for long range support (if your goal isn't long range support, that's fine). The last thing is that Devs give you the extra BS skill shot, which makes 3 launchers 1 Lascannon a great choice.

The second thing is that the number of attacks they have shouldn't be relevant as you're playing your Devs wrong if they're in close combat.

Third thing is that there is a gametype where heavies are scoring, which increases their value een more.

Another advantage is in the mission Big Guns never Tire, if you take the Sternguard in lieu of heavies, you wont give up any extra Victory points...

Stoffer wrote:I disagree here. You don't buy devastators for two heavy weapons, you buy them to get four. We're talking four missile launchers at 130 or two at 135. If you're not picking the first option here, you're not picking the optimal choice for long range support (if your goal isn't long range support, that's fine). The last thing is that Devs give you the extra BS skill shot, which makes 3 launchers 1 Lascannon a great choice.

The second thing is that the number of attacks they have shouldn't be relevant as you're playing your Devs wrong if they're in close combat.

Third thing is that there is a gametype where heavies are scoring, which increases their value een more.

Actually points wise you are incorrect. you could squeeze in 3 missile launchers for 135 on a dev squad verses the 2 missile launchers on a sternguard for the same price. Getting the 4th missile launcher would require you to spend 150. Also I'm not saying that your support should be charging into every close combat but how many times do devastators get left in the back field only to soon decimated by a outflanking or deepstriking opponent. This way if such happens your support will be able to actually be able to put up some sort of fight instead of folding like paper. Hell with any luck perhaps the sternguard could even kill the attackers. They would certainly be able to soften them up with a round of shooting first and being sternguard they can do significant damage to anything that isn't in TDA. Especially since not even outflankers can charge on the turn they come in.( This severely angers me and makes no sense at all except to destroy the tactics over all effectiveness.) The entire idea I had behind this was to have en extremely flexible squad that could even outshine a tac squad in many ways.

I have fielded a marine gunline using three minmaxed sterngaurd squads. It works very well, much better than if using dev. squads though they can be used together to add in lots of ML and HB goodness.

Dont forget that you can also purchase a combi weapon for the squads. I have put combi plasma in the mix before. Now with Termis being what they are the combi plas seems a very effective option.

If you're going shooty, don't look it as one or the other, take both.
In a heavy shooty craze,
3x5 sternguards with 2x ML each,
3x10 devistators with 4x ML each

Just under 1100 points, and you can combat squad to have 9 units of 5 men with 2 missile launchers each.

-Matt

If you're looking at a Devastator squad with 2 heavy weapons vs a Sternguard Squad with 2 heavy weapons, you always will want a Sternguard squad, as their costs are cheaper, along with added upgrades/bonuses of Sternguard. I figured this out when i made an all foot list that had lots of 5 man sternguard/Devastator squads to use all the models I owned.

I use both for differents purposes... at 2k I rock two five man dev squads for long range support and two ten man sternguard squads(x2 heavy flamers, x8 combiflamers in each) that pod in on turn 1... The look ;on your opponents face when you drop 20 flamers on turn 1 and now that casualties are taken from the front they allow you to clear one hell of a drop zone for the tac squads in pods. All be it if I don't have good targets for flamers I land and shoot helfire rounds and use all those flamers for overwatch... so far it has devistated my opponents.

dmthomas7 wrote:

Stoffer wrote:I disagree here. You don't buy devastators for two heavy weapons, you buy them to get four. We're talking four missile launchers at 130 or two at 135. If you're not picking the first option here, you're not picking the optimal choice for long range support (if your goal isn't long range support, that's fine). The last thing is that Devs give you the extra BS skill shot, which makes 3 launchers 1 Lascannon a great choice.

The second thing is that the number of attacks they have shouldn't be relevant as you're playing your Devs wrong if they're in close combat.

Third thing is that there is a gametype where heavies are scoring, which increases their value een more.

Actually points wise you are incorrect. you could squeeze in 3 missile launchers for 135 on a dev squad verses the 2 missile launchers on a sternguard for the same price. Getting the 4th missile launcher would require you to spend 150. Also I'm not saying that your support should be charging into every close combat but how many times do devastators get left in the back field only to soon decimated by a outflanking or deepstriking opponent. This way if such happens your support will be able to actually be able to put up some sort of fight instead of folding like paper. Hell with any luck perhaps the sternguard could even kill the attackers. They would certainly be able to soften them up with a round of shooting first and being sternguard they can do significant damage to anything that isn't in TDA. Especially since not even outflankers can charge on the turn they come in.( This severely angers me and makes no sense at all except to destroy the tactics over all effectiveness.) The entire idea I had behind this was to have en extremely flexible squad that could even outshine a tac squad in many ways.

Ah yeah sorry, I play BA so my dev squads are 130 points with missile launchers

I usually run three squads of devs so I virtually never have anything come close and survive. If I'm facing an army with a lot of jumpers I tend to leave a squad behind to defend anyway. If you're facing a close combat army going for your 5 man heavy weapons squad, that extra attack won't really do anything anyway. It's trying to apply as many different roles to a single unit as possible, which ends up being inefficient.

I am looking through my dark angels codex, I can't find sternguard anywhere...[/end dark angels joke]

Well my thought is that with the sternguards extra attacks it will actually require your opponent to bring a unit with some form of CC prowess to do any damage to your heavy weapons. Sternguard by far are never supposed to be great in CC but they are atleast survivable. Unfortunately last night in my test game using this tactic my Sternguard shot worse then Orks. though I believe they still claimed the life of a furioso dread. They were able to still provide support from a static position using the missles and kraken rounds. They were at least able to add a bit more fire weight to the battle. seems to be a promising tactic overall

Stoffer wrote:I disagree here. You don't buy devastators for two heavy weapons, you buy them to get four. We're talking four missile launchers at 130 or two at 135. If you're not picking the first option here, you're not picking the optimal choice for long range support (if your goal isn't long range support, that's fine). The last thing is that Devs give you the extra BS skill shot, which makes 3 launchers 1 Lascannon a great choice.

The second thing is that the number of attacks they have shouldn't be relevant as you're playing your Devs wrong if they're in close combat.

Third thing is that there is a gametype where heavies are scoring, which increases their value een more.

A perfect explanation on why you use devs, honestly the main reason i don't use them is i run a pedro list, and take 2 las preds in my list, and scouts to fill up my 2 troops which can take a missile each i think. I think the two heavy weapons that the sterngaurd can take are just make their unit even more balanced. They can be used for close range to some degree, being given 2 attacks base. They are good medium range shooting units, and the heavy weapons just help them be more long range support.